John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,981 through 23,000 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872870
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…

    Two persons.  Only one of them is THE God.  The other is THE God’s holy servant, Jesus.

    Mike, YOU ARE BRILLIANT! JUST MESSING WITH YOU!

    Now just read what your human reasoning says:

    WHEN WE SAY:

    A SKYSCRAPER IS BIGGER THAN A HOUSE!

    WE WOULD KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    WHEN WE SAY:

    THE ATLANTIC OCEAN IS BIGGER THAN THE MEDITERRANE SEE!

    WE WOULD KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    WHEN WE SAY:

    A GIANT IS BIGGER THAN A DWARF!

    WE WOULD KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    WHEN WE SAY:

    A WHALE IS BIGGER THAN A DOLPHIN!

    WE WOULD KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    NOW TELL ME MIKE!

    WHEN WE SAY:

    GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…

    WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

    SINCE WE DON’T KNOW WHAT GOD IS!

    And, not even SCRIPTURE ITSELF KNOW WHAT GOD IS!

    FOR GOD’S SAKE!

    I TELL YOU SOMETHING Mike, WITH THE HOPE THAT YOUR PERCEPTION REGARDING GOD WOULD BE IMPROVED, AND THIS IS NOT FROM ME, BUT FROM ABOVE:

    NOT FROM SATAN! READ:

    GOD IS A STATE!

     A STATE OF LOVE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872871
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Proclaimer said to Berean: Using that measuring stick, then angels and men are also God. Theos without the definite article just like John 1:1c means a qualitative interpretation rather than a literal one identifying a person.

    Using your measuring stick, Jesus is most certainly literally God and Lord.

    Notice the definite article where Thomas says “the Lord of me and the God of me” in the interlinear below. He is referring to Jesus, btw.

    Jesus Appears to Thomas, John 20:27-29
    …27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    Screen Shot 2021-08-16 at 4.57.01 PM

    So no matter what you want to say about John 1:1, John 20:28 is clearly referring to Jesus as Thomas’ God and Lord with the definite article. Not to mention that the Father refers to the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands from Heb 1.

     

    #872872
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer:

    You said: God has divine nature, but many doctrines argue that divine nature has God

    Me: Name a doctrine that says that.

    #872874
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer:

    You said: God has divine nature, but many doctrines argue that divine nature has God

    Me: Name a doctrine that says that.

    The Trinity. “Three persons, one substance”. Thus the substance is the one true God (He) and three persons (they) qualify as being in the club. The Binity is similar, but without the third member. Further, there are many takes on the Trinity.

    #872875
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    And the Word WAS “THEOS”

    The context, you admit it means “DIVINE”
    Now, HEBREWS 1: 3, HOW ARE YOU INTERPRETING?

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ACCORDING TO HEBREWS 1 EXCEPT THE SON OF GOD?

    THE BRIGTNESS OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (ESSENCE)

    Everything you say here doesn’t make him God himself. It makes him divine. It makes him the image of God. The only begotten Son of God. The Word of God.

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    The truth is this. He came from God. He is the Father after all and Jesus is his Son.

    #872876
    Berean
    Participant

    To all,

    If we do not believe that 1) Jesus is the One who is called by John “The Word” in the beginning, and
    2) that he was God (v.1), we are on quicksand and we will not be able to believe that he created all things (v.2)

    IF JESUS IS NOT GOD (John1-Heb.1: 3) IN THE BEGINNING AND NOTHING CREATED ANYTHING (John1: 3), HE CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO BE MADE FLESH (John1: 14) and TO BE OUR SAVIOR BY RECONCILING US WITH THE FATHER TO RECEIVE THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS AND GIVE US ETERNAL LIFE.

    IF HE IS NOT GOD IN THE BEGINNING ACCORDING TO JOHN 1: 1 AND HEBREWS 1: 3 HE HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    BECAUSE HE WOULD CLAIM TO SAVE A WORLD AND ITS INHABITANTS THAT HE DID NOT CREATE AND THEREFORE HE DOES NOT KNOW …
    AND A JESUS NOT CREATOR CANNOT  BE A TRUE SAVIOR …

    THINK ABOUT THIS ….

