John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,801 through 22,820 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872617
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Gadam

    Confusion Come FROM men who don’t beleive the WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH AND HIS TESTIMONY.

    At that time, Jesus said to the Pharisees, “I am going; you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot go. The Jews said, “Does he want to kill himself, then, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot go’? He replied, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. This is why I told you that you will die in your sins. Indeed, if you do not believe that I, I AM, you will die in your sins. “So they would ask him:” Who are you? Jesus answered them, “I kept telling you this. About you, I have a lot to say and to judge. Besides, the One who sent me speaks the truth, and what I have heard from him I am speaking for the world. They did not understand that he was talking to them about the Father. Jesus said to them: “When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will understand that I, I AM, and that I do nothing of myself; what I am saying here, I am saying it as the Father taught me. He who sent me is with me; he didn’t leave me alone, because I always do what pleases him. At these words of Jesus, many believed in him (John 8: 21-30)

    #872619
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……In none of that did Jesus say he was alive before he ever came to this earth as a human or any other being.  Neither does the ” I am” thing,  mean Jesus is saying he is God either. You are one of those who Jesus said would come and say,   “I am”, and deceive many”.  Jesus know the deception in religion would be about who he really was , that is why he said that. That “MANY” would come and say what you are saying and deceive the “MANY” . That is why nearly all Christianity today is  deceived ,  only a few in comparison really know the truth,  you have been listening to the wrong ones Berean, IMO

    You are   living in carnal “mystery” religious concepts,  that is what Jesus meant by being from below, Plutonian Carnel  reasonings,  like, man Gods,  human being Gods etc,  if you had the Spirit of Truth “in”, you then you would be from above, as all who have God the Fathers Spirit in them are. They see thing in a”real”  sense, because of the Spirit of truth that abides “in” them , giving them a true “cognoscenti ” of things , not a “mysterious” ideological concepts  as you and your trinitarian teachers do. .

    Remember when Jesus said about his disciples, “they  were not of this world and he was not either?  He didn’t mean they were not in the world but,   not “of ” it. Another words,  ( coming from,  the worlds perspectives) .

    You  and others here  problem is you do not understand what it means to be from above, it is the same thing as saying you are being carnally minded not Spiritually minded,  Jesus was talking about how he and they  are thinking,  are you either viewing things, through the spirit from above, are from the from the spirit of the earth, the Carmel religious earthly reasonings .

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #872620
    Berean
    Participant

    Bla bla bla AND bla

     

    #872624
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..Question,  was King Cyrus from above,  was  he caused to be by God,  after all,  he was “prophesied” by God over 200 years before his berth, God even named him right? ,  so did he come from God , was he even sent  by God ?  Or did God  have anything to do with it at all?, I believe he both was from above and sent from above,  the same thing applies to Jesus in my opinion.  Even though they both were not alive nor existed, at the time they were both prophesied about.  How else can yo understand it ADAM.

    Peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

    #872625
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…….Was King David a human being?  SO,  what makes You think Jesus wasn’t?

    Did Jesus not say he was a SON OF MAN, around 80 times in scripture? it’s interesting why you would even question his “HUMANITY” .

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #872626
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful. 

     

    Carmel:  the above is only human reasoning!

    As opposed to what?  Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

     

    Carmel: GOD THE FATHER GRANTED JESUS ALL POWER EVEN BEFORE CREATION…

    We agree on the facts:  God (the Most High) has granted His holy servant Jesus a bunch of power.  In fact, none of God’s creations (of which Jesus himself says he is the beginning) have a lick of power on their own.  Everyone’s power comes directly from God.  Jesus is no different in that regard… although his and our God, YHWH, has granted Jesus a LOT more power than He’s granted anyone else.

    So my factual assertion remains:  Jesus has exactly the amount of power that his and our God granted him.  No more, no less.  And your own FACTUAL words above agree with me.  It’s just that after you post the facts, you often descend into utterly nonsensical and non-scriptural personal interpretations that bear no resemblance to the truth we learn in the Bible.

     

    #872627
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!

    IT’S CLEAR !?

    HEBREWS 1: 3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..

    Okay, let’s reason this out together, using the prophet Elijah as a makeshift example.

    What Elijah is, his son is also, physically and spiritually speaking, right?  And Elijah’s son could even be the spitting image of his dad, to the point that everyone tells him how much he reminds them of his dad, right?  But Elijah’s son is NOT the PERSON of Elijah, right?  And you have agreed that God’s son is NOT the PERSON of God, right?  And since Elijah’s son is not the actual person of Elijah, then his son doesn’t know all the things Elijah knows.  His son can’t automatically do miracles and healings and raise people from the dead like Elijah did, right?

    You starting to see it yet?

    God’s son is of the same substance of God – just like Elijah’s son is of the same substance of Elijah.

    God’s son imitates his Father and is the spitting image of Him – just like Elijah’s son imitates his father and is the spitting image of him.

