John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #890537
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  And there is no proof that God created these gods (or angels) which you claim as immortals.

    Adam, you didn’t actually SAY anything in that post.  You quoted some source that opines that Yahweh is talking to human rulers in Psalm 82.  That’s utterly nonsensical, and we can delve deeper into that if you’d like.

    For now, the answer to the above (which is the only thought you offered on the matter) is in Psalm 82, in the words… “I have called you gods, but you will die like mortal men.”

    Not only does that make clear that God wasn’t talking to men (who would have died like mortal men anyway), but it also makes clear that the gods Yahweh was talking to were NOT subject to death, and therefore His judgement was that they would be destroyed and die like mortal men by His power (not natural death like all mortal men already suffer).  Creatures who are not subject to natural or accidental death are “immortal”.

    And although I find it funny that you would quote an NT verse to support your argument, 1 Timothy 6:16 refers to God’s immortality, which cannot be taken away by anyone.  The immortality of God’s sons can be ended by God if He so chooses.

    Here’s what God says in Enoch to the gods who mated with human women…

    Enoch 15…  And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you…

    God gave men wives to beget children because men die.  He did not give His spirit sons wives to beget children because they are immortal. God’s punishment on these gods was that they be bound and imprisoned until judgement day, when they’ll be cast into the lake of fire and perish.

    #890539
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #890540
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    Prov 8:22…  Yahweh created me as the first of His works…

    ME: The above translation is the least popular of all translations!

    But let’s see what this verse actually says!

    First and foremost JESUS IS A PERFECT PARADOX!

    Thus Jesus is both created and not created!

    the fact that all is created by him, in him, and for him!

    Mike, We have a soul, the soul is of God, a spirit creature, the soul was born in us,  but in actual fact, it is also not born, as the soul existed before our birth, and entered into us through the sperm at the moment of conception. Thus the soul is created AS  A HUMAN BEING  precisely on the birth of a human being!  but in actual fact, the soul is not created at that moment in time of birth, but well before, NO?

    Now let’s read the above verse from within this perception.

    Yahweh created me as the first of His works…

    …….AS THE FIRST OF HIS WORKS!

    GOT IT, Mike?

    WHAT WAS THE FIRST OF GOD’S WORKS?

    LUCIFER!

    THE LIGHT BRINGER! THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT!

    WHY HE IS CALLED AS SUCH, OBVIOUS BECAUSE THE TRUE LIGHT, THE TRUE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, WAS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, JESUS AS A SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE,  

    THE SPIRIT OF THE SON, IN LUCIFER’S HEART AT ALL COSTS.

    Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.

     7Therefore now he is not a servant, but a son.

    And if a son, an heir also through God.

    SIMPLY SO LUCIFER WOULD NEVER BE ERADICATED TOTALLY BY GOD WITH THE LEAST INTENTION OF SIN IN HIS HEART SINCE HIS SON IS SACRIFICED IN LUCIFER, PRECISELY IN LUCIFER’S HEART, AS ETERNAL LIFE,

    IT WOULD BE A SUICIDE, NO?

    TO ERADICATE HIS OWN SPOKEN WORD, HIS SON, JESUS, DIVINE!

    GOD ALL-KNOWING THE SON OF MAN TO BE,

    BECAUSE OF A MERE CREATURE, SATAN TO BE,  THE FACT THT JESUS WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev 13:8.  PRECISELY TO REDEEM LUCIFER/SATAN IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, ON THE CROSS!

    You:

    Psalm 2:7… You are my son.  This very day I have brought you forth into existence…

    THE ABOVE IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY! 

    READ THIS TRANSLATION:

    7The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

    THE TERM BEGOTTEN OF GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TERM BEGOTTEN OF MAN!

    IN THE SAME WAY, JESUS WAS NOT BORN AS A HUMAN BEING WAS, THROUGH SEX,  BUT OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT

    AS A SPIRIT OUT OF MARY FIRST,  THE LIGHT! READ:

    John12:46 I have come into the world AS LIGHT,

    Then God the Father furnished Jesus with His flesh, 

    THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE! SO THE FATHER WOULD BE OUR SAVIOUR!well clear in,

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:

    but a body thou hast fitted to me:

    Nevertheless still, A SON OF ABRAHAM, and A SON OF DAVID. 

