John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #873183
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    1 Timothy 6:20-21… O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions from science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

    I do my own science, and have found absolutely nothing that contradicts the world God described through Moses and other Bible writers.

    How about you?  Have you personally verified anything regarding the scientific claims of godless men that contradict scripture?  Of course not.  These godless men show you CGI of a circle that they say is an actual photograph of the “planet Pluto” – and you blindly believe even as they laugh at you by putting the Disney character Pluto right in the image!

    I had a telescope and the moon look like that, except it had a mouse on it because it is made of cheese.

    Further, I also love to take photos. Here is a photo of Mt Taranaki in New Zealand taken from over the curve. How do I know? Because the photo below makes the peak to the right look like an island. The one on the left is Kapiti Island. The peak on the right is not an island at all. It is a huge conical volcano sitting in the middle of farmland. That land is out of view because it is over the curve. There you go. Science.

    And my other photo of Mt Ruapehu proved you wrong too. Dan gave you a science lesson that you had no come back on.

    Then there are the boat races that go around the Southern Hemisphere where distances and times they travel agree with the globe and not this vast distance that the flat earth would have us believe. And of course, my friends dad has been to the South Pole. I think these alone debunk your flat earth for me.

    Notice I didn’t include satellite, plane routes, and all the other stuff that kicks the flat earth into the middle of next week.

    And here is Mt Taranaki close up. Now you can see the land and the bottom part of the mountain.