    God’s son doesn’t know as much and isn’t as powerful as his Father – just like Elijah’s son doesn’t know as much and isn’t as powerful as his father.

    Jesus is not the person of God, Berean, but one of the many holy servants OF God.  This is what the scriptures teach.

    Amen?

    #872628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Micah: 5: 2

    …. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    The Hebrew words actually mean:  “his origin is from days of old, ancient times”.

    And you don’t even deny that, because you admit that Jesus is the only-begotten of God, right?  Was God ever begotten by anyone, Berean?  Was Jesus?  Okay then, that should tell you that Jesus isn’t God.

    Jesus was begotten + God wasn’t begotten = Jesus can’t possibly be God.

    #872629
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  It’s like saying that we live in a forest and the owner of the forest resides outside the forest. So no matter what direction you look while in the forest, you are looking toward the owners residence.

    Ah… but the owner of the forest and his 24 managers don’t reside together everywhere “outside the forest”.  The owner has a throne surrounded by 24 manager thrones at one specific location outside the forest.  So if those thrones are east of your location, then you are NOT looking towards them when you look west, north, or south.  You are only looking towards the owner and his managers when you are looking east… ONE direction only.

    Do you think that when God’s angels come to present themselves before God (as in Job 1:6 for instance), there are myriads of angels going to billions of different locations to do that?  Is God’s throne surrounded by the 24 elder thrones and the 4 creatures located in all different directions from your location on the ball earth?  You can argue that “God is everywhere” (which is a misunderstanding of scripture), but what about the 24 elders, Jesus on a throne to God’s right, and the 4 creatures who are in His presence at all times? Are they also “everywhere” at once?

    Hopefully you can see how your analogy fails, and therefore how your argument for a ball earth equally fails.  God is ABOVE us.  And God is only in one place – His throne in heaven.  So either God is above you and BELOW Kathi (she must look at the ground to gaze towards Him), or you and Kathi both live on the flat, stationary plane described in scripture, and each of you can look ABOVE your heads towards God at the same time.

    Proclaimer:  And most language in the Bible is from our perspective because it is written for us. So yes, from our perspective I look up and you look up. There is nothing in scripture and science that says this is exactly the same direction is there. It is relative.

    There is nothing that even SUGGESTS that “up” is a relative term in scripture. Nor is there anything in scripture that says the writers of Bible were only making stuff up about how they understood the world from their own limited perspective.  Rather, they wrote of things God Himself showed them, and often they would be speaking by God’s Holy Spirit (Matt 22:43-44).

    Which brings me to the question you keep refusing to answer:  King David (quite possibly speaking in the Spirit) said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David (and possibly the Holy Spirit) LYING?  Yes or No?

    Proclaimer:  You do a huge disservice to yourself with this flat earth teaching. When people feel convicted by what you say about God and Jesus etc, they will remember your teachings on the Flat Earth and brush all that you say off.

    What I say about God and Jesus comes directly from the scriptures.  What I say about the shape of our world also comes directly from the same scriptures.

    So maybe YOU should be worried about people brushing you off because you say scriptural things about God, but completely unscriptural things about the world that God Himself described for us.

    #872630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON.  AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.

    That is 100% scriptural.  Amen!  But just so you know, you can eliminate “THE FATHER” from the first sentence, and it would still be 100% scriptural…

    GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…

    Two persons.  Only one of them is THE God.  The other is THE God’s holy servant, Jesus.

    #872631
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  David, the writer of this Psalm 110, calls his descendant “my Lord” and is shown that his “Lord” will sit at the right hand of YHVH. The million dollar question is how is it that David calls his son “Lord?”

    The question has been put to you, Gene… by Kathi AND by Jesus himself in Matt 22:45.

    You say Jesus is strictly from the loins of David.  But if Jesus is David’s descendant only – how is it that David referred to him as “my Lord”?

    #872632
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Jesus is not the person of God, Berean, but one of the many holy servants OF God.  This is what the scriptures teach.

    Amen? 

    ME

    No,  not AMEN

    JESUS IS: see HEBREWS1:3

    Meditate on it

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    #872633
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Jesus was begotten + God wasn’t begotten = Jesus can’t possibly be God.

    Me

    It’s as if you deny that a human son begotten by his human father, IS NOT HUMAN

    THE SON OF GOD HAS INHERITED EVERYTHING FROM THE FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE

    AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”

    #872634
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

     

    That is 100% scriptural.  Amen!  But just so you know, you can eliminate “THE FATHER” from the first sentence, and it would still be 100% scriptural…

    GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…

    Two persons.  Only one of them is THE God.  The other is THE God’s holy servant, Jesus. 

    Me

    The FATHER IS bigger the Son IN AGE, NOT IN GLOBAL POWER

    See AGAIN HEBREWS 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, 

     

    #872635
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ah… but the owner of the forest and his 24 managers don’t reside together everywhere “outside the forest”.  The owner has a throne surrounded by 24 manager thrones at one specific location outside the forest.  So if those thrones are east of your location, then you are NOT looking towards them when you look west, north, or south.  You are only looking towards the owner and his managers when you are looking east… ONE direction only.