    #872877
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Notice the definite article where Thomas says “the Lord of me and the God of me” in the interlinear below. He is referring to Jesus, btw.

    The words that Thomas’ spoke to Jesus literally mean ‘the Lord of me and the God of me’. This is simply an address to two identities. If Thomas wanted to convey that Jesus was Lord and God too, he could have said: ‘the Lord and God of me’. It seems easy to accept that when addressing Jesus Christ, that you could address God too. Certainly when we give thanks we often thank Jesus and God and we are encouraged to do so in scripture too.

    Ephesians 5:20
    always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    #872878
    Proclaimer
    Participant
    #872879
    Proclaimer
    Participant
    #872884
    gadam123
    Participant

    Fair enough gadam. But I will say that you make the argument here that the New Testament is inconsistent in that it teaches he is God then a man etc.

    In actual fact the New Testament is consistent whether it is true or not. Here is the main narrative wrapped up in a few verses. The rest of the New Testament concurs with this. It is very consistent . What has got in the way for many is millenia of traditions mostly started by powerful misguided men. Once you block tradition out and read the New Testament for what it says, then it is very clear and consistent.

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks again for your reply to my post. I am not alone in stating that the NT is diversity than unity on the nature of Jesus. There are number of NT scholars who wrote much on this aspect.

    I am not going for the details on these difference of opinions on Jesus as it is sufficient to prove that the Christianity divided much on the person and nature of Jesus which is clearly visible on this Forum.

    Of course for you,this is the myth. That God paid the highest price for our souls by paying the debt of sin which is death by sending his best. His only begotten Son. The first to be with him

    Yes the poetic passage you quoted from Phil 2 is mythic in nature on Jesus the man. It is a much debated topic on various Forums. ‘God sending his beloved son for redemption of souls’ is no where found in the Hebrew Bible. If it is so much important a theme, I think the Hebrew Bible certainly must have recorded it and reminded every one on this so called mystery so many times just like the coming Messianic rule.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    #872885
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Okay Carmel, I just asked Jesus in his own name if he is God – or the holy servant of God.  Jesus told me to read the scriptures, where it’s abundantly clear that he can’t very well BE his and our God if he is the son, servant, prophet, spokesman, priest, messiah, holy one, angel, first creation, and sacrificial lamb OF his and our God.

    Me: This time you are perfectly right Mike!

    BUT THERE’S ONE THING WHICH I AM SURE OF THOUGH!

    DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS?

    THAT YOU SIMPLY ASKED THE WRONG JESUS, WHO IS WITHIN YOUR MENTALITY AND HE IS NEITHER  THE ONE WHO IS IN YOUR HEART  NOR THE ONE WHO IS

    GODMAN IN SCRIPTURE!

    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold

    I am THE Lord the God of ALL FLESH:

    shall anything be hard for me? 

    MIke, ARE YOU IN THE POSITION TO DEFINE THE TERM

    ALL FLESH?

    GOD THE FATHER HAS NO FLESH FOR SURE!

    AND IN THE ABOVE HE IS REFERRING TO

    JESUS CHRIST!

    HE IS THE OWNER OF 

    ALL FLESH! MORE APPROPRIATE:

    GODMAN!

    John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him:

    My Lord, and my God.

    Mike in the above it is clear that

    JESUS  IS A  UNIQUE

    HUMAN/DIVINE/SPIRIT/FLESH BEING! 

    Mike, are you in the position to define the term:

    MY GOD?

    What actually Thomas MEANT?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872894
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    gadam, when you know the truth there is no contradiction because there is no contradiction in truth.

    Doctrines in scripture are clear and in unity. So-called contradictions are easily cleared up. They are simply misunderstandings that can be cleared up easily enough.

    I challenge people when they say there is contradiction. Trouble is there are a lot of brainwashed people out there who teach and follow traditions that were passed down.

    If a person was deserted on an island with a Bible and had never read it or been taught it, they would never come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ was God or that Hell was eternal for example. These extrabiblical doctrines need to be taught first, then some scriptures seem to leap out at them.