    mount-taranaki-lonely-mountain

    #873184
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    IS CHRIST A BEING
    CREATED ?
    …… We must dwell for a few moments on an opinion which is
    honestly supported by many who would not dishonor Christ
    voluntarily, but who, because of that opinion, actually deny His Divinity.
    It is the idea that Christ is a created being, who, by the good pleasure of God, was lifted up
    to His sublime present position. No one who shares this opinion
    can truly understand the high position Christ occupies
    in fact.
    The opinion in question is based on a misinterpretation of the text alone
    of Revelation 3:14: “Write also to the angel of the church in Laodicea: This is what says
    the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God “.
    This is misinterpreted as meaning that Christ is the first being
    that God created; that God’s work of creation began with Him. But this
    opinion is contrary to the texts of Scripture which state that Christ himself
    created all things. Saying that God began His work of creation as a creator
    Christ is to leave Christ entirely out of the work of creation.
    The word translated as “beginning” is “ark” which means “head” or “chief”. I
    appears in the name of the Greek governor Archon, in Archbishop, and in the
    archangel word. Let us see this last word. Christ is the Archangel. See Jude 9; 1
    Theses. 4:16; Jn 5:28, 29; Dan. 10:21 am. It does not mean that he is the first
    angels, for He is not an angel, but He is above them. This means
    that He is the chief or prince of the angels, just as an archbishop is the
    head of bishops. Christ is the “head” of the angels (see Rev. 19: 11-14). He created the
    angels (Col. 1:16). Likewise, the assertion that He is the beginning or the head
    of the creation of God, means that in Him the creation found its beginning;
    that as he himself says, He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end,
    the first and the last (Rev. 21: 6; 22:13). He is the source where all things
    find their origin.
    Neither should we imagine that Christ is a creature, because Paul
    calls him: “the firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15), because the following verses
    saying that He is the creator, and not a creature. “For it is through Him that were
    created all things in the heavens and in the earth, the visible and the invisible, thrones, dignities, dominations, authorities. All was created by him and for him. He is
    before all things, and all things subsist in Him. “Now, if He created all
    things that were never created, and if He existed before all created things, He is
    evident that He is not one of the created things. He is above all
    creation, and He is not a part of that creation.
    The Scriptures declare that Christ is “the Only Begotten of God”. He is begotten, and
    not created. As to when He was begotten, it is not for us to make
    investigations into this, and our minds could not comprehend it if this
    was explained to us. The prophet Micah tells us all we can
    know on this subject, by these words: “And you, Bethlehem Ephrata, little one among the
    thousands of Judah, from you will come forth for me the one who will rule over Israel, and whose
    the origin goes back to ancient times, to the days of eternity “(Mic. 5: 1, 2).
    had a time when Christ appeared from God out of the bosom of the Father (Jn 8:42;
    1:18), but that time was so far in the past, in the days of eternity,
    that to limited understanding, this epoch is virtually without
    beginning.
    But the important thing is that Christ is the only Son of God and not a created subject. He
    possesses by inheritance a name more excellent than that of the angels; There is a son in
    His own house (Heb. 1: 4; 3: 6). And since He is the only begotten Son of God, He is of
    the same substance and nature as God, and possesses by birth all the attributes
    of God ; because the Father would like His Son to be the exact image of His Person,
    the shine of His glory, and be filled with all the fulness of the Godhead. So He has the
    “life in itself”; He possesses immortality by virtue of His own right, and can
    grant it to others. Life is natural in Him, therefore it cannot be Him
    removed; but having willingly given His life, He can take it back. He says “here is
    why the Father loves Me: it is because I give my life, in order to be able to
    to resume. No one takes it away from me, but I give it of myself; I have the power
    to give it, and I have the power to take it back: I have received this order from my Father “(Jn
    10:17, 18).
    If anyone objects the old objection, namely: How could Christ be
    immortal and yet die? we just have to say that we don’t
    do not know. We do not claim to understand everything about Infinity. We don’t
    can’t understand how Christ could be God in the beginning,
    sharing the same glory with the Father before the world was, and yet
    being born as a baby in Bethlehem. The mystery of the crucifixion and the
    resurrection is only the mystery of the incarnation. We can not
    understand how Christ could be God and become man for our
    good. We can’t understand how He could make the world out of nothing,
    nor how He could raise the dead, nor yet how He can act by His
    Spirit in our own hearts; however, we believe and know these
    things. It should be enough for us to accept as truth what God has revealed, without tripping over things the intelligence cannot comprehend.
    Also, we rejoice in the infinite power and glory that the scriptures
    declare that they belong to Christ, without tormenting our limited mind in a vain
    attempt to explain infinity.
    Finally, we know the divine oneness of the Father and the Son because all
    two have the same spirit. Paul, after saying that those in the flesh do not
    may please God, continues: “for you, you do not live according to the flesh, but
    according to the Spirit, if it is true that the Spirit of God dwells in you; but if someone
    has not the Spirit of Christ, He is not his “(Ro. 8: 9). Here we find that the
    Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. Christ “is in the bosom of
    Father “; being by nature of the same substance as God, and having life in him-
    even, He is rightly called Jehovah, the only one existing by Himself, and in
    Jeremiah 23: 5, 6, it is said of Him, that a righteous Sprout will execute judgment and
    righteousness on earth, shall be known as Jehovah-tsidekenu “the Lord our
    justice”.
    Let no one, therefore, who claims to honor Christ, grant Him less
    honor that he does not bestow on the Father, for that would dishonor the Father. That all,
    with the angels of heaven, worship the Son, without fear of worshiping and serving the creature
    instead of the Creator.

    #873185
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So then God created the earth to be inhabited by men, but gave it an “atmosphere” that we couldn’t even see through, let alone breathe?

    When you first build a house, you cannot live in it right away.

    It takes time to make it habitable.

    #873186
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Perhaps there is a thread called “The Bible” or something.  I simply don’t have the time to be invested in a dozen different threads on a bunch of different subjects… especially when they all relate to the truth of scripture in one way or another.  This is, after all, a Bible discussion forum.

    You could put yourself on the Hot Seat and we can all have a go at you.

    #873190
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Of course we know the word “begotten” in this case isn’t literal because we know that God the Father didn’t have sex with God the Mother to produce Jesus.

    LU:  Of course there is asexual reproduction which wouldn’t require a partner. I believe it is entirely possible for the eternal One to asexually reproduce and “literally” beget a son of His own kind.

    But in the case of asexual reproduction the word “begotten” wouldn’t be literal either.  Nor would the words “father” or “son”.  The original entity wouldn’t have brought forth an offspring (the meaning of “beget”).  Instead, the split would have resulted in two 100% identical entities, equal in every single way.  So you haven’t gained a literal meaning of “begotten”, but have instead lost the literal meanings of “father” and “son”.

