John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,741 through 22,760 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #872496
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Do you see the great deep of waters under the earth?

    Proclaimer:  Oh yeah, I see it.  What is below that? Or does the water go forever and ever and ever?

    From my same post…  We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that below the earth is water.

    Mike:  [In your model,]Where are the waters below the firmament?  Where are the waters above it?  Heck, where is the firmament, in which God placed the sun, moon, and other lights and set them on appointed circuits over the earth so we could determine times and seasons?  Where are the windows of heaven that God opened in Noah’s day to let the flood waters in from above?

    Proclaimer: Wouldn’t it be the sea that is below the firmament. And the waters above is the sky above us. Is there not water in the atmosphere?

    That would place the firmament at sea level – with the waters above the firmament being the atmosphere, and the waters below the firmament being the sea.  But God placed the lights of the sun, moon and stars in the firmament – and those lights don’t run circuits over the earth at sea level, right?

    Also, you didn’t address my original point about you and LU looking up to God’s throne at the same time from opposite sides of your ball earth.  Did the illustration help you?  Do you now understand what I was saying?  Do you accept and admit that both of you couldn’t possibly look up above your heads into the sky and see God’s throne surrounded by 24 other thrones at the same time?  Do you accept and admit that heaven would be both up and down at the same time for each of you?

    And finally (for the 12th time)…  King David told us that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David LYING to us?  Yes or No?

    #872497
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus?  Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?

    Carmel: YOU NEVER ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION BEFORE and  I NEVER ANSWERED IT, Mike.

    I did ask it.  In fact, this second time I just copied and pasted the same questions from my previous post.

    Carmel: WHAT IS THE REASON THEN THAT YOU MADE IT LOOK LIKE I ANSWERED IT BY

    PUTTING MY ANSWER FROM MY LAST POST? WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABOVE QUESTION YOU ASKED NOW.

    I know your answer had nothing to do with the questions I actually asked.  Your answers rarely do.  But that is why I copied and pasted the same questions again, in the hope that you would answer them this time.  I even added this to the end of my copied and pasted questions…  Carmel, please just answer the two questions above this time.  Thanks

    So for the love of God, man… just answer the questions this time. (It only takes two words to directly and honestly answer them.)

    #872498
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our

    God grants him. 

    ME: NO MIKE,

     NOT QUITE PRECISE 

    GOD THE FATHER, EVEN BEFORE JESUS’ PASSION, 

    GRANTED (not grants) JESUS THE ENTIRE POWER OF THE DEITY!

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father

    HAD GIVEN HIM (even before the world was) all things into his hands,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    YOU: His and our God could absolutely grant Jesus the power to do anything He could do…

    ME: the above again 

    IS NOT QUITE PRECISE Mike!

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    The above Mike  asserted that Jesus HAS ALL POWER and is in command of

    ALL THE SPIRITUAL PROCESSES AND THE PHYSICAL PROCESSES!

    John17:10 And all my things

    (PHYSICAL and HUMAN) are thine, and thine

    (SPIRITUAL DIVINE) are mine;

    and I AM glorified in them.

    ONLY JESUS RIGHT NOW POSSESSES THE GLORIFIED BODY BOTH

    SPIRIT AND FLESH IN ONE INSTANT!

    JESUS GLORIFIED BODY CONSISTS OF TWO BODIES FUSED INTO ONE,

    ONE SPIRIT, and ONE FLESH, WITHOUT BEING DETRIMENTAL IN ANY WAY AND INSTANT, TO EITHER THE SPIRIT OR THE FLESH.

    THUS WHILE JESUS RIGHT NOW CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN HIS FLESH HUMAN BODY AS HE WALKED ON EARTH IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, A BODY ANTICIPATED ON MOUNT TABOR, HE WHILE BEING PHYSICALLY IN FLESH  WOULD BE ALSO IN THE SAME INSTANT

    SPIRIT. 

    THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN

    John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:

    that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again on THE LAST DAY.

    PRECISELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS,

    HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH, WAS IN HELL FIRE IN

    HIS UNIQUE GLORIFIED FLESH/SPIRIT BODY! 

    SUPERIOR TO FIRE!

    MOSES’ BURNING BUSH AND NOT BEING CONSUMED!

    CONSEQUENTLY, JESUS ACCOMPLISHED  THIS TRANSFORMATION TASK OF

    THE FLESH INTO SPIRIT, OF WHICH

    HE POSSESSED ALREADY IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, John17:5

    FOR THE SAKE OF THE HUMAN RACE, A TASK WHICH ADAM REJECTED.

    Mike I keep on reminding you GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIS 

    LONGEST REST!

    YOU: but Jesus’ God hasn’t granted him that much power.  A very lot of power to be sure, but not that much.