    If a person can skip tradition and go straight to the scriptures and read it, they will find a united front of truth and revelation.

    #872895
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes the poetic passage you quoted from Phil 2 is mythic in nature on Jesus the man. It is a much debated topic on various Forums. ‘God sending his beloved son for redemption of souls’ is no where found in the Hebrew Bible. If it is so much important a theme, I think the Hebrew Bible certainly must have recorded it and reminded every one on this so called mystery so many times just like the coming Messianic rule.

    What do you think the whole Passover sacrifice (Passover lamb) was all about. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was a sign to God, when the angel passed through the land to not send his judgement on that household.

    When John the Baptist stepped forward in John 1:29 and introduced Jesus as the Lamb of God, he did so as the final Old Testament prophet, the son of a priest, and as the chosen forerunner of Christ. He identified Jesus as the Passover Lamb of God, how powerful, complete and transforming is that truth. Think of the dramatic sequence God had planned just on the day of Christ’s crucifixion. On the day Christ died on the Cross – for our sins, it was the fourteenth day of Abib, A.D. 33.

    At the third hour (9:00 AM), Israel’s high priest tied the Passover lamb to the altar for sacrifice. At that exact moment outside the city walls of Jerusalem, Jesus, the Lamb of God, was nailed to the cross.

    For six hours both the Passover lamb and Jesus the Lamb of God, awaited death. Finally, at the ninth hour (3:00 PM), the high priest ascended the altar in the temple and sacrificed the Passover lamb.

    At that exact moment from the Cross Christ’s words thundered out over the city of Jerusalem, “It is finished!”

    https://www.christianity.com/jesus/is-jesus-god/names-of-jesus/how-is-jesus-our-passover-lamb.html

    God’s plan was not finished thousands of years ago. It is still in action today and to come. Israel is part of his future plans as is the Church.

    1 Peter 1:17-25
    Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

    “All people are like grass,
        and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    25     but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
    And this is the word that was preached to you.

    #872897
    gadam123
    Participant

    What do you think the whole Passover sacrifice (Passover lamb) was all about. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was a sign to God, when the angel passed through the land to not send his judgement on that household.

    When John the Baptist stepped forward in John 1:29 and introduced Jesus as the Lamb of God, he did so as the final Old Testament prophet, the son of a priest, and as the chosen forerunner of Christ. He identified Jesus as the Passover Lamb of God, how powerful, complete and transforming is that truth. Think of the dramatic sequence God had planned just on the day of Christ’s crucifixion. On the day Christ died on the Cross – for our sins, it was the fourteenth day of Abib, A.D. 33.

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your replies to my post. It’s good that you are studying Hebrew scriptures by quoting the NT scriptures.

    But the writers of the NT misinterpreted Hebrew scriptures to suit their agenda on Jesus the supposed Messiah. Yes the writer of Fourth Gospel identified Jesus as the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of world and also he placed Jesus’ crucifixion on the eve of Passover of Jews. Please study the Hebrew Bible properly the Passover Lamb was not meant for atonement of sins but it was for the commemorating the deliverance of people of Israel from the slavery of Egypt. This is not meant for any other people or for any other purpose. This is the reason why the writer of Hebrews interpreted Jesus’ death as an atonement for the remission of sins by comparing with the High Priest who takes the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies on the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). Please read Heb 9 for more details on this subject. This is also  one example of diversity on Jesus.

    So what do you say, whether Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover or on the Day of Atonement?

    Here are Jewish arguments on this subject for your kind information;

    Evangelical Christians often draw a comparison between the Paschal Lamb and Jesus, insisting that the former foreshadows the latter. This idea is advanced in the New Testament, particularly in the fourth Gospel, where John portrayed Jesus as the fulfillment of the Passover lamb. Yet how valid a point is this? What is the meaning of this holiday sacrifice? Is there a relationship between this festival offering and atonement for sin?

    The Bible relates in Exodus 12:3-13 that as the Jewish people were preparing themselves for the momentous Exodus from Egypt, God commanded them to slaughter a year-old sheep or goat on the 14th day of the first month (Nissan). They were to place its blood on the outside doorposts of their homes. Because Christians insist that the blood of the Paschal lamb foreshadowed the atonement of the blood of Jesus at Calvary, it behooves us to question the soundness of this claim.