    Of course we could imagine the same thing concerning God’s other spirit sons too, right?  Perhaps the meaning of God creating the angels through Jesus means that the Jesus clone of God asexually produced them – which makes them 100% identical to Jesus in every way, and therefore 100% identical to God in every way too, right?

    Kathi, do you believe that Jesus is 100% identical in every single way to the one he calls his God?

    Is it possible that the angels were produced the same way?  Why or why not?

    #873191
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: AMEN LU,

    For GOD NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE !!!

    Don’t you mean “For our two 100% identical Gods nothing is impossible!” ?

    2 Timothy 4:3-4… For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    #873192
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  That land is out of view because it is over the curve.

    Could there be any other explanation for the land not showing up in your photo?  Or is “because it is over the curve” the only possible explanation there is?

     

     

     

    #873193
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  You said everyone of those Gods were a person, “O” really ,  many scriptures tell of God that have eyes and can’t , see legs and can’t walk, Gods made of trees that are decorated with Gold and silver or images and fastened with a banner so they can’t fall over…

    Gene, I was talking about the gods that I mentioned in my post… the ones Jehovah explicitly identified as gods.  I was not talking about inanimate objects that men create for themselves and then pretend they are gods who can save them.  In fact, Isaiah 44:9-20 is one of my all time favorite passages in scripture.  God cracks me up in that one…  “Half of the tree he burns on the fire to warm his dinner, and the other half he carves into an image and bows down to it and says, ‘You are my god! Save me!'”  😂🤣😅

    But here’s another passage to help you see the point I’m making…

    2 Kings 1:2, 6…  Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, “Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury.” 

    “A man came to meet us,” they replied. “And he said to us, ‘Go back to the king who sent you and tell him, “This is what the LORD says: Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are sending messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?’’

    Here again we have Jehovah Himself calling someone else a god – and using the plural “elohim” to do it.  Notice that Jehovah doesn’t say Baal-Zebub is a “false god”, or that he couldn’t provide the information that Ahaziah was seeking.  Instead, Jehovah was angry because Ahaziah was seeking the information from a DIFFERENT god – instead of his own God.

    Later on we find out that Baal-Zebub is actually Satan, the ruler of the demons (Matt 12:24-26), and that he is “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4).

    So Gene, is Satan a real god or not?  Jehovah calls him a god.  Paul calls him a god.  What do you say about it?

     

    #873194
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  The opinion in question is based on a misinterpretation of the text alone
    of Revelation 3:14: “Write also to the angel of the church in Laodicea: This is what says
    the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God “.
    This is misinterpreted as meaning that Christ is the first being
    that God created; that God’s work of creation began with Him. But this
    opinion is contrary to the texts of Scripture which state that Christ himself
    created all things.

    The entirety of what you posted is flawed beyond belief, Berean.  For example, there is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus created anything.  None.  On the other hand, there is Prov 8:22 (God created me as the first of His works), Col 1:15 (the firstborn of every creature), Micah 5:2 (his origin is from ancient times), and Ps 2:7 (today I have brought you forth into existence) that all SUPPORT the meaning of “beginning of the creation by God” in Rev 3:14.

    So while the person you quoted says “beginning” is “CONTRARY” to scripture, the truth is that at least 4 scriptures explicitly support it – and that’s not even counting the hundreds of scriptures that say Jesus is the SON of God.

    So what you have here is a bait and switch fallacy…

    1.  Scripture says Jesus created all things.

    2.  Therefore Jesus can’t be the beginning of God’s creation.

    Since #1 is blatantly false, the argument made by using #1 to support #2 is moot.

    Berean:  Neither should we imagine that Christ is a creature, because Paul
    calls him: “the firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15), because the following verses
    saying that He is the creator, and not a creature. “For it is through Him that were
    created all things in the heavens and in the earth…

    This is the same tactic…

    1.  Jesus created all things.

    2.  Therefore Jesus can’t be the firstborn of every creature.

    Again, since #1 is blatantly false (your source even uses the proper “through him all things were created”), the argument made by using #1 to support #2 is moot.