    Micah 5:2… His origin is from days of old, ancient times…

    ME:  AND HOW!

    Col 1:15…  He is the firstborn of every creature…

    ME: AND THE FIRST CREATURE WAS LUCIFER! THUS

    JESUS WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF LUCIFER! OF EVERY CREATURE ALL IN LUCIFER, IN RELATION TO THE LIGHT/WISDOM!

    HUMANITY!

    Matthew 5:14You are the light of the world….

    YOU: Rev 3:14… I am the beginning of the creation by God…

    ME: THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD IS LUCIFER!

    THE LIGHT-BRINGER, THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, THE MORNING STAR!

    THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF “THE WORD”, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN.

    THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS!

    THUS JESUS WAS IN LUCIFER HIS CREATOR IN HIS HEART, IN THE SAME WAY, HE WOULD ALSO BE IN HUMANS ON THEIR CONCEPTION AT ALL COSTS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #890541
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Actually, I’m declaring that Jesus is neither “God”, nor “mankind”.  He is the mediator BETWEEN those two parties. 

    No mediator can BE one of the parties that he mediates BETWEEN.

    ME: PERFECT Mike!

    JESUS IS NEITHER ONE NOR THE OTHER, TO BE CLEAR,

    JESUS IS NEITHER  GOD, NOR MAN, BUT

    BOTH! 

    BOTH VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE!  THE FATHER AND HUMANS ARE NOT

    BOTH A FATHER AND  A SON!  THE FATHER AND HUMANS ARE NOT

    BOTH  SPIRIT AND FLESH! THE FATHER AND HUMANS ARE NOT

    BOTH GOD AND MAN! THE FATHER AND HUMANS ARE NOT! HE IS UNIQUE

    GODMAN!

    JESUS THEREFORE IS THE ONE AND ONLY

    PERFECT MEDIATOR

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    but God is one. 

    As clear as crystal Mike, A MEDIATOR  MUST BE ACCEPTED FROM BOTH PARTIES NO?

    NOW SINCE GOD IS ONE, HE  ACCEPTS ONLY HIS OWN MEDIATOR,

    HIS OWN DIVINE SON,  NO ONE ELSE IS JUSTIFIED!

    Now, Could you expand and explain what you mean, please.

    TO ME IT’S PURE NONSENSE!

    ALL PARTIES INVOLVED IN THE DISPUTE ARE ALL HUMANS! NO!

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT A MEDIATOR BETWEEN TWO MEN MUST BE A GAY!

    OK! LET’S BE MORE PRACTICAL,

    THERE IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN A LAWYER AND AN ARCHITECT !

    DO YOU MEAN THAT A MEDIATOR CANNOT BE  ANOTHER  LAWYER OR ANOTHER ARCHITECT?

    ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE MEDIATOR HAPPENED TO BE BOTH A LAWYER AND AN ARCHITECT,  DOESN’T MEAN THAT HE WOULD BE MORE IN THE POSITION TO UNDERSTAND AND SOLVE THE DISPUTE SINCE HE WOULD BE EXPERIENCED IN BOTH PROFESSIONS?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #890544
    gadam123
    Participant

    And although I find it funny that you would quote an NT verse to support your argument, 1 Timothy 6:16 refers to God’s immortality, which cannot be taken away by anyone.  The immortality of God’s sons can be ended by God if He so chooses.

    Here’s what God says in Enoch to the gods who mated with human women…

    Hi Mike, yes I have quoted the NT to show you the reference on immortality as your beliefs are based on the NT and where the writer of the 1 Timothy states that God alone is immortal.

    The so called Pseudo writing, the book of Enoch is a non-canonical book and if you want to base your arguments you can find many such books during the Intertestamental period.

    I was arguing that God is not a man (or can not become a man). An immortal being can not become mortal if so there is no meaning of immortality. If Jesus was literally begotten from God and is another immortal being, how can he leave his immortality and become like a man and die like a mortal?

    So these are my arguments.

