John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,781 through 22,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872573
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    I agree that LORD in all caps is YHVH and never only a human ruler. I disagree that LORD written in all caps is how the translators indicate the Hebrew word adonai. I also disagree that adon is ONLY for human rulers and I will show you one of several proofs of that:

    Isaiah 10:33

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is lopping a branch with violence, And the high of stature are cut down, And the lofty are become low,…

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon. Now do you still want to tell me that adon is only referring to human rulers, Gene?

    #872575
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……very simple , they were “messengers” of God,  both Jesus and Paul were. Human messengers.  Not angelic beings, as you falsely assume.

    t seems to me IT’S NOT SIMPLE AT ALL SINCE YOU DID’T UNDERSTAND WHAT PAUL SAID AND MEANT!

    READ AGAIN:

    Galatians 4:12 Be ye as I, because I also am as you: brethren, I beseech you: you have not injured me at all. 13And you know, how through infirmity of the flesh, I preached the gospel to you heretofore: and your temptation in my flesh,

     14You despised not, nor rejected:

    but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #872584
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….. I even told you how many times both those words were written in the Hebrew text,  why not make a true search, and check it out , it’s on the internet for all to see, if they truly want to.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #872587
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You wrote:

    When the singular adon is used , it usually refers to a human lord , Adon is used 215 times referring to men.

    Do you see that word “usually” Gene? That means that adon doesn’t always refer to a human lord. Therefore, you can not say that the adon in Psalm 110:1 is a human ruler just because it is adon. Adon can also mean a non-human lord. I gave you a perfect example of this in my last post to you.

    Isaiah 10:33

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is lopping a branch with violence, And the high of stature are cut down, And the lofty are become low,…

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon obviously not meaning a human ruler there. It is not the word adonai, Strong’s #136.

    See for yourself:

    Screen Shot 2021-08-04 at 2.48.11 PM

    See that little blue number #113 above “the Lord”, that is adon, not Strong’s #136 which is adonai.

    #872588
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: As far as what is thine are mine , that is also simple “ALL things are God the Fathers, and he made them for US,  the future heirs of them, just the same as Jesus,  or haven’t you ever read “we ARE “JOINT” HEIRS WITH Jesus Christ.”  And what Heb2 says. .  God the father gives everything on this earth for all of mankind,  even the “MAN” Jesus Christ. Just another proof of Jesus’ actual human existence, even now. IMO

     

    Me: NO Gene, IT’S NOT SIMPLE AT ALL, FOR GOD’S SAKE,

    YOU ARE COMPLETELY CONFUSED AND LOST IN YOU CARNAL REASONING I’M AFRAID, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    WOULD YOU READ PLEASE AGAIN AND UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT!

    John17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me:

    because they are thine: 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS REFERRED TO THE APOSTLES. WHO ORIGINALLY WERE GOD’S ANGELS AND WERE GIVEN TO JESUS TO ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH AND PROCLAIM HIS GOSPEL ON EARTH. Well clear in Zacharia 3:6-7

    THEN JESUS CONTINUED AND SAID:

    10And all my things are thine,

    NOW ATTENTION Gene, WHAT ARE ALL JESUS’ HUMAN THINGS , and with Jesus’  SPIRITUAL task on earth became also the FATHER’S, once Jesus glorified and became one substance with the Holy Ghost?

    Well mentioned by Jesus in

    John16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.  Therefore I said, that he shall RECEIVE OF MINE, and show it to you.

    NOW TO THE NEXT ONE:

    and thine are mine;

    TELL ME Gene, WHAT ARE ALL GOD’S SPIRITUAL THINGS WHICH BECAME JESUS’ THINGS ONCE JESUS GLORIFIED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST?

    NOW TO THE LAST MOST VITAL STATEMENT Gene:

    and I am glorified in them. 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS DECLARED THAT:

    ONLY HE IS GLORIFIED BOTH IN ALL THE SPIRITUAL THINGS OF THE FATHER AND ALSO IN

    ALL THE HUMAN THINGS OF THE SON OF MAN, ONCE HE GLORIFIED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!John13:31-32

    GOT IT Gene?

