John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,101 through 23,120 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #873066
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi  Lu,

    YOU: God is eternal, was God always a father?

    If so, then God always had a son.

    ME: WITHIN THE DEITY, THERE IS ALWAYS

    THE CONCEPT AND STATE OF A FAMILY THOUGH 

    ALL SPIRITUAL.

    Matthew 19:4Who answering said to them:

    Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning,

    Made them male and female?
    And he said: 5For this cause shall a man leave father and mother,

    and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
     6Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 

    THE ABOVE IS DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE DEITY AS WELL, 

    SINCE GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS.

    LET’S REFLECT ON THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE:

    Have ye not read, that he who made man

    from the beginning,

    Made them male and female?

    NOTICE: HE WHO MADE MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    HE DIDN’T SAY WHO CREATED MAN…..;

    WHICH IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST, WHO WAS EMANATED FROM GOD AS AN EMBODIMENT OF LIGHT, IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    THE BEGINNING!

    THE FIRST-EVER CARRIER OF THE DEITY!

    THE MAN!

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER.

    ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE,

    THE SON!

    ASSERTED AND SAID AGAIN:

    MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE!!! 

    GOD MADE THESE TWO SPIRITS ATTRIBUTED TO THE SON MALE AND FEMALE FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    THUS THIS EMBODIMENT, THIS CARRIER OF GOD, THE MAN, JESUS CHRIST AS A SPIRIT  ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  HAD A SOUL THE MALE, AND A BODY, THE FEMALE.

    GOD MADE THEM SO!

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine:

    as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:….

    BOTH ANDROGYNOUS,  TWO SPIRITS, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE, ONE ACTS AS A SOUL, AND ONE ACTS AS A BODY, BOTH ATTRIBUTED TO

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    NOW  TO THE DEITY BEFORE THE BEGINNING:

    THE SPIRIT WHO INDWELLS IN THIS EMBODIMENT,  ETERNALLY EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, IS GOD THE FATHER, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE IN THE HEART OF THE SON.

    THE SOUL OF THE FATHER, THE FEMALE, IS THE HOLY GHOST, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  THE INTERMEDIATE, THE LOVE, AND THE VOICE OF GOD, AND

    THE BODY IS THE SON ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    …..And he said: 5For this cause shall a man,

    “THE WORD” made flesh, MALE AND FEMALE,

     LEAVE FATHER, THE SPIRIT,  

     and MOTHER, THE HOLY GHOST, THE SOUL OF THE FATHER,

    and shall cleave to HIS WIFE, THE BRIDE, THE CHURCH, THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL CREATION ALL IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH. THE FEMALE OF THE SON, John 3:29
    and they two, THE HOLY GHOST, THE BRIDEGROOM, THE MALE OF THE SON, THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH, and
     “THE WORD” THE BRIDE, THE FEMALE OF THE SON, THE BODY OF THE CHURCH,  THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL CREATION,

    shall be in ONE FLESH, ALL IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH.

    6Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.

    (ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!)

    What therefore God hath joined together,

     let no man put asunder. 

    LET NOT ANY KIND OF PROCESS, LGBT OF HUMAN BEINGS PUT ASUNDER!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873068
    gadam123
    Participant

    What if there is truth and it is revealed slowly in the right season. Or do we believe that 100% of the truth was dumped onto humanity in one hit. The latter doesn’t seem very smart to me, but that is your standard Adam.

    A plan usually has stages.

    And the fact that the Old Testament reveals truth in stages too doesn’t support your understanding does it?

    I think we can all agree that your narrative has to be wrong.

    Finally, you have shown zero proof that the Old Testament is the full revelation of God to man. Why didn’t the last prophet say he was the last if all truth from God was revealed. Or did he just forget to mention it?

    Hi Proclaimer, it’s deviation again from the topic. I don’t see the religion in terms of any revelation whether partial or full. I only see the religion as a developed or evolved entity. I was stating that each religion is having its basis on its own beliefs and scriptures. So the Hebrew religion need not depend on Christianity which was later developed or evolved. I think we can end this deviation here and come back to the topic John 1:1.

    #873076
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..God the Father said,  that there would co4me a time when everyone would know about him, from the least to the greatest.  That time still has not come yet,  even Jesus said there would come a time when he would reveal the truth about the Father.  So more and more truth is given over time. Paul even said we only see in part at this time,  as looking through an obscure glass, but a time would come when we all will see clearly,  so it is a process of time when things are resealed right?

    peace and love to you and yours Adam. ………..gene

     

    #873078
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…..God the Father said,  that there would co4me a time when everyone would know about him, from the least to the greatest.  That time still has not come yet,  even Jesus said there would come a time when he would reveal the truth about the Father.  So more and more truth is given over time. Paul even said we only see in part at this time,  as looking through an obscure glass, but a time would come when we all will see clearly,  so it is a process of time when things are resealed right?