    #890548
    gadam123
    Participant

    Please first prove that God actually exists via the Hebrew Bible.

    It’s funny too as you are avoiding my question on Jesus’ Messiahship. I need not prove the existence of God based on Hebrew Bible as it’s also the part of the Christian Bible.

    #890549
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    An immortal being can not become mortal.

    Being immortal doesn’t discount shedding your body for a new one. That is merely physical death.

    Jesus is still alive.

    #890550
    gadam123
    Participant

    Being immortal doesn’t discount shedding your body for a new one. That is merely physical death.

    Jesus is still alive.

    Hi Proclaimer, do you mean Jesus did not really die like any mortal?

    You are talking like a person who believes in the immortality of the soul and reincarnation. We have such beliefs in our Hinduism.

    #890552
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m making the point that immortality is eternal life. And some people here in these forums have eternal life, yet they will also physically die.

    #890553
    gadam123
    Participant

    I’m making the point that immortality is eternal life. And some people here in these forums have eternal life, yet they will also physically die.

    I am sorry your earlier post was sounding like immortality of soul and reincarnation. Yes the immortality means no more mortality and may be it is also eternal life.

    So what is your opinion on Jesus in this context?

    #890554
    gadam123
    Participant

    In other words, your source did nothing to refute my own belief that Ps 2:7 is Jesus telling how God brought him forth as the first of His works, making Jesus’ sonship much more literal than, say, David’s or the nation of Israel’s.

    Hi Mike, my source was arguing against the literal sons of God in the Hebrew Bible and the context of Ps 2 was about the Coronation of the Jewish King, David.

    First answer to LU on her question of ‘this day’ which the Psalm 2 was talking about.

    #890555
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Man by default is not immortal

    I am sorry your earlier post was sounding like immortality of soul and reincarnation. Yes the immortality means no more mortality and may be it is also eternal life.  So what is your opinion on Jesus in this context?

    It is a popular doctrine that man’s soul is immortal and thus when they go to Hell, they are alive in Hell for eternity. This is not biblical at all. As for Jesus, he was without sin. He is the final Adam. He is in this respect what Adam should have been.

    Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.
    And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever…”
    Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    #890558
    gadam123
    Participant

    It is a popular doctrine that man’s soul is immortal and thus when they go to Hell, they are alive in Hell for eternity. This is not biblical at all.

    Yes the immortality of soul was originated in Greek mythology and based on Platonic idea. I find most of the Christianity too believe this idea and even some of the texts of the NT seem to support this idea.

    As for Jesus, he was without sin. He is the final Adam. He is in this respect what Adam should have been.

    Your above statement on Jesus is reasonable as long as he was not preexisting prior to his birth like any human being as Adam was not preexisting otherwise it proves the immortality of soul for Jesus to keep his previous identity.

    #890568
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.    

    Jesus is not among the creatures who give glory to God and to the Lamb, because HE IS not a creature…

    This is a valid argument, Berean.  It is way better than your usual arguments where you quote scriptures that don’t actually say/mean what you claim they do.  But consider…

    Phil 2:9-11…  Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    If Jesus is not among those who bend the knee before Jesus, does it mean it’s because he doesn’t have knees?  Or is Jesus excluded from the bowing because of a more logical reason?  I say Jesus is excluded – not because he is the only member of heaven without knees – but because, although he has knees, it would be absurd for him to bow to himself.  Would you agree with that?

    If so, then we can use that same logical reasoning to address your argument, right?  Perhaps Jesus is not among the creatures who proclaim glory and honor to the Lamb – not because he isn’t a creature – but because it would be absurd for the Lamb to sing praises and blessings to himself.

    Also consider…

    Acts 4:24-30…  “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…  Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed…   stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”

    If your verse insists that Jesus is not among those who were created by God, then this prayer insists that Jesus was among those who were created by God – since he is clearly a part of “everything in them” that was made by God.

     

    #890570
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Gene, why can’t you understand that passage as it is written – without adding your own twists into it?

    Gene:  Mike…..All things came from heaven, that exists on this earth even us. 

    This is one of those twists I was talking about, Gene.  Can you show me from scripture that all things come from heaven, including us?