    NOW WHETHER YOU BELEIVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON,

    WHEN JESUS AFTER HIS RESURRECTION MANIFESTED HIMSELF IN FRONT OF HIS DISCIPLES

    IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY,

    THOUGH HE WAS VISIBLE  IN THE FLESH ALRIGHT, HE ALSO WAS EQUIVALENTLY

    SPIRIT.

    1 Peter 3:18Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in THE FLESH, but enlivened in

    THE SPIRIT, 

    19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: (HELL)

    THUS, DESPITE HE DIED IN HIS FLESH, HE LOST NOTHING BOTH OF HIS SPIRIT, AND HIS FLESH IN FACT

    HE INTEGRATED THEM INTO ONE SUBSTANCE

    AND HE MAKES USE OF BOTH AS HE SEES FIT. Well confirmed by Jesus in

    John 6: 39Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me,

    I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again on the last day. 

    ON HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH WHEN HE DIED ON  THE CROSS.

    John13:31-32When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified,

    and God is glorified in him. 

    32If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself;

    and immediately (ON HIS DEATH) will he glorify him.

    YOU: Jesus is not a God, nor a Angelic being, nor is he a “spirit being, no more the we are.”

    ME: SO ACCORDING TO YOUR CRNAL REASONING  JESUS DIDN’T GLORIFIED AT ALL! AND JESUS LIED IN JOHN`3:31 -32!

    ,  there is not  a single text that say Jesus is now a spirit being, of any kind,

    ME: Well, THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE SPEAKS BY ITSELF THE TRUTH Mr. Gene.

    but God is SPIRIT , and Jesus is not,  

    Just as Jesus himself “clearly” said.

    ME: IT’S NOT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOUR CARNAL MENTALITY I’M AFRAID!READ:

    Luke 24:39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872591
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    That word Lord in Isaiah 10:33 is the word adon obviously not meaning a human ruler there. It is not the word adonai, Strong’s #136.

    Sounds like it could be any ruler. Perhaps even angels. Mostly men by the sound of it.

    #872592
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Do you see that word “usually” Gene? That means that adon doesn’t always refer to a human lord. Therefore, you can not say that the adon in Psalm 110:1 is a human ruler just because it is adon. Adon can also mean a non-human lord. I gave you a perfect example of this in my last post to you.

    Without looking into it, it sounds like the majority of the time it is not.

    And your example of it being used of YHWH is not the best example because it tells you which Lord, therefore of course you can use the general word if you are defining which Lord.

    Simarly, I could say that God is a spirit but so are angels. But when I say the Father of Spirits, then yes it is God. You generally would not refer to God as a spirit unless you qualified which Spirit. In the sense that you wouldn’t say that a Spirit answered my prayer. You might say the Father of Spirits.

    Does this help?

    #872594
    carmel
    Participant

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is

    the One who is the most powerful. 

    ME: PERFECT Mike! FROM A HUMAN’S POINT OF VIEW!

    The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME NOT PERFECT Mike, from A HUMAN’S POINT OF VIEW  I’M AFRAID.

    HOW MANY TIMES I MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU AND TO Gene, and Jodi, 

    NOT TO PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS?

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    NOW TO YOUR HUMAN PERCEPTION! 

    NOT PERFECT!

    YOU: Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

    ME: POOR Mike,

    Read hereunder scripture:

    King David also said: Call me Sadoc the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Banaias the son of Joiada. And when they were come in before the king, 33He said to them: Take with you the servants of your lord, and set my son Solomon upon my mule: and bring him to Gihon. 

    34And let Sadoc the priest, and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and you shall sound the trumpet, and shall say:

    God save king Solomon.

     35And you shall come up after him, and he shall come, and shall sit upon my throne, and he shall reign in my stead: and I will appoint him to be ruler over Israel, and over Juda. 

    36And Banaias the son of Joiada answered the king, saying:

    Amen: so say the Lord the God of my lord the king. 