    The Passover lamb did not atone for sin and accordingly, this idea is nowhere to be found in the Jewish Scriptures. It goes without saying that the notion that the Paschal Lamb is a representation of a crucified savior or an atonement is alien to the teachings of the Torah.

    A mindful study of the Jewish Scriptures reveals that the Paschal Lamb was alluded to long before the Exodus from Egypt. Centuries earlier, Abraham’s faith was tested by God when he commanded him to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac. Genesis 22:7-8 relates that as the two ascended Mount Moriah together, Isaac asked his father,

    “Here is the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the offering?” Abraham then replied, “God will see to a lamb for an offering, my son.” (Genesis 22:7-8)

    The question that comes to mind is, what happened to that lamb that Abraham promised? A few verses later we find that ram was sacrificed rather than a lamb! Where was the lamb to which Abraham was prophetically referring?

    The answer of course is that our father Abraham was prophetically alluding to the Paschal lamb. Just as God tested Abraham’s faith to demonstrate his worthiness to be the father of the chosen people, the young Jewish nation also had to have their faith tested to show their worthiness to participate in the exodus from Egypt, receive the Torah at Mount Sinai, and emerge as the progenitors of the covenant people who would forever be known as “a light to the nations.”

    During the period of the Exodus in Ancient Egypt, the lamb was deified and worshiped as a god. By Egyptian law, it was therefore forbidden to harm a lamb in any way; such an act was considered a crime punishable by death.

    For this reason, Moses refused Pharaoh’s initial offer that the Jews bring their sacrifice to God while remaining in Egypt, following the third plague of lice. Moses explained to Pharaoh that it would be impossible for his people to sacrifice these animals in this land because the Egyptians would execute us for carrying out this ceremony (Exodus 8:25-26).

    The Almighty, therefore, tested the faithfulness of the Jewish people by commanding them to kill Egypt’s cherished god, and place the lamb’s blood on their doorposts, displayed for all of their neighbors to see. Only those Israelites who, like Abraham, demonstrated that they feared nothing but the God of Israel were deemed worthy to have their homes “passed over” during the tenth and final plague.

    It is worth noting that the synoptic gospels, i.e. the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, do not associate Jesus with the Paschal Lamb. The Book of John, on the other hand, draws a clear link between the two (John 1:29-34). The synoptic Gospels insist that Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover – the 15th day of Nissan. Written several decades after the synoptic Gospels, the John’s author accordingly has Jesus crucified on the eve of Passover, the 14th day of Nissan, when the lambs were slaughtered. As a result, the Passover Seder is noticeably absent in John’s Passion Narrative.

     

    #872900
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    HOW ARE YOU INTERPRETING Hebrews 1: 3? PLEASE  ANSWER MY QUESTION THANKS

     

     

    #872901
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    By saying that the Son IS THE REFLECTION OF THE FATHER’S GLORY, AND THE EXACT FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON, WE ARE NOT DETRONTING THE FATHER OF HIS SUPREMACY. WE DON’T OCCULT THE FACT THAT HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD. AMEN !

    #872903
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Interesting that Adam’s post does not mention the term “redemption” or “redeem” or “firstborn” yet to celebrate the Passover Moses writes this:

    11“Now when the LORD brings you to the land of the Canaanite, as He swore to you and to your fathers, and gives it to you, 12you shall devote to the LORD every firstborn of a womb, and every firstborn offspring of an animal that you own; the males belong to the LORD. 13But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck; and every firstborn among your sons you shall redeem. 14And it shall be when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is this?’ then you shall say to him, ‘With a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery. 15And it came about, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the LORD put to death every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from human firstborns to animal firstborns. Therefore, I sacrifice to the LORD the males, every firstborn of a womb, but every firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ 16So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt.”