    Berean:  …whose origin goes back to ancient times… but that time was so far in the past… that to limited understanding, this epoch is virtually without beginning.

    No word in Micah 5:2 means “from eternity”.  So when we exclude the parts from your source that aren’t supported by scripture, the above is what he actually says… “Jesus’ origin was so long ago that we could almost understand him as being virtually (but not actually) without beginning”.  Translation:  Jesus was created a very long time ago.

    But this one really takes the cake…

    Berean:  Christ is the Archangel. See Jude 9; 1 Theses. 4:16; Jn 5:28, 29; Dan. 10:21 am. It does not mean that he is the first angel, for He is not an angel, but He is above them. This means
    that He is the chief or prince of the angels, just as an archbishop is the
    head of bishops.

    Um… an archbishop IS most certainly a bishop…

    Screenshot (1)

    So the idea that Jesus is an archangel but not himself an angel is absurd.  Here’s a scriptural example…

    Luke 12:11-12… When you are brought before synagogues, rulers, and authorities, do not worry about how to defend yourselves or what to say. For at that time the Holy Spirit will teach you what you should say.

    The red word is the Greek word “arche”.  So your source is basically claiming that since the rulers mentioned above are ruling over humans, then can’t also be human.  Hopefully you can see how his claim is undeniably false now.

    Anyway, these are just a few things that jumped out at me, Berean.  The entire writing is filled with unscriptural and erroneous claims.

     

     

    #873195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: So then God created the earth to be inhabited by men, but gave it an “atmosphere” that we couldn’t even see through, let alone breathe?

    Proclaimer: When you first build a house, you cannot live in it right away.  It takes time to make it habitable.

    So then God is like a man, requiring a bunch of time to build something?  Let’s just cut to the chase…

    God told Moses that He created the sun, the moon, and all of the stars on day 4.  So your idea that these “stars” already existed but we just couldn’t see them right away is contrary to scripture.

    Who is right?  You or God?

    #873196
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel: GODMAN:

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that

    we may know THE TRUE GOD,

    and may be in his TRUE SON.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Mike, I produced the above scripture,

    The above scripture is as clear as crystal! READ:

    THE SON CAME,

    THE SON GAVE US UNDERSTANDING,

    THAT WE MAY KNOW THE TRUE GOD????

    Up to that moment in time, no one knew THE TRUE GOD!

    NOW ON THIS PLANET, SOMETHING TO BE ACCEPTED AS TRUE, 

    MUST BE BOTH VISIBLE AND PHYSICAL!

    Mike, the above  CREDENTIALS, belong only to THE SON! Thus ON THIS PLANET,

    this true God MAY BE IN THE TRUE SON.

    JESUS CHRIST

    There’s is no way out for God the Father INVISIBLE AND UNLOWN to be KNOWN and ACCEPTED as the

    TRUE GOD EXCEPT IN HIS SON

    JESUS CHRIST!

    FOR GOD’S SAKE;  THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND LIFE ETERNAL!

    THE TRUE SON JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

    THE TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE!

    Now, is there a scripture, precisely THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, which clearly says

    GOD THE FATHER IS TRUE and ETERNAL LIFE! NO! Despite the fact that

    HE IS, THANKS ONLY TO JESUS THE MAN WHO REVEALED HIM IN HIMSELF IN

    John17:3 Now this is eternal life: ( JESUS CHRIST)  That they may know thee,

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    SENT VISIBLE AND PHYSICAL, 1 John1:1, AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT,

    BUT SINCE ALL POSSIBLE FOR GOD,

    GOD IN THE SON MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO BE BOTH VISIBLE AND PHYSICAL, 

    BOTH TRUE AND ETERNAL LIFE!

    BOTH GOD AND MAN! 

    JESUS CHRIST

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him:

     I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    Mike, JESUS IS THE TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE!

    1 John 1:2 For the life was manifested,  and we have seen and do bear witness,

    and declare unto you THE LIFE ETERNAL,(JESUS CHRIST)

    which was with the Father, and hath APPEARED to us:

    JESUS CHRIST

    Mike, JESUS IS THE TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE!