    37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king, so be he with Solomon,

    and make his throne higher than the throne of my lord king David.

    Mike JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY,

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF GOD THE FATHER. AS PROOF THAT

    HE TOPPLED SATAN’S PLAN IN FULL AND FOR ETERNITY AND FROM JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS

    GOD IN JESUS BECAME 

    GODMAN ON EARTH MOST POWERFUL EVER OVER THE ENTIRE COSMOS!

    AND AS MUCH AS KING DAVID APPOINTED SOLOMON KING AND SOLE RULER OVER HIS KINGDOM, DAVID’S,  AND SLEPT. THE LONG SLEEP.

    ALMIGHTY GOD ALSO APPOINTED JESUS CHRIST

    KING AND SOLE RULER OVER  THE ENTIRE WORK OF GOD, AND HIS KINGDOM, IN

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN, 

     AND SLEPT IN HIS LONGEST REST TILL THE DAY OF THE LORD.

    JUST READ AGAIN YOUR PERCEPTION AND IN CONTRAST  GOD’S  IN SCRIPTURE Mike: AND RESPECT GOD ‘S PERFECT WAYS

    YOU: The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.

    ME: PERFECT AS MUCH AS DAVID WAS! AND SLEPT!

    YOU: The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME: NOT PERFECT THIS TIME, IN FACT IT’S A LIE!

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him. 

    No more, and no less.

    POOR MIKE! READ

    37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king,

    so be he with Solomon,

    and make his throne

    higher than the throne of my lord king David.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872596
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

    Go…. open wide the ears of your Heart ❤️ and listen

    #872599
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..Your not facing the truth, and I know why , because if you truly believed that the word “Adon” means a human ruler , then you would have to admit , David was speaking of  Jesus as a human ruler.  That would shatter your true conception of who Jesus is.  BUT remember Jesus himself said in Revelations who he was,  “the human root and offspring of king David “.  So please give this some serious consideration. It will help you, IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #872600
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    BUT remember Jesus himself said in Revelations who he was,  “the human root and offspring of king David “. 

    Me

    This is its human origin that nobody here ignores …. But you put aside its divine origin to your disadvantage because if you believed it would open the horizon for you ….

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)

    #872603
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Call no man on earth your father but one is your Father who is in heaven.  We all can from heaven , yes all humanity has.  But you chose to make mankind a sub species, and Jesus a complete different pieces then we are, even though haven told us exactly what that different species is yet,  please produce scriptural proof of just what was that species , who Jesus said he was,  if you can.

    You disdain at God the Fathers human creation, is evident by you own words,  tell then why does scripture say “it behaved “him”,  to be made like unto his “brethren”.  How could it “behave him” , what advantage would being made like us,  profit or behave “him” ? 
    Could it be that he, Jesus,  and God the Father, see’s humanity as far more important,  then Satan and all his followers do?
    “the big fact that God actually made us (mankind) , in his , VERY OWN “IMAGE” , and has put “ALL” THINGS, UNDER ALL MANKIND’S  FEET? . Heb 2  ,

    Could that be the reason Satan and his followers, despise and reject mankind?  What your not understanding  is Satan wants you to move Jesus away from the rest of mankind,  he want’s us all to think Jesus is different then we are, exactly as you and others here are doing. why?,  because he does not want you to believe your potential is exactly as Jesus’ is?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #872604
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I don’t see why you are telling me about all this … THE QUESTION IS TO KNOW IF CHRIST COMES FROM HEAVEN WHERE HE WAS WITH HIS FATHER WHO SENT HIM TO EARTH FOR A SPECIAL MISSION: TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL, IT’S NOT NOTHING …

    #872605
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    We all can from heaven  

    Me

    No ,no AND no….

    It makes no sense….

     

    You say this because you do not accept the reality of the simple truth … JESUS COMES FROM THE PLACE THE BIBLE CALLED “HEAVEN” WHERE IS GOD THE FATHER.