    Jesus is the “clean” firstborn, the “firstborn Lamb,” who redeems the “unclean” firstborn, the “firstborn donkey.” To redeem in this situation was to pay a price (the shedding of blood from the clean one) to buy back the freedom of the slaves (spiritual Israel). This most certainly ties Jesus to the Paschal Lamb. The atonement is the result of the redemption, the blood was the “currency” used for the redemption. The blood was shed to redeem the sinner so that the sinner would receive the ultimate atonement back into a relationship with God, as I understand it. Before Jesus returns for the future great day of atonement, those who have faith in the redemptive act of Jesus death, are sealed by the indwelling Spirit of God as a pledge to be ultimately realized on that great day.

    It is really beautiful. Jesus paid the price that we could not pay because the payment had to be made from the Clean One (Jesus) for the unclean ones. An unclean man cannot redeem an unclean man.

    I hope this helps. LU

     

    #872905
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU; “Now if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the Grave be dwell in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the grave will also quicken your mortal “BODY”, by the Spirit that dwells “in” you.

    Matthew 27:50And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent. 

    52And the graves were opened:

    and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 

    53And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection came into the holy city, and appeared to many. 

    ME: Gene BY WHOES SPIRIT  THOSE DEAD BODIES WERE RAISED?

    JUST TO KEEP YOU IN MIND HEREUNDER ARE VITAL SCRIPTURES IN RELATION TO THE RESURRECTION OF THESE SAINTS.

    The first one is a clear reference to the glorification of Jesus, the Son of Man,

    JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH, BY WHICH DEATH HIS FLESH BODY BECAME SPIRIT, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST, IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN! WHETHER YOU ACCEPTED OR NOT, SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN John13:31-32.

    John13:31When he, (Judas) therefore, was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified,

    and God (IN THE HOLY GHOST in Jesus’soul, Ezekiel 18:4 ) is glorified in him. (IN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN: The Holy Ghost, possessed Jesus’ flesh Acts 20:28)

    32If God be glorified in him, (THE SON OF MAN)

    God also will glorify him (THE SON OF MAN) in himself; (GODMAN)

    and immediately (ON HIS DEATH) will he (God in the Holy Ghost) glorify him.

     

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, (IN HIS HUMAN PERSON THE SON OF MAN) being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit,

     19In which (SPIRIT, ) also coming he (JESUS CHRIST in full glory)  preached to those spirits that were in prison: (in HELL, by which preaching they came back to life)

    Now to your scripture:

    YOU; “Now if the spirit of him(JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS)  who raised Jesus (THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ DEAD BODY)  from the Grave be dwell in you, he (JESUS CHRIST, GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS) who raised Christ Jesus (JESUS’SPIRIT, ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13;8  IN ALL SOULS) from the grave will also quicken your mortal “BODY”, by the Spirit (JESUS’ ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A  LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD rev.13:8)  that dwells “in” you.(James 1:21, Galatians 4:6)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872906
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer:

    Nice try but that is not what the trinity is.

    Also, nice try on your spin of what Thomas said. I think that Thomas referring to Jesus as the God of himself and the Lord of himself agrees perfectly with what the Father calls the Son in Hebrews 1, YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands.

    If we address Jesus as our God, in no way are we lessening the Father since for Jesus to be our head, all He is, is what we embrace. The Son with a Father and their Spirit is a package deal.

    #872908
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Nice try but that is not what the trinity is.

    Your statement is incorrect. The Trinity which is basically the creed of the Catholic Church (and daughters), basically states that the Trinity is a matter of salvation in that adherents need to believe that God is a Trinity in Unity made of the same substance. The members are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each has equal glory, majesty, and are coeternal. Each member is almighty, yet not three almighties, but one almighty. Each is also Lord and God, yet not three Gods, but one God. And within the members of this Trinity, none is greater or less than another. They are coequal. This is basically what the catholic faith is and without this faith, a man supposedly cannot be saved.

    This is a complete load of bollocks. It is purely manmade tradition created by manmade organisations. It is a million miles away from what the true faith is. The Bible teaches otherwise.

    While this seems a harsh conclusion, remember that a great falling away was prophesied. An age of rebellion, darkness, and antichrist rhetoric. In that time, the true sons of God will shine like the stars in the darkness however. God allows such ignorance because men push in their direction and eventually he let’s them be led astray because of their own impulses.

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