    Hi brother Gene, Hebrew Bible does talk about the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9; Hab 2:14)

        But the earth will be filled
    with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
    as the waters cover the sea.

    It’s the NT and Christianity that claim the secrets revelations. I don’t think any thing to be revealed on God and Messiah as every thing was already written in the Tanakh.

    #873149
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus doesn’t have that power independent of his God either.

    ME: MIKE JESUS IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER Hebrews 1:3

    ALSO: JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE! 

    YOU: Jesus is also a creature who is dependent on his God for survival.

    Rev.3:14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,

    who is the beginning (arché) of the creation of God: 

    Strong’s Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    ME: Thus the phrase found in 3:14 means that Jesus was the

    “first cause”, the “origin”, of creation,

    not its first production. 

    YOU: Jesus is also a creature who is dependent on his God for survival.

    John 17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    ME:

    Mike, WHO DEPENDS ON WHO IN THE ABOVE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873158
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: GODMAN:

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    1 John 5:20…  And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, through His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Carmel, the red “This” refers back to the “Him who is true” – not to His Son.  Besides, this was said after Jesus was exalted and back in heaven at the right hand of his and our God, YHWH.  Jesus is no longer a man, since flesh cannot see, enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.  So even if you insisted that the red “This” referred to Jesus, it would say Jesus is “god” – but not “man”.  Therefore, not “GODMAN” as you erroneously claim all the time.

    Jesus is indeed a god… a mighty god as a matter of fact.  Only his own God is mightier… which prompts me to add another question to the ones you keep ignoring…

    1.  According to Jesus himself, is our God also Jesus’ God?  Yes or No?

    2.  Did God perform signs and wonders through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    3.  Did God perform signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    4.  Can God perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us?  Yes or No?

    #873160
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  The number one problem here is that you and others do not understand WHAT THE WORD GOD MEANS.  “THE WORD GOD IS NEVER A REAL PERSON, It “only” means THE ,  “RELATIONSHIP” YOU HAVE,   with something,  “ANYTHING” can be Your GOD. 

    That is 100% wrong, Gene.  There are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth.  Every one of those gods and every one of those lords is a PERSON – not a “relationship”.

    #873161
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: When Jesus said , ‘it says you are God’s , that was meant in a possessive sense ,  not a real God being sense.

    When Jesus says God called them gods, he was referring to Psalm 82.  In that psalm, we see the account of a time when a bunch of gods were gathered before the Most High God in heaven, and the Most High God passed judgment upon many of them for not doing what He told them to do.  The judgment was that although they were gods, they would die like men.

    #873165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  I just wish Mike would give up on science. I do not think that is his calling.

    1 Timothy 6:20-21… O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions from science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

    I do my own science, and have found absolutely nothing that contradicts the world God described through Moses and other Bible writers.

    How about you?  Have you personally verified anything regarding the scientific claims of godless men that contradict scripture?  Of course not.  These godless men show you CGI of a circle that they say is an actual photograph of the “planet Pluto” – and you blindly believe even as they laugh at you by putting the Disney character Pluto right in the image!

    Pluto on Pluto

    Pluto

    And what’s worse, you can’t even answer simple Biblical questions about these contradictions.  If you were honest, you’d at least come out and proclaim loudly and very clearly for all to see that you are aware that the Bible says A, but since you believe B, the Bible is clearly wrong.

    Why don’t you do that, Proclaimer?  The Bible says God sits on a throne above us (as in over our heads, up in the sky).  But that can’t possibly be true in your ball earth worldview, because “above us” is many different directions all at once, right?  So why not come right out and PROCLAIM that the Bible is wrong on this particular teaching?

    We’ll be waiting…

     

    #873166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  That’s a pity Mike. A little foolishness here goes through the whole batch.

    It is indeed a pity, Proclaimer.  That’s why I’ll never stop trying to replace the unverified foolishness you spout with scriptural truth.  My hope is that it will be the truth, not the foolishness, that goes through the whole batch.

    Joshua 10:12-14…  On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

    So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

    The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going in about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

    Proclaimer, is this scriptural account the truth?  Or a lie?  Since you only allow for the two options (true or lie), pick one of them now for all of us to see.  Was the author of the book of Joshua LYING?

    According to your worldview, he must have been lying, right?  What say you?

    #873167
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    And let me add the preceding verse for your consideration…

    Joshua 10:11…  As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the Lord hurled large hailstones down on them, and more of them died from the hail than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.

