John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #872914
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Your statement that was incorrect and not the trinity doctrine was this:

    Thus the substance is the one true God (He) and three persons (they) qualify as being in the club.

    Consubstantial means of one and the same substance, essence, or nature, especially the three divine persons of the Christian Trinity.

    If your statement was correct then substance = the one true God. However consubstantial, which is the term used by the trinitarians, means three members “of” the same eternally divine substance, essence, or nature = the one Godhead.

    #872918
    gadam123
    Participant

    For Sis Kathi….

     Understanding Hebrews 1:10-12 (Matthew Janzen, Revised 2015)

    One Scripture often used to prove Yeshua’s hand in creation is Hebrews 1:10-12. Most theologians assume the writer of Hebrews is including verses 10-12 as additional statements that Yahweh makes to or about His Son. The use of “and” in verse 10 and “but” in verse 13 seem to suggest this (in their estimation). If we look deeper, we will find several things to consider. Verses 10-12 are direct quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, however, they are not quoted from the Hebrew Text, but from the Septuagint (LXX).

    The Hebrew Text does not have “Lord” in it. Therefore, to say that “Lord” in Hebrews 1:10 proves that Yeshua is Yahweh is unscriptural. The LXX has Kurie in Psalm 102:25, but that is also not found in the Hebrew Text. The LXX also omits “O my God” in verse 24.

    In reading Psalm 102 (from the Hebrew), it is clear the subject is Yahweh. The words are spoken by an afflicted man as he cries out to Yahweh. They are not the words of Yahweh as He speaks to His Son. Notice each of the other Old Testament quotes in Hebrews 1.

    Psalm 2:7 – “…Thou art my Son; this day I (Yahweh) have begotten thee.”

    2 Samuel 7:14 – “I (Yahweh) will be to him a Father…”

    Deuteronomy 32:43 (LXX) – “And let all the angels of God (Yahweh) worship him.”

    Psalm 45:6,7 – “Thy throne O God…therefore God, thy God (Yahweh) hath anointed thee.”

    Psalm 110:1 – “Sit on my right hand, until I (Yahweh) make thine enemies thy footstool.”

    In each of these quotes it can be seen that either Yahweh is talking to His Son or about His Son. Yet, in Psalm 102:25-27, it is the Psalmist talking to Yahweh. Therefore, to include Hebrews 1:10-12 among those things that Yahweh said to or about His Son is incorrect.

    The writer of Hebrews had written verses 1-9 to show how Yahweh exalted His Son, even above the angels. The writer was then moved to exalt Yahweh as well by including verses 10-12 as a parenthesis. He afterwards resumes by showing Yeshua’s exaltation in verse 13 which is a continuation of verse 9. This is shown by three major points.

    First, in Hebrews 1:8 Yeshua is referred to as God, but is said to also have God over and above him in verse 9. The God of verse 9 is mentioned directly before verses 10-12, implying that verses 10-12 are speaking of this particular God. The only God above Yeshua would be Yahweh God Almighty. This means that the verses directly before Hebrews 1:10-12 show that Yeshua is not Yahweh God, but only holds the title God under Yahweh. It is a rare known Biblical fact, but the words Elohim (Hebrew) and Theos (Greek) are words that have uses outside of reference to Almighty Yahweh. They can be used in secondary senses to denote strength and might, or describe beings that hold high authority under the full authority of Yahweh the Father. I have written and taught on this more extensively elsewhere.

    Secondly, a few verses in the next chapter show us that creation was the work of Yahweh’s hands, and not Yeshua’s. Hebrews 1:10 shows us that the heavens are the works of the Master’s hands. Who is the Master here? Hebrews 2:5-9 makes it clear that the Master is Yahweh the Father.

    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.But we see Yeshua, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Notice that it is Yahweh who crowned Yeshua, and set Yeshua over the works of His hands. These works are none other than those spoken of in Hebrews 1:10. Thus Yahweh in Hebrews 2:7 was before spoken of in Hebrews 1:10. The heavens are not the works of Yeshua’s hands. Yeshua was rather set over the works of Yahweh’s hands.