    Gene:  Jesus said even his disciples were from above…

    I’d like to see that scripture too.

    Gene:  That simply means they were in the plan and purpose of God the Father , who is above,  before the world ever existed, we all were in his plan, before  this world ever existed.

    More twisting.  Gene, is it your argument that the Jews to whom Jesus said, “I have come down from heaven” were not as smart as you, because they thought Jesus was literally saying he came down from heaven when he was really only saying that ALL OF US came down from heaven because we existed in a plan that God had before this world ever existed?

    Why do you think Jesus didn’t correct them and just explain it to them like you have explained it to me?  Instead, he kept on claiming that he came down from heaven – even after he knew they were taking his claim literally.  Is it even remotely possible that he did that because he was making a literal claim?

    #890571
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Hi Mike,

    The statement “today I have begotten you”… was said on the resurrection day. Jesus was begotten from the dead and thus firstborn from the dead.

    Show me in scripture that this is when the statement was actually made.

    LU:  Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.

    Correct – which argues against your understanding of what I presume to be Acts 13:33.  It would be odd to claim that Jesus became “the begotten son of God” by being raised from the dead, especially when we know that God sent His only-begotten into the world, and that God offered up His only-begotten as a sacrifice to atone for our sins – both of which happened before he was raised from the dead.

    The only logical understanding of Ps 2:7 is that the words were originally said on the very day that God created Jesus as the first of His works.

    #890572
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Was Jesus begotten from the grave? If so, by whom?

    #890573
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    You

    Perhaps Jesus is not among the creatures who proclaim glory and honor to the Lamb – not because he isn’t a creature – but because it would be absurd for the Lamb to sing praises and blessings to himself.

     

    Me

    If Jesus was a creature before HIS incarnation

    he could not become the savior of the world, and therefore be worshiped from his birth on earth.

    BUT BECAUSE Jesus covered our humanity on his divinity, HE WAS  QUALIFIED TO BECOME THE SAVIOR IF THE WORLD 👇

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him(form of God) the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    BUT THIS WAS NOT ENOUGH:👇


    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

     

    #890574
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: The statement “today I have begotten you” is not said after Jesus’ baptism.

    Me: I agree 100%.

    YOU: That was said on the resurrection day.

    Me: In view of the above it is not as simple as it looks. 

    IN FULL HUMILITY AND THANKS FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO ENLIGHTENED ME, A MERE MORTAL AND SINNER,

    ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY  IN THIS REGARD THE HIDDEN THINGS OF GOD!

    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones. 26Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight.

    Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead.

    Jesus mentioned this phrase “risen from the dead” after the transfiguration. He also mentioned the term

    “the Son of Man”. It was Jesus the Son of Man “THE WORD” that died not the Son of God, the Holy Ghost attributed to the Son, in Jesus’soul, as He could not die since He is a spirit! The transfiguration is definitely a clear reference to the Son of God, asserted by God Himself. Thus Jesus on mount Tabor anticipated His glorification ON HIS DEATH, John13:31-32, John17:1,  both spirit, and flesh, both the Holy Ghost and “THE WORD” INTEGRATED AS ONE GLORIFIED

    GODMAN!

    Jesus was never required to be resurrected since He glorified immediately by death itself by which He eradicated death, and transformed it into life, manifested on earth by those saints who came out from their graves risen from the dead. EVEN BEFORE JESUS, THE SON OF MAN DID. Why didn’t Jesus also from the cross come back to life after He died, what was the reason that He didn’t do so, He definitely could, since HE WAS GLORIFIED AND IN FULL POWER! 

    Jesus, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, died and gave Himself as a ransom IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE. To be clear, in order to give His dead body to the human race, well asserted in the last supper by His own words:

    ….THIS IS MY BODY WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU…..

    Precisely on His resurrection. Jesus, the Son of Man, in order to resurrect and give His body to the human race, he could only do so BY HIS OWN SPIRIT, SIMPLY AS ONLY HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD” WAS ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES and sealed in the entire process of the world, ALL IN HIM, and ALL BY HIM. Well HINTED OUT by Jesus’own words on the cross,

    …..into thy hands I commend MY SPIRIT. And saying this, he gave up THE GHOST.