    Now, you produced the scripture hereunder:

    1 John 5:20…  And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may

    know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true,

    through His Son Jesus Christ. 

    This is the true (MANIFESTED) God and eternal life.

    The above scripture is partly perplexing!!!

    I AM WAITING FOR YOU TO ANALYZE IT YOURSELF!

    GO AHEAD SHOW ME YOUR TRUTH!

    IN THE MEANTIME JUST REFLECT ON THIS PART:

    and we are in Him who is true,

    1Colossians 16:

    FOR IN HIM were all things created in heaven and on earth, …: all things were created by him and

    IN HIM. 17And he is before all, and by him, all things consist.  19Because

    IN HIM, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 

    Now I have given enough scripture which clearly declares that

    JESUS IS THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE ETERNAL!

    I WONDER WHO IS HIDDEN IN THE PERSONAL PRONOUN “HIM” IN I John5:20 ABOVE

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ 

    #873197
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  You could put yourself on the Hot Seat and we can all have a go at you.

    You should put yourself on the Hot Seat for refusing to answer simple questions that I keep asking you.

    1.  David says the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth from one end of the heaven to the other.  You say that is not the case.  Who is “lying” (since in your mind there is only “true or lie”)?  You or David?

    2.  God says He created the sun, moon, and stars on day 4.  You say that’s not the case.  Who is lying?  You or God?

    3.  Joshua says “the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and the moon stood motionless”.  You say that’s not the case.  Who is lying?  You or Joshua?

    4.  Scripture says that God rules from His throne which is surrounded by the throne of Jesus and the thrones of 24 elders and is above us – as in over our heads up in the sky.  You say there is no such thing as “up” in the real world, and therefore this can’t be the case.  Who is lying?  You or Scripture?

    #873198
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike, I produced the above scripture,

    The above scripture is as clear as crystal! READ:

    THE SON CAME,

    THE SON GAVE US UNDERSTANDING,

    THAT WE MAY KNOW THE TRUE GOD????

    Up to that moment in time, no one knew THE TRUE GOD!

    Yes, God’s Son came and gave us a better understanding of his and our God…

    John 1:18…  No one has ever seen God, but the only-begotten god, who is in close relationship with the Father, has made Him known to us.

    Understand?  The “true God” that Jesus came to make known to us was his own God, YHWH.  He is our God and Jesus’ God.  You and Jesus have the same God, Carmel.

    1.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    2.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    3.  Is it scriptural that God could perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us?  Yes or No?

    Carmel, I understand that answering these questions would destroy your doctrine.  But just so you know, since the rest of us realize that this is exactly why you refuse to answer them, your doctrine has already been destroyed.  Your silence has spoken volumes.

    #873199
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Kathi, do you believe that Jesus is 100% identical in every single way to the one he calls his God?

    Is it possible that the angels were produced the same way?  Why or why not?

    I believe the Father and Son are identical in every way possible except one was begotten as the only begotten (the Son), and the other (the Father) was the begetter. The Father was never begotten.

    The angels were not asexually reproduced from the Father. It was through the Son that angels were created, not begotten.

    #873200
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Astonishing the energy you deploy to resist against the truth …..

    #873201
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus is no longer a man, since flesh cannot see, enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven. 

    ME: NO Mike you are not precise, NOT FLESH, but

    FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    Mike, JESUS IS NO LONGER A MAN, BUT

    GODMAN!

    JESUS OWNS NOT THE ORDINARY MORTAL FLESH BUT

    THE SPIRITUAL GLORIFIED FLESH!

    WHICH MEANS THAT WHEN HE MANIFESTED HIMSELF TO HIS DISCIPLES AFTER HE ENTERED THE CLOSED ROOM, THOUGH HE WAS IN FLESH AND BONES HE WAS ALSO SPIRIT SIMPLY IN

    A GLORIFIED SPIRIT/FLESH BODY!

    THAT’S WHY

    JESUS IS GODMAN! 

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, THE FACT THAT HE IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MOST HIGH. NO LONGER  SERVANT Mr. Mike.