    Thirdly, the context of Psalm 102:24-27 aligns perfectly with the context of Hebrews 1:1-12. In Psalm 102:24, the Psalmist asks Yahweh not to take him away in the midst of his days/living. The Psalmist immediately then pronounces the supremacy of Yahweh by mentioning the creation that finds its existence because of the all-powerful Creator, Yahweh (vss. 25-26). The Psalmist gives mention of how the heavens and earth will grow old like a piece of clothing, but Yahweh will remain the same, and His years will have no end. Therefore the Psalm continues in verse 28 by saying, “The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.” Yahweh’s supremacy, creatorship, and sovereignty cause the children of those who serve him to continue and be established in His presence.  ikewise in Hebrews 1, where the author is uplifting the Son, he pronounces upon Him a name better than  he angels, and the very title Theos (God). The author then proceeds to explain exactly why the Son will be  stablished in such high honor. It is because Yahweh the Creator (Hebrews 1:10-12) is supreme and sovereign, and able to uphold this position He has given to the Son. Both passages (Psalms and Hebrews) teach that Yahweh will establish His children and servants, because He is able, seeing He is the one that causes existence (creation) itself.

    It’s purely Christian interpretation. I thought it may be useful to you.

    #872921
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……… If you believe God the Father called Jesus a God,  then God the Father would  be contradicting   his very own words,  “you shall have no other God beside me , 

    Isa 44:6…“Thus says the LORD the king of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD OF HOSTS ; I am the first , and the last,  and BESIDES ME, THERE IS “NO” GOD. 

    Isa 44:8…..Fear you not , neither be afraid: have not I told from that time, and declared it: you are my witnesses , IS THER A GOD BESIDES ME?  yea, there is “NO” GOD;  “I KNOW NOT ANY”.

    So it seems The LORD our GOD can’t find any other “true God but himself”  , but some here think they know better then God does,  and deliberately deny his very own words.  We will see where that winded up in the end.

    peace and love to you all……….gene

    #872922
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    So it seems The LORD our GOD can’t find any other “true God but himself”  , but some here think they know better then God does,  and deliberately deny his very own words.  We will see where that winded up in the end. 

    Like you for example who preaches an outlaw savior.

    #872923
    Berean
    Participant

    #872926
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks again for your reply to my post. I am not alone in stating that the NT is diversity than unity on the nature of Jesus.

    It really is not hard to understand. I guess that God makes people blind to this by handing them over to the spirit of confusion.

    The Word that was with God was divine and became flesh and is now back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    The revelation of Jesus Christ is a mystery for sure. Scripture says this.

    On account of this I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles —if indeed you have heard about the stewardship of God’s grace given to me for you. According to[a] revelation the mystery was made known to me, just as I wrote beforehand in brief, 4 so that you may be able when you read to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ (which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit): that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow sharers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I became a servant, according to the gift of God’s grace given to me, according to the working of his power.

    &

    the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.…

    The problem you believe that I have gadam is that I believe in the continuation of prophets and revelation of God’s plan whereas you hold that the Old Testament is the full revelation and anything else is wrong.

    I would like to ask why you believe this though. There is nothing in the Old Testament that enforces such an idea. As you are aware, it is the 5 books of Moses and then the prophets. So why is Malachi the last? Seems weird to think that it all ends there.

    Prophets did arise after these times. One that comes to mind is John the Baptist. You obviously believe he is a false prophet or perhaps didn’t exist.

    #872934
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Berean, lovely song.

    Blessings, LU

    #872937
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Proclaimer is right, about the sacrificial lamb, being  the sign of the redemption given us in the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God,  Jesus Christ.  He is absolutely  right about that. It was God the Father who offered up Jesus as the payment for our sins.  That is clear in both the new and the Old Testaments, of how sin were dealt with.

    About the “my lord and my God ” things also Timothy was addressing two different persons when he made that statement , he is right about that also.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

     

    #872939
    gadam123
    Participant

    gadam, when you know the truth there is no contradiction because there is no contradiction in truth.

    Doctrines in scripture are clear and in unity. So-called contradictions are easily cleared up. They are simply misunderstandings that can be cleared up easily enough.

    I challenge people when they say there is contradiction. Trouble is there are a lot of brainwashed people out there who teach and follow traditions that were passed down.

    Hi Proclaimer, I asked you earlier what’s the truth here?

    First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    #872940
    gadam123
    Participant

    The problem you believe that I have gadam is that I believe in the continuation of prophets and revelation of God’s plan whereas you hold that the Old Testament is the full revelation and anything else is wrong.

    Sorry I never claimed the above highlighted statement. It’s the NT and the Christianity claims that the Old (Testament) is incomplete without the New. I am only investigating the so called greater claims of the NT and Christianity by comparing them with their original source the Hebrew scriptures.

    I hope I am clear.