    I’ll play along with the 2 dimensional analogy.

    The holy city has a gate in the east, west, north, and south.

    And did you mention already what is below hades and the deep? Or does that continue forever? Just endless water.

    #872636
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What would be a better example to demonstrate that Lord (adon Strong’s 113) is not always a human ruler, Proclaimer, since you think there could be a better example?

    Or that it just means ruler. And if it is God, you would define that or say YHWH.

    Like the word king. There are many kings. But if you were referring to King Jesus, you would likely stipulate that if the context didn’t do that. Otherwise  you could confuse the hearers to think it might be another king.

    But you are essentially making the argument that it is Jesus because he is a king. That is too much of an assumption to make.

    #872637
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There is nothing that even SUGGESTS that “up” is a relative term in scripture. Nor is there anything in scripture that says the writers of Bible were only making stuff up about how they understood the world from their own limited perspective.  Rather, they wrote of things God Himself showed them, and often they would be speaking by God’s Holy Spirit (Matt 22:43-44).

    Let me educate you. If I climb up the property ladder then that means I’m upgrading my one story house for a two story house right?

    Up means higher. Higher doesn’t always mean against gravity. You don’t even believe in gravity, yet it is essential to your definitions and perspective.

    #872647
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…..Question,  was King Cyrus from above,  was  he caused to be by God,  after all,  he was “prophesied” by God over 200 years before his berth, God even named him right? ,  so did he come from God , was he even sent  by God ?  Or did God  have anything to do with it at all?, I believe he both was from above and sent from above,  the same thing applies to Jesus in my opinion.  Even though they both were not alive nor existed, at the time they were both prophesied about.  How else can yo understand it ADAM.

    Hi brother Gene, Your example of Persian King Cyrus with Jesus the supposed Messiah is quite amazing. In fact Second (Deutero) Isaiah quoted him as Messiah (Anointed) in Chap 45. He was a non-Israelite (Pagan) King who was favourable to Jewish Exiles for their return to build the Temple in Jerusalem. Yes he is comparable to the future Messiah who too will be a human being unlike the Christian non-human Messiah. Messiah ‘Coming down from above’ is some thing mythological creation of the NT writers which is foreign to Hebrew Bible.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    #872648
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……… Yes Cyrus was a anointed servant of God, Just as Moses, all the prophets and yes even Jesus, they were all human servants of God, led by his Holy Spirit , to do his will. They were all human beings.
    Our difference I believe, is you no longer believe Jesus was the Messiah, that was prophesied to come, I believe scripture shows he certainly was, and had to accomplish other things then just be the Messiah of the Jews,and do what they wanted. What scriptures say he can only appear “ONCE” , I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT IN Any SCRIPTURE HAVE YOU ?

    The Messiah could come and go many times , his mission , could change every time he actually appears . Where does it say Jesus have to perform his “whole” commission while he was here the first time on this earth, but that certainly is not saying he will not finish it when he returns, right? He fulfilled what was prophesied for him to do at his first coming, and will fulfill what he is commissioned to do at his second coming also.

    ADAM , the Jew have every reason to reject him , because he didn’t do what they wanted him to do for them at his first appearance , but his first mission was not “just” for the Jews or Israel, but for all of mankind, the Jews being just a drop in the bucket of mankind and the nation of Israel.

    Also the Jews have to deal with the fact they killed him, so naturally they reject him then, as they do now, why would they admit they were wrong and the murders of the true Messiah, our lord Jesus Christ.

    Be careful Adam to not get caught up, in to much of their rejection of Jesus our lord, they will someday repent and be greave sorrily, at him who they rejected, and rejecting him Adam, is also Rejecting him who sent him brother.

    Peace and love to you and your Adam ……………gene

    #872650
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Agreed. The Father is greater than the Son because the Father as in a father/son relationship naturally has authority over his son. However the father and son would be equal in the type of being that they are.

    But Jesus’ God and Father is also our God and Father, right?  We are also His children, who were created in His likeness, right? Yet we are not equal in type of being.  So we can’t apply our own experience of flesh entities begetting like kinds to the one and only uncreated Most High God producing children – because an uncreated entity couldn’t possibly beget another uncreated entity.  The latter would have a beginning/origin.  So Jesus could be “equal in type” as far as being a spirit entity, but then so are all of God’s other spirit sons.

    Consider the priest Melchizedek in the scriptures…

    Heb 7:3… Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life…

    Melchizedek is a mystery to us, but what if he married and begat a son?  Would his son also be “without father or mother… without beginning” just because his father had those qualities?

    No, his son would be equal in type, but would not have those other qualities.  It is the same with Jesus.  Our heavenly Father has no father or beginning.  His firstborn Son has both a Father and a beginning.

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