    The Holy Ghost in Jesus’soul.

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, Rev.13:8 precisely ETERNAL LIFE, engrafted in all souls/spirits from the very beginning, in Lucifer, the original spirit of the human race in flesh and blood. Jesus declared that flesh counts for nothing it is THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE. It is His spirit that gave life to His own dead body, John10:18, and this spirit was allocated to the human race from the beginning as ETERNAL LIFE, DURING THE PROCESS OF CREATION OF WHICH  SPIRIT JESUS EMPTIED HIMSELF FROM HIS DIVINITY AND BECAME  PRECISELY

    THE  SON OF MAN!

    YOU: Jesus was begotten from the dead and thus firstborn from the dead.

    Now this term “FROM THE DEAD” is a reference to ALL SOULS SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH WITH SATAN’S SPIRIT IN THEIR SOULS ON ADAM’S SIN! SATAN’S PROPERTY, IN A WAY AS “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be,  was both in Satan’s heart of stone and in all souls, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…..Rev.13:8, purposely humbly and meekly waited for that hour of His death on the cross, to both glorify and redeem the human race! John17:1,2.  More specifically mentioned in

    John12:23 But Jesus answered them, saying: The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, 25Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, keepeth it unto life eternal. 26If any man minister to me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall my minister be. If any man minister to me, him will my Father honour.

    27Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause I came unto this hour. 28Father, glorify thy name. A voice therefore came from heaven: I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29The multitude therefore that stood and heard, said that it thundered. Others said: An angel spoke to him. 30Jesus answered, and said:

    THIS VOICE CAME NOT BECAUSE OF ME, BUT FOR YOUR SAKE.

     31Now is the judgment of the world:

    now shall the prince of this world be cast out. (FROM ALL SOULS, AND THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, asserted hereunder:)

    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. 

    YOU: Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.

    The above Lu, as a reference to Jesus’dead body, IS NOT QUITE PRECISE!

    Jesus, THE SON OF GOD, THE HOLY GHOST, IN JESUS’SOUL, Jesus’divine nature, was/is definitely THE FATHER’S SON, ETERNALLY, AND NEVER BEGOTTEN! But when we talk about “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, Jesus, the Son of Man, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, is a completely different story altogether, as “THE WORD”Jesus, left the Father’s MOUTH, emptied himself OF HIS DIVINITY, He poured His entire spirit over creation, ETERNAL LIFE, John 6:27, by which process He became a carrier of both good and evil, was born in all things like humans, EXCEPT SIN, and He died the death. Consequently, this spirit “THE WORD” spoken of God, the Son of Man, engrafted in all souls SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, ORIGINALLY SLAIN ….Rev.13:8

    WAS NOT SLAIN ANY MORE but glorified John13-31-32 and became ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST

    HENCE ALIVE AND ACTIVE, Hebrews 4:12, thus once Jesus, was taken by Satan, as his NORMAL procedure for the last time, into hell as a criminal, JESUS, TRANSFORMED HIMSELF INTO THE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY ANTICIPATED BY JESUS ON MOUNT TABOR! Jesus preached His Gospel to all those in hell, 1Peter3:18-19, now keep in mind, “THE WORD” Jesus’spirit was ALIVE AND ACTIVE IN THEM, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME SINCE THE REBEL IN HEAVEN, John8:23-26,  thus, as soon as they heard Jesus’VOICE and His “WORDS” all shouted and said

    JESUS SON OF DAVID HAVE MERCY ON ME!

    John 10:27 My sheep HEAR MY VOICE: and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME.

    John5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the DEAD (SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN HELL AND ON EARTH) shall hear the voice of the Son of God, (NOTICE THE SON OF GOD, a reference to the Holy Ghost,  NOT THE SON OF MAN, SINCE JESUS BODY WAS IN HIS TOMB)  and

    they that hear shall live. 

    Now in verse 27, Jesus made clear and said:

    And he hath given him power to do judgment,

    because he is the Son of man.

    OK? as clear as crystal JESUS WENT TO HELL GLORIFIED BOTH THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN, BOTH SPIRIT IN THE HOLY GHOST AND FLESH IN “THE WORD” made flesh. Satan’s dream!