    #872941
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Proclaimer is right, about the sacrificial lamb, being  the sign of the redemption given us in the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God,  Jesus Christ.  He is absolutely  right about that. It was God the Father who offered up Jesus as the payment for our sins.  That is clear in both the new and the Old Testaments, of how sin were dealt with.

    About the “my lord and my God ” things also Timothy was addressing two different persons when he made that statement , he is right about that also.

    Hi brother Gene, sorry I am not for Jesus to be a sacrificial Lamb as God never accepted Human sacrifice on the alter for redemption of sins. In fact it was an abomination to Yahweh.

    Coming to the statement of doubting Thomas let the Christian brothers and sisters comment on this.

    #872942
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Do you understand the concept of Sacrifice,  what it represented even in the Old Testament , can you give a reason for it to ever be commanded by God himself? please think about this and answer this inquire, It may help a lot here.

    peace and love to you and your Adam………….gene

    #872944
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Do you understand the concept of Sacrifice,  what it represented even in the Old Testament , can you give a reason for it to ever be commanded by God himself? please think about this and answer this inquire, It may help a lot here.

    Please check my post on “Jewish Messiah”

    #872945
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless in The precious name of Jésus …Amen !

    #872946
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If we reject sacrifice, mercy, and grace, then we might as well throw away the Old Testament. These by the way are the theme of the New Testament. God desires mercy over sacrifice, but sometimes you need to sacrifice something to gain mercy. This is true even in our lives. Elite athletes for example sacrifice their social life to attain trophies. How much more then would God want sacrifice if it means the salvation of our souls.

    The soul who sins is the one who will die. 

    now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.…

    #872947
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, I asked you earlier what’s the truth here?

    First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    If you say that Jesus is God, then you have serious contradictions in the scripture. If you say he is and only ever was a created man, then you have serious contradictions to deal with.

    But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions.

    In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
        did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
        by taking the very nature of a servant,
        being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
        he humbled himself
        by becoming obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
        and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
        to the glory of God the Father.

    I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

    But centuries of tradition has blinded many from the truth that the New Testament clearly reveals to us.

    Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    By and large, men are still the same stubborn creatures they were back in Jesus day.

    #872949
    gadam123
    Participant

    But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions.

    This is the biggest mythology of the NT stating that the supposed Messiah was preexisting his birth and was sacrificed as a Lamb for the sins of the world. Such concepts on Messiah are no where found in the Hebrew Bible. You can find plenty of such mythologies in our Eastern religions like Hinduism.

    #872951
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    YOU: This is the biggest mythology of the NT stating that the supposed Messiah was preexisting his birth and was sacrificed as a Lamb for the sins of the world. Such concepts on Messiah are nowhere found in the Hebrew Bible.

    ME: I’m afraid NOWHERE SEEN IS MORE PROPER!

    Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel the saviour.

    16They are all confounded and ashamed:

     

    the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

     

    What are your comments regarding the above scripture!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872956
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    ADAM……I also believe that the biggest myth of all,  is thinking Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth. Jesus never address himself as having a actual personal pass relationship with God,  he  always used present tense language,  except where he was referencing prophetic subjects MATTER. I have ask here before for anyone to show me ANY DIALOGUE or ACTIVITY of him in the Old Testament WITH God. No one has ever shown me any.  Why didn’t Jesus ever say , he was alive in heaven with God talking to him before he was ever born on this earth. Surely something as important as that , he would have told people over and over, but not a single word about it,  Surely he would have said it to them all, if that were the case.

    So in this I do strongly agree with you Adam.  I believe you problem has to deal with not so much how the true apostles or original writers , but more with the false concepts applied to those scriptures by the Fallen or Present Apostate Church’s apply them. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene

    #872958
    gadam123
    Participant

    So in this I do strongly agree with you Adam.  I believe you problem has to deal with not so much how the true apostles or original writers , but more with the false concepts applied to those scriptures by the Fallen or Present Apostate Church’s apply them. IMO

    Hi brother Gene, thanks for your agreement on the myth of preexistence of the Messiah. I request you to go beyond this even to the level of the so called writers who were not the eye witnesses of the events in the life of Jesus including Paul. You will realise the actual problem in the NT. These writers wanted to prove their Hellenistic ideas on Jesus the supposed Messiah. Please take the example of the writer of Matthew how he misquoted the Hebrew scriptures to prove Jesus’ so called Virgin Birth. What can you expect from these writers? Similarly the writer of John’s Gospel who mystified Jesus by comparing him with God’s impersonal ‘word’ as if he was preexisting with God as a separate (divine) being. This is often supported by the non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others here.

    Please understand my struggle for truth.

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