    How about this part, Proclaimer?  Does the godless “science falsely so-called” that you follow allow for large hailstones to just start dropping out of the sky and striking the enemies but not God’s people?  Do you accept that God can and did send these hailstones against the enemies of Israel?  Or will you say that the author of Joshua was just confused because “science” tells us that hailstones do not just randomly drop out of a clear blue sunny day and strike only one group of people and not the other group who is hot on the tails of the first group?

    #873169
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    See Proclaimer, you either accept the Bible as written, or you become one of those who just pick and choose which scriptures they will accept, and which they will reject.

    I accept the Bible as written… all of it.  You are clearly one of the latter group, but the saddest thing is the REASON that you belong to that group.  The godless men who built your imaginary universe out thin air haven’t ever provided a single shred of scientific evidence that you and I can go verify for ourselves.  They are just looking up at lights in the sky and making up stories about those lights that clearly contradict, not only the description of the world that God Himself gave to Moses, but actual science!

    For example, there cannot exist in nature a pressurized system directly adjacent to a vacuum.  It is impossible, as anyone who’s ever popped a balloon can tell you (the pressurized system inside the balloon equalizes with the lower pressure outside the balloon the very second the barrier is breached with a pin).  Yet you believe (without verifiable empirical evidence) that we exist in a pressurized system that is directly adjacent to the most powerful vacuum ever imagined by man – with no barrier separating the two.  Impossible… according to REAL science.

    So the saddest part is that you believe these godless men without any verifiable evidence, in the face of actual scientific evidence that refutes their claims, and in spite of the fact that what they’re telling you directly contradicts what God told us about the world HE created. 😔

    #873170
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……You said everyone of those Gods were a person, “O” really ,  many scriptures tell of God that have eyes and can’t , see legs and can’t walk, Gods made of trees that are decorated with Gold and silver or images and fastened with a banner so they can’t fall over.  Many of the Gods of different people are nothing but stone idols,  what do you even think IDOLATRY  IS?  IT WORSHIPING FALSE Gods.

    Jesus did not say that those people were themselves God’s,  what he meant was , that God sent his words unto God’s people, and they did not do it.  Why would Jesus say there were many other God’s and them turn around and say , ‘for this s eternal life , that they might know YOU “THE ONLY” true God, is that not saying there is “NO” OTHER “TRUE”  GOD?  That is to Jesus ,  anyway.
    If you understood that the word GOD, can apply to anything , then you col understad what Jesus was saying.  Yes there were GOD’S OF THE Amorites, the  Hittites,  , the Egyptians,  and on and on it GOES, EVEN THE SUN was a True GOD TO SOME PEOPLE,  THAT IS WHY , IT IS ALWAYS SAID LIKE THIS,  THE GOD “OF” THIS OR THAT,  YEHOVAH IS MY GOD AND Jesus’ GOD , AND THERE IS NO OTHER TRUE GOD TO US. Why?,  because we don’t bow or worship any other God people make unto themselves.  To us those Gods are false God and only exist in the minds  of those who believe in them,  because that is the only way those God’s, can even exist,  is in their minds.
    THE WORD  GOD IS A DESCRIPTOR , OF A RELATIONSHIP, WITH SOMETHING “ANYTHING THAT EXISTS”, Yes even money can be your TRUE  God.

    “But  US ( who believe the truth)  there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between men and God , it’s ,  “THE “MAN”,  JESUS CHRIST.  AS I said “simple as that.”   You choice is to believe what Jesus said or not> IMO

    Common sense should tell you that,  right?

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #873173
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: On day 1, God created the earth with the sole intent that it would be inhabited by his crowning jewel of creation: mankind. On day 4, God created the sun as one of many lights that He placed in the firmament.

    Proclaimer:  There are two options that you are not considering. Planets wander through their galaxies and then get caught up in gravitational fields. This means our planet could have been void and then was caught in the solar system and bathed in natural light and heat.

    1.  What verifiable empirical scientific evidence do you offer us that there exist such things as “galaxies”, “planets”, “solar systems” and “gravitational fields”?

    2.  Are you saying that the solar system was created first, and then at a later date the earth became a part of it and therefore a recipient of light and heat provided by the sun – which was apparently already in existence as the center of this solar system?  If so, test the spirits who are giving you this theory against the scriptures, which say God created the sun as a light 4 days AFTER He created the earth.

    Proclaimer:  Secondly, the earth had a thick atmosphere from super eruptions etc. The planet settled down and the lights appeared in the firmanent / the sky above us.