    Satan stunned, simply accepted THE TRUTH, that he was eradicated from all souls, HIS suppossed PROPERTY, Luke17: 20-37, Mark 3:27, but the most vital:

    Jesus, glorified SON OF GOD/THE SON OF MAN  was 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD  GLORIFIED IN HIS DIVINE/HUMAN SPIRITUAL FLESH, by which task GOD THE FATHER WAS KNOWN FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME  AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, even before the world was John 17:5, John13:31-32, John17:10. 

    Jesus’ dead body was not in the position to come back to life immediately, despite the fact that HE HAD THE POWER,  at least not before Jesus was confirmed precisely in hell, Satan’s headquarters, that HE WAS THE TRUTH GLORIFIED AS

    GODMAN!

    At that moment in time, Unique both in hell and on earth, for forty days, by which task Jesus became the sole sovereign over the entire cosmos, God’s kingdom came, God’s will was on earth as it is in heaven, Thus after TRUTH was confirmed and justified, as Jesus Himself predicted, on the third day, His dead body  received ATTENTION PLEASE,

    His own spirit,

    originally slain from the beginning of the world,

    IN ALL THE DEAD SOULS. Both in hell and on earth, which means that

    the entire human race was embodied  and resurrected ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS in

    Jesus’body! AS DECLARED BY JESUS in the last supper.

    1Peter1:3 Blessed be THE God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath REGENERATED us unto a lively hope,

    by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Reflect on the above: Jesus glorified on the cross as

    JESUS CHRIST,

    GODMAN, and at the same time,

    JESUS’SPIRIT, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, SLAIN….. Rev.13:8 IN ALL SOULS, ORIGINALLY DEAD,

    ALSO GLORIFIED IN 

    JESUS CHRIST DESPITE SLAIN and also from WITHIN THE DEAD SOULS!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN DIED, JESUS THE SON OF GOD GLORIFIED IN BOTH NATURES, BY WHICH GLORY JESUS’SPIRIT SLAIN IN ALL DEAD SOULS, BECAME ALIVE AND GLORIFIED.

    2Corinthians 12:9And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee;

    for power is made perfect in infirmity…..

    10…For when I am weak, then am I powerful.

    In view of all the above, Jesus on His resurrection, though the same Jesus who died on the cross, body-wise, as a substance, was the entire human race, 1Peter 1:3, hence NOT PERFECT YET,

    ONLY GOD IS PERFECT! Precisely

    THE HOLY GHOST ONE SUBSTANCE WITH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, in

    JESUS CHRIST  ON JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS

    GODMAN!

    The Holy Ghost possessed for the first-ever time A FLESH BODY! Acts 20:28

    THUS BOTH JESUS’RESURRECTED BODY,

    the man born again from the dead, John3:3, THE NEW ADAM,

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN ON THE CROSS WERE NOT TWO ANYMORE but INTEGRATED and BECAME 

    TWO IN ONE  GLORIFIED DIVINE/HUMAN SPIRITUAL FLESH, WITH

    ONE DIVINE/CREATURE HEART! that same evening of Jesus’ resurrection, 

    Jeremiah 32:39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me all days 

    Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them ONE HEART, and will put a NEW SPIRIT in their bowels: and I will take away the STONY heart out of their flesh, and will give them

    A HEART OF FLESH: 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ONE SUBSTANCE WITH JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN. 

    You are my Son, today I have begotten you.

    This glorified body of Jesus Christ, ONE SUBSTANCE with the entire humanity would eventually be HANDED OVER BY JESUS TO

    GOD THE FATHER on the last day of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    HUMANITY ONE WITH GOD THE FATHER IN

    THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    John16:25 These things I have spoken to you in proverbs. The hour cometh, when I will no more speak to you in proverbs,

    but will shew you plainly of the Father.

    Jeremiah: 32:27 Behold I am THE LORD THE God of all flesh:

    shall anything be hard for me? 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #890575
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus is both the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn from the dead. Some people think this is the same thing. but clearly it is not as this scripture mentions both.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church;
    AND He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
    so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 

    So he is both:

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
    AND He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,

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