    Mike read again THE ABOVE, AND RESPECT SCRIPTURE

    ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    YOU: Jesus even tells us, “the Son can do nothing by himself”, right? (John 5:19)

    ME: WHICH ASO CONFIRMS THAT THE FATHER CAN DO NOTHING BY HIMSELF ON EARTH AS A HUMAN SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT!

    Mike, Jesus even tells us :

    John16:15 All THINGS whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive OF MINE, and show it to you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel, here’s a screenshot of where I asked you those questions a week ago…

    Screenshot (180)

    So forget all the rest of the nonsense, and just answer those two questions please.

    #872500
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our God grants him. 

     

    Carmel: NO MIKE, NOT QUITE PRECISE 

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:  All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.  The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

     

    #872501
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!

    IT’S CLEAR !?

    HEBREWS 1: 3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..

    Micah: 5: 2

    …. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

     

    #872502
    Berean
    Participant

    #872503
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful. 

    ME: the above is only human reasoning!

    GOD’S PROCESSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN PROCESSES.

    Jesus emptied Himself of His DIVINE SPIRIT, and He offered Himself for the love of the Father and His kingdom, the fact that it is the kingdom of the Son. Now while the Father remained in heaven in His original Glory with Jesus ad INTRA,  ad EXTRA He was hidden in Jesus, a SPIRIT as “THE WORD” of God, in the process of creation, the Father needs the Son and the son needs the Father, a perfect harmony.  By which process Jesus emptied and poured His Spirit eternally sealed in creation as eternal life in all creatures, John6:27. Thus while He emptied Himself and became as weak as humans, spiritually in creation HE WAS THE MOST POWERFUL, but again in this process, He always remained in the oneness of the triune God. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father, one substance, despite distinct!

    YOU: The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME: PURE HUMAN REASONING!

    Isaiah 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    YOU: Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH,

    grants him.  No more, and no less.

    WRONG!

    GOD THE FATHER GRANTED JESUS

    ALL POWER EVEN BEFORE CREATION AD EXTRA, WHY?

    SIMPLY AS THE FATHER  IN HIS FULL POWER WAS ETERNALLY HIDDEN IN JESUS,  SUPPORTING  AND STRENGTHENING HIM, AS  HIS OWN SPOKEN WORD, BY WHICH GOD COMMUNICATED AND CREATED ALL.

    JESUS RIGHT NOW AND TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD IS THE MOST POWERFUL. 

    JESUS OWNS A UNIQUE BODY BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN ONE INSTANT!

    THE FATHER’S PLAN AND INTENTIONS FOR THE SAKE OF

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON AS  CHILDREN OF GOD.

    John1:3 All things were made BY HIM: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    AND WITHOUT HIM THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE AT ALL, SIMPLY AS JESUS IS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, PRECISELY ATTACHED DIRECTLY WITH CREATURES, THE LIFE OF ALL. THE FATHER WOULD HAVE DESTROYED IMMEDIATELY HIS CREATURES IN THE LEAST SPECK OF  SIN INTENTION. SOMETHING WHICH THE FATHER WOULD AND COULD NOT DO SO LONG JESUS IS IN ALL. IT WOULD BE A SUICIDE, DESTROYING HIS OWN SPIRIT, DESTROYING HIMSELF. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #872504
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.  The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

    What Mike says here is exactly right. If you are arguing against this, then you are not arguing against Mike, but the New Testament which is fine. But remember what you are arguing against. Don’t shoot the messenger.

    #872505
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!

    IT’S CLEAR !?

    HEBREWS 1: 3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..

    Micah: 5: 2

    …. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    Nothing here teaches that there were two Gods or two who are God.

    It actually fits nicely with the rest of the New Testament.

    The first to be with God was the Word.

    The Word became flesh.

    He was beheld as Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.

    The head of Christ is God just as the head of Man is Christ.

    He was begotten of God. He is divine. Emptied himself. Took on flesh. Died. Rose again. Is back in the glory of God.

    #872506
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Also, you didn’t address my original point about you and LU looking up to God’s throne at the same time from opposite sides of your ball earth.  Did the illustration help you?  Do you now understand what I was saying?  Do you accept and admit that both of you couldn’t possibly look up above your heads into the sky and see God’s throne surrounded by 24 other thrones at the same time?  Do you accept and admit that heaven would be both up and down at the same time for each of you?

    No I do not accept that. The universe surrounds us in fact we are in it.

    It’s like saying that we live in a forest and the owner of the forest resides outside the forest. So no matter what direction you look while in the forest, you are looking toward the owners residence.

    Looking up is not about gravity and you do not even believe in gravity I think. Looking up is looking toward the Most High God. By his Spirit he can dwell in things that are supposedly above and below me. But he exists outside the universe, so no matter what part of the universe I look toward, I am looking toward where he is because it is written that not even the cosmos can contain him.