    So then God created the earth to be inhabited by men, but gave it an “atmosphere” that we couldn’t even see through, let alone breathe?  Now you’re just bringing your other belief from godless men into it – which is once again clearly contradicted by scripture.  Scripture tells us that God created the earth on day 1, the sun on day 4, and man on day 6.  Not “billions of years of super eruptions” and a “settling down so that lights could eventually be seen”… but a total of 6 24 hour days from the creation of the earth to the creation of the first man who dwelled here.

    As a side note, your phrase “the firmament / the sky above us” is flawed, since the Hebrew word translated as “firmament” refers to a very hard substance.  It is likened to crystal and also to polished bronze in the scriptures.  The firmament is NOT the sky.

    Proclaimer:  Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years.

    No… it’s “Let there BE lights in the FIRMAMENT…”  The words are “hayah” (to become/to come into being) and “raqiya” (1: extended solid surface…  1b: firmament…  1b1: considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above).

    So lose your “appear in the sky” phrase, because it is erroneous and not what the Hebrew words mean – nor what the Hebrews considered the firmament to be.  And the correct reading of these Hebrew words eliminates both of your earlier explanations about lights (“planets”) that may have existed before the earth did, but we just couldn’t see them from the earth.  These lights in the firmament were CREATED 4 days AFTER the earth was.

    Proclaimer:  Your argument that science contradicts scripture is invalid.

    Science DOESN’T contradict scripture, nor have I ever said that it does.  Real science actually supports and confirms the scriptures.  But real science has no relation to the imaginary stories by godless men that you believe in.

    Proclaimer:  Science is simply knowledge.

    Close, but science is actually the PURSUIT of knowledge.  There is no such thing as “settled science” – as any REAL scientist will tell you.  It is an ongoing quest for ever greater knowledge about our world and the creatures that live in it.  Scientific “facts” change all the time as new data is discovered.  And, most importantly, never forget that data is simply data.  It is flawed and fallen men who INTERPRET that data – and every data point has many different interpretations from many different men.

    Proclaimer:  Granted that not all science is truth, but neither does science and scripture conflict if both are true.  And in this case, there is no conflict at all.

    Like I said, real science never contradicts scripture.  That being said, scripture says the sun was created 4 days after the earth was created.  Real scientific investigation has no possible way to even debate such a thing, let alone refute it.  But the godless science falsely so-called in which you believe has claimed that there IS a conflict here between scripture and “science”, since the sun existed before the earth.  Sadly, you believe the godless science falsely so-called OVER what God Himself told us on the matter.

    Proclaimer:  It is an unnecessary distraction and only makes you look foolish.

    Adam believes in God the Father, but not that Jesus was God’s Son who was sent down from heaven to dwell on the earth.  To him, our claims about Jesus make us look foolish.  But as we know, our claims only look foolish to those whose eyes aren’t yet opened to the truth.  And we also know that if we don’t let up, there is a chance that we might help to open some closed eyes.

    You believe in God, but not in the scriptures in which God described the world He created for us.  To you, my claim that the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth from one end of the heaven to the other makes me look foolish.  But I know that my (and David’s) claim only looks foolish to those whose eyes aren’t yet opened to the truth.  And I also know that if I don’t let up, there is a chance that I might help to open some closed eyes.

    Proclaimer:  But the worse part is this.  If people believe your argument, then they will simply draw the conclusion that scripture is a myth.

    So then will you stop talking about the scriptural truth of Jesus because certain people like Adam will draw the conclusion that the NT is a myth – which might lead them into concluding that the entire Bible is a myth?

    You really need to check yourself here, Proclaimer.  You are basically warning me that if I continue to proclaim things that are directly written in the scriptures themselves, I might cause someone to consider the Bible as mythology.  But what then is my other option?  To boldly claim that God is real, but the things He Himself told us in scripture about the world He created are false?  Shall I make up lame excuses for the ignorance of God and His servants who recorded the scriptures, saying that they didn’t understand how the world really is – just so I can promote the scientifically UNPROVEN ideas of godless men instead?  Never!

    Did you know that many atheists would be willing to accept that there is A god who created all things – but turn from the Judeo-Christian faith because the idea of a god whose son is the very god he is the son of is absurdity to them?

    How then do you think these observant atheists would react when you tell them that the Bible is the truth – but sometimes God and His authors made mistakes when describing the world in which we all live?

    So it is YOU, not me, who leads people from God by trying to make excuses for why the Bible is “wrong” about the nature of our world.  And like I said, the saddest part is that you don’t do it based on any solid actual evidence – but simply on the unverifiable STORIES that men who DON’T believe in God have told you about our world.