    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

    #872606
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: What your not understanding  is Satan wants you to move Jesus away from the rest of mankind,  he want’s us all to think Jesus is different then we are, exactly as you and others here are doing. why?,

     because he does not want you to believe your potential

    is exactly as Jesus’ is?

    Gene, HERE IS SCRIPTURE:

    John 15: 1 I AM the true vine;

    and my Father is the husbandman.

     2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away:

    and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 

    NOW ATTENTION Gene in order to see that 

    OUR POTENTIAL IS NOT ONLY NOT AS JESUS IS, BUT WE ARE TOTALLY DEPENDABLE ON JESUS!

    3Now you are clean by reason of the word,

    which I have spoken to you.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL Gene, THE ABOVE IS THE FIRST PROOF THAT WE ARE DEPENDABLE ON JESUS!

    HE SPOKE HIS WORD AND BY HIS WORD, OF GOD, WE BECAME CLEAN!

     4Abide in me, and I in you.

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,

    unless it abide in the vine,

    WE AS HUMANS, MERE BRANCHES, ARE NOTHING ON OUR OWN Gene, 

    WE ARE USELESS WITHOUT THE VINE, JESUS!READ:

    so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    GOT IT GENE, DO YOU WANT MORE PROOF IN ORDER TO GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND THAT JESUS’ POTENTIAL IS NOT ONLY SUPERIOR TO US BUT 

    WE ARE TOTALLY  DEPENDABLE ON HIM. KEEP ON READING:

     5I am the vine; you the branches:

    Gene, it’s PURE CLEAR AND SIMPLE ENGLISH THE WAY YOU BELEIVE IN

    ONLY AS LONG AS IT PLEASES YOU THOUGH!

    ANSWER Gene:

    IS THE VINE  DEPENDABLE ON THE BRACHES OR 

    THE BRANCHES ARE DEPENDABLE ON THE VINE?

    NO YOU WON’T ANSWER SO HERE IS THE ANSWER, READ:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    GET THIS INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND,

    YOU, LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    ARE NOTHING WITHOUT JESUS, Gene!

     YOU DON’T ONLY KNOW

    WHO JESUS IS, BUT ALSO 

    WHO YOU ARE I’M AFRAID!

    Isaiah 40:7The grass is withered, and the dower is fallen, because the spirit of the Lord hath blown upon it.

    Indeed the people is grass:

    8The grass is withered,

    and the flower is fallen: 

    but the word (JESUS, THE SON OF MAN) of our Lord

    endureth for ever.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872607
    Berean
    Participant

    I came forth FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world:

    AGAIN,

    I leave the world, and GO TO THE FATHER. (John 16:28).

    #872608
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: We all came from heaven , yes all humanity has. 

    ME: You are completely lost , Gene, and ignoring completely

    PURE CLEAR SCRIPTUR! Read;

    John 8:23 And he said to them:

    You are from beneath,

    I am from above.

    You are of this world,

    I am not of this world. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872610
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    “the human root and offspring of king David “

    Please show me where that is in the Bible specifically with the word “human.”

    #872611
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    You said:

    And your example of it being used of YHWH is not the best example because it tells you which Lord, therefore of course you can use the general word if you are defining which Lord.

    What would be a better example to demonstrate that Lord (adon Strong’s 113) is not always a human ruler, Proclaimer, since you think there could be a better example?

    Here is an example of the word Lord (adon Strong’s 113) applied to the angel and also “the Lord of all the earth.”

    Zech 6:4 So I inquired of the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my Lord (adon Strong’s 113)?”5And the angel told me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth from their station before the Lord (adon Strong’s 113) of all the earth. 6The one with the black horses is going toward the land of the north, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.” 7As the strong horses went out, they were eager to go and patrol the earth; and the LORD said, “Go and patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth.

    This is yet another strike out for Gene.

    #872612
    gadam123
    Participant

    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

    This is the big mythology created by the writer of Fourth Gospel stating that the so called Messiah came down from heaven for which there is no proof in the Hebrew Bible. This is the reason why there is much confusion and havoc in this Forum.

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