    BUT THE SOLE SOVEREIGN  OVER THE COSMOS AS

    THE GOD OF ALL FLESH! SUPERIOR TO 

    GOD THE FATHER WHO IS ONLY SPIRIT WELL CLEAR IN

    John17:10 And all my things (HUMAN) are thine, and thine (SPIRITUAL) are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    YOU: So even if you insisted that the red “This” referred to Jesus,

    ME: AND HOW!!!

    YOU: it would say Jesus is “god” – but not “man”.  Therefore, not “GODMAN” as you erroneously claim all the time.

    POOR Mike, YOU ARE SO BLIND WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    THAT MEANS THAT GOD THE FATHER HAS FAILED IN HIS TASK OF BECOMING MAN IN

    JESUS CHRIST! something that Jesus Himself confirmed that HE WAS ALREADY 

    GODMAN IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER,

    THE ONLY EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    John17:5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

     

    ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED IN THE UNIQUE GLORIFIED BODY BOTH

    SPIRIT, GODLY, AND FLESH HUMAN. Yes Mike

    GODMAN, 

    1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body.

    If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 

    45The first man Adam was made into a living soul;

    the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

    They are both Adam, despite the name Adam means of the red earth!WHY?

    SIMPLY AS JESUS UNIFIED BOTH THE EARTHLY AND THE HEAVENLY, THEY ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH, 

    Read and accept the TRUTH

    John1:51And he saith to him: Amen, amen I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    Genesis 28:12 And he saw in his sleep a ladder standing upon the earth, and the top thereof touching heaven: the angels also of God ascending and descending by it; 

    The angels of God are coming on this planet and return back to heaven as

    CHILDREN OF GOD 

    Now to

    Luke 24:36 Now whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them, and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not. 37But they being troubled and frightened, supposed

    that they saw a spirit.

    DESPITE IN FLESH!!!

    38And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (ORDINARY) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    40And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #873203
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: 1.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    2.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    3.  Is it scriptural that God could perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us?  Yes or No?

    Carmel, I understand that answering these questions would destroy your doctrine.  But just so you know, since the rest of us realize that this is exactly why you refuse to answer them, your doctrine has already been destroyed.  Your silence has spoken volumes.

    ME: you are wrong Mike, I am just waiting for the right time to do that!

    Mike, since your PERCEPTION AND MENTALITY regarding God and Jesus Christ is DIFFERENT TO mine they are simply

    ALL NO Mr. Mike!

    I am in the position to discern THE TRUE GOD, but I’m afraid YOU ARE NOT,

    AS YOU  SIMPLY BELIEVE IN A MYSTERIOUS, HIDDEN, AND UNKNOWN GOD!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.

    Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    7If you had known me, you would without a doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and

    you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Show us the Father? 

    1John3:1 Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called, and should be the sons of God.

    Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him.

    2Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is.

    GODMAN JESUS CHRIST.

     

    peace nd love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #873205
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    How about it Mike.

    To continue the conversation here not related to John 1:1 on the Hot Seat. Shall I set that up?

    #873206
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…….Those objects were their true God to them,  Because the word God is not a person, place or thing,  it is a Word that Describes you relation with anything that exists. If it meets the definition of a GOD TO YOU IT “IS” your God no matter what or who it is,  that is to you, may not be to anyone else though.

    But to us true believers like Jesus and myself, and those that are true , we “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD that is a True God to us, and there is no other GOD TO US.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #873258
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8 @genebalthrop @Lightenup @berean

    @gadam123
    @edj @mikeboll64

    Hey guys! and everyone else I didn’t mention,

    Irenaeus wrote around AD 185 and mentions John 1:1 five times.[20]
    In one reference he comments, “‘and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.”[21]
    Irenaeus understood Jesus as more than “a god” or a divine being of a sort.
    He referred to Jesus as God.
    Let me repeat what Irenaeus said:
    “‘and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.”[21]
    That’s my conclusion, too!

    [20] Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 8; Book 3, Chapter 11 (3 times); Book 5, Chapter 18.
    [21] Ibid., Book 1, Chapter 8.

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