    Mike you take things too literally and place them in a 3D space using 2D models. Your thinking is way to limiting for an eternal God who is above all dimensions.

    And most language in the Bible is from our perspective because it is written for us. So yes, from our perspective I look up and you look up. There is nothing in scripture and science that says this is exactly the same direction is there. It is relative.

    Just like the guy throwing the tennis ball in the train while going 100 mph. Wow he can throw it and catch it despite the speed and area that is covered while the ball is in the air. But because they are all contained and moving at the same speed, then you don’t notice it at all. Only when there is a sharp corner or acceleration and deceleration will you notice that you are actually moving.

    Up in a spiritual sense is a higher realm. There are higher beings right. Are they higher because they are standing on a ladder?

    Think about this for a second. If you went from Earth to Heaven in a heavenly chariot, yes you would ascend above the clouds and keep ascending till you were above the universe. That could be achieved from anywhere on the globe. Likewise, if you could shrink down smaller than the smallest particles what would you find there? Perhaps the Spirit of God? In a sense, that is up and down too right from our perspective? God is both outside and inside his creation. It’s not about a snow globe sitting on God’s mantelpiece. That is stone age thinking.

    Have you not read how in the last days that knowledge would increase? You do a huge disservice to yourself with this flat earth teaching. When people feel convicted by what you say about God and Jesus etc, they will remember your teachings on the Flat Earth and brush all that you say off. Perhaps you have already discovered this with friends and family.

    A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough.

    #872508
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Nothing here teaches that there were two Gods or two who are God. 

    Me

    The bible TEACHES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER, AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. (1Cor.8: 6)

    THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHRIST IS NOT (before his incarnation) OF THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURE (SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE) AS THE FATHER.

    GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON.
    AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.

    HEBREWS 1

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE IF HIS PERSON, AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    PERSON

    5287

    upostasiV
    hupostasis
    hoop-os’-tas-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance.

    #872509
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The bible TEACHES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER, AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. (1Cor.8: 6)

    THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHRIST IS NOT (before his incarnation) OF THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURE (SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE) AS THE FATHER.

    GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON.
    AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.

    Agreed.

    #872513
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Jesus SAID TO THE Father , that he was “the ONLY” , “true God”,  and Jesus is not “LORD” Adonai ,  he is “lord”  Adon, same as any human ruler is.

    You really need to make a study on the difference uses of the word Lord in scriptures. 

    peace and love to you and your………..gene

    #872515
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    Berean……Jesus SAID TO THE Father , that he was “the ONLY” , “true God”,  and Jesus is not “LORD” Adonai ,  he is “lord”  Adon, same as any human ruler is.

    You really need to make a study on the difference uses of the word Lord in scriptures.  

    Me

    Don’t belittle THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS

    Revelation 17

    These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    THE FATHER IS THE LORD GOD ALLMIGHTY

     


    Rev.19
    [1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    [6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

     

     

     

    #872516
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..what does that have to do with the word “adonia”, LORD, GOD ALMIGHTY,  and “adon” a judge or “human” ruler.
    “The LORD, “ADONIA” Almighty God,  said unto my lord “ADON” a human ruler or King , Sit on my right hand Until “I ” (almighty God)  make your (Jesus ‘) enemies your foot stole.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #872517
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean…..what does that have to do with the word “adonia”, LORD, GOD ALMIGHTY,  and “adon” a judge or “human” ruler.
    “The LORD, “ADONIA” Almighty God,  said unto my lord “ADON” a human ruler or King , Sit on my right hand Until “I ” (almighty God)  make your (Jesus ‘) enemies your foot stole.

    Is that how its worded gene?

    If so, you may have taught me something for the first time in these forums.

    #872518
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    110:1 LDVD MZMVUr N’aM YHVH L’aDNY ShB LYMYNY ‘yD-‘aShYTh ‘aYBYK HDM LUrGLYK.

    Darby’s English Translation
    110:1 {Psalm of David.} Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet.

    #872519
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jehovah said unto my Lord,

    What’s the Hebrew word for Lord in that verse, Berean?

    #872520
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    This is the interlinear for Psalms 110:1 to be read right to left:

    Screen Shot 2021-08-02 at 5.09.10 PMFrom here: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/110-1.htm

    Please see Strong’s 113 for “Lord” and see that it does not merely mean human ruler but can also apply to a divine ruler even YHVH. Gene seems to be trying to claim that only human rulers are called this but he is incorrect.

    David, the writer of this Psalm 110, calls his descendant “my Lord” and is shown that his “Lord” will sit at the right hand of YHVH. THe million dollar question is how is it that David calls his son “Lord?”

    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/113.htm

Viewing 20 posts - 22,741 through 22,760 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account