    Proclaimer:  It’s sad that you misrepresent scripture like this.

    Please list for me one thing that I’ve said that misrepresents scripture.  THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO YOU.  YOU CAN OVERLOOK THE REST OF THIS POST, BUT I DEMAND THAT YOU LIST A SINGLE DISAGREEMENT WE HAVE ABOUT OUR WORLD IN WHICH I’M THE ONE WHO IS MISREPRESENTING SCRIPTURE.

    Proclaimer:  I hope that you do not inflict that on anyone as every soul is precious and your stubbornness here seems to be very selfish IMO. Why introduce a stumbling block?

    Please go read those very words to yourself in the mirror… many times over and over.  The Trinitarians introduced a stumbling block by promoting absurdities that directly contradict scripture.  And YOU introduce a stumbling block when you profess that the scriptures are the truth…  except for this part about the sun, and that part about the pillars, and this other part about the moon being a light in the firmament, etc.

    #873174
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Mike. There is a difference between being created and being begotten. Creation is that which comes through the Word of God. That exempts the Word of God.

    There is no difference – especially when the Hebrew word often translated as “begotten” actually just means “brought forth into existence”.

    Also consider that the act of begetting offspring is call procreating.

    And finally, consider that Col 1:15 calls Jesus the firstborn of every creature, Prov 8:22 teaches us that he was created as the first of God’s works, and Rev 3:14 tells us that he is the beginning of the creation by God.

    So yes, Jesus was the first thing God ever CREATED.  Then God created other spirit sons through Jesus.  Then God created our physical earth and the flesh creatures who dwell on it.

    Jesus is called God’s only-begotten son in a poetic sense because as the first creation of God, Jesus is special and set aside from all the rest.  Of course we know the word “begotten” in this case isn’t literal because we know that God the Father didn’t have sex with God the Mother to produce Jesus.

    But no, there is no significant difference.  Begotten is just a way to distinguish Jesus as greater than all the spirit sons of God who came later.

     

    #873175
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Is that relevant to John 1:1?

    Perhaps there is a thread called “The Bible” or something.  I simply don’t have the time to be invested in a dozen different threads on a bunch of different subjects… especially when they all relate to the truth of scripture in one way or another.  This is, after all, a Bible discussion forum.

    Let me know if there is such a thread on HN, and if people don’t like me deviating from John 1:1, I will leave this thread and go to that one, where I can freely discuss ANYTHING relating to God, Jesus, Jews, the Bible, etc.

    Thanks.

    #873177
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  who is the beginning (arché) of the creation of God: 
    STRONG’S CONCORDANCE
    arché: beginning, origin
    ME: THUS THE PHRASE FOUND IN 3:14 MEANS THAT JESUS WAS THE
    “FIRST CAUSE”, THE “ORIGIN”, OF CREATION,
    not its first production. 

    1. The Greek word has as it’s first definition, “beginning”, as you’ve pointed out.  In the NT, it has the meaning “beginning” 75% of the time.  In all of John’s writings, it has the meaning “beginning”, including this other instance in Rev…

    Revelation 22:13… I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

    2.  The meaning “beginning” is supported by Col 1:15 (the firstborn of every creature), Prov 8:22 (God created me as the first of His works), and Micah 5:2 (his origin is from ancient times).  It is also attested by every time he is called the Son of God, since we all know that sons come after fathers, and are created by fathers.

    3.  If Rev 3:14 says Jesus is the “first cause” of God’s creation, it means that God isn’t the first cause of His own creation… which is absurd.  It becomes even more absurd to think that Jesus would call himself “the creator of the creation by God”.  Think about it… “I am the creator of God’s creation!”  Laughable.

    Of course you’ll say that’s because Jesus IS God.  But if Jesus was “God”, then why would Revelation begin like this…

    Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Why would “God” give a revelation about coming events to “God”?  Wouldn’t “God” already know about these things?

    Carmel, your doctrine requires people to suspend their God-given common sense and believe absurd things… such as Jesus’ God being a servant of Jesus.  Absolute nonsense.

    #873179
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: Of course we know the word “begotten” in this case isn’t literal because we know that God the Father didn’t have sex with God the Mother to produce Jesus.

    Of course there is asexual reproduction which wouldn’t require a partner. I believe it is entirely possible for the eternal One to asexually reproduce and “literally” beget a son of His own kind. That would truly be a literal son of God in the highest sense, born not created, of the same eternal essence as the Father.

    #873181
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I agree LU.

    The Word was begotten and with God and came from his nature so was divine.

    Then the Word became flesh…

    #873182
    Berean
    Participant

    AMEN LU,

    For GOD NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE !!!

     

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