John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,721 through 22,740 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #872474
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Christ said, “THE LORD POSSESSED ME’ ‘IN THE BEGINNING’ of his way…”

    The event was when the LORD possessed Him, or as one being acquired.

    That was a nice read.  I agree that the wisdom in Prov 8 is Jesus.  Now we only need to determine the meaning of the word translated in the KJV as “possessed”.

    “Possessed” is one of the possible meanings – but if you choose to accept that meaning, then you also have no choice but to accept that, 1) Jesus can’t possibly BE the God who possesses him, and 2) Jesus is a possession of God – like a slave is the possession of the man who owns him.

    All the other times the word is used in Proverbs, it has the meaning of “acquired” (as is mentioned by your author above).  “Acquired” is another possible meaning in Prov 8:22 – but if you choose to accept that meaning, you have no choice but to once again accept that, 1) Jesus can’t possibly BE the God who acquired him, and 2) Jesus became a possession of God through that acquisition.  Of course in this case, you’d also have to struggle with what it meant for God to have “acquired” Jesus.  Did Jesus exist in some other realm or dimension, and God went to that realm/dimension and captured Jesus?  Whatever solution you come up with, the bottom line remains that Jesus can’t be the very God who acquired him.

    The third possibility is “created”.  “Created” holds the most promise for being the true meaning of the Hebrew word, because the following verses reiterate the “created” mantra by having Jesus talk about how he was “born” and “given birth”, etc.  So the context of the entire passage is Jesus telling us how he was the first of God’s creations, how he was born even before God made the earth, how he was given birth before God set the boundaries for the sea, etc.

    Also, the same Hebrew word is used in Genesis 4:1-2… Adam laid with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.” Later she gave birth to Cain’s brother Abel. 

    We still have the 3 choices here.  I think we can rule out “possessed” in this case, right?  Some Bibles give the idea of “acquired” here – but doesn’t that give the impression that Eve went walking through the wilderness, found a baby, and took it as her own?  And the third option is once again “created”, which makes the best sense – not only since Eve did in fact (with the help of God) create a new living soul that didn’t exist before – but because the surrounding context (just like with Prov 8) contains multiple mentions of “giving birth/begetting” that go hand in hand with creating a new life.

    So you choose whichever meaning makes you happy.  The bottom line is that all three of the possibilities make it clear that Jesus is not God, but instead a possession/acquisition/creation of God.

     

     

    #872475
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Israel is a he/him also.

    Good point.

    And wayward thinking  takes things like this and create doctrines that are false.

    For example. We could create a doctrine that the Son of God is made up of multiple people. The Son could be a Trinity too if you want to stretch the idea out like you are doing with God.

    Is the Son one person, two persons / a Binity, three / Trinity, etc.

    Why not? This is the sort of redicilous behavior that’s been applied to God.

    And why not the Father or Paul. Paul could have been 55 people. If Yahweh is two or three people, then Paul could be 55 people.

    #872476
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    HE HAS THE SAME NATURE OF HIS FATHER (HEBREWS 1)
    THE FATHER IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE) AND PERSONALITY. THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE)
    BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.
    AMEN?

    I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND….

    Hebrews 1

    Who being(Jesus) the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,(FATHER’S PERSON)

    #872477
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding your comment:

    I’m interested to see what you’re able to find. Let us know as soon as you have something.

    It is not poetry. The term is “collective singular,” or “collective singular.”

    A collective noun is a name for a group of people or things such as “family,” “class,” “pack,” “bouquet,” “pair,” and “flock.” Collective nouns usually take a singular verb, because they are singular in construction, but they sometimes take a plural verb.

    https://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/Collective-Nouns-and-Verb-Agreement

    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/collective-nouns/

    #872478
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    #872479
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Yes YHVH who is our one creator, who is both God and Lord, Father and Son, are my Father and my Brother.

    Now leave out the middle part and say these words out loud to yourself… Yes YHVH are my Father and my Brother.  I can picture you doing that right now, and your pride overcoming your logic and convincing you that it’s perfectly normal to say Jehovah ARE both my Father and my BROTHER.

    Now do it the way I asked.  State for the record…  “My ONE Creator ARE both my Father and my brother.”

    And then go tell everyone you know that you are God’s sister.

    And then teach your grandchildren this prayer:  “God ARE great.  God ARE good.  Let us thank THEM for our food.  We thank our heavenly BROTHER for this food we are about to eat, and praise our Creator, for THEY are faithful to all of the brothers and sisters THEY created for HIMSELF.

    And then go and find such language in any scripture.  For example, “I love the LORD my God, because THEY are my Father and Brother.”  Or, “Fear the LORD thy Creator, because THEY are powerful.”  

    Please let us know what you find.

    LU: What is abundantly clear is that the “believers” in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the anointed one spoken about in Psalms 2 and that Jesus, the anointed one belongs to YHVH.

    Yes, Jesus is a possession of YHWH – as are we all.  And yes, Jesus is one of the many messiahs his and our God has anointed throughout scriptures.  But that doesn’t address my point about the prayer in Acts 4, and you know it.  Why are you afraid to address it directly and honestly?

    Kathi, according to the very words the Apostles used in their prayer to our Creator in Acts 4, is Jesus the Creator to whom they prayed, or the holy servant OF the Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?

    Which one?

    #872480
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

    Agreed.  But remember that the Son OF God cannot possibly BE the very God he is the Son OF.

    Berean: HE HAS THE SAME NATURE OF HIS FATHER (HEBREWS 1)

    Agreed.  Jesus has the same spirit nature as God – and all of God’s other spirit sons.  We are also sons of God, but we do not yet share God’s spirit nature that His spirit sons already share.

    Berean:  THE FATHER IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE) AND PERSONALITY. THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE)
    BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.
    AMEN?

    I agree that Jesus is not the person of God.  Jesus is a god (like Michael, Satan, Gabriel, Dagon, etc), but not the Most High God of all those other gods.  All of the gods that the God created have the nature of gods, because that is the nature the God gave to them.  But none of them, including Jesus, ARE the God who created them.

    So no, Jesus is not “God in infinity” nor “God in nature”.  Jesus is a different god than the God who created him as the first of His works.  Jesus is the Son, servant, prophet, sacrificial lamb, anointed one, spokesman and everlasting priest OF the God.  And therefore Jesus cannot possibly be the God he is all those things of.

    Berean, according to the entirety of scripture, Jesus is someone other than God.

    #872481
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  It is not poetry. The term is “collective singular,” or “collective singular.”

    These are examples of collective nouns…

     

     

    She comes from a decent family; she is the youngest of six kids.
    The pop group will go on world tour next month.
    Our cricket team has star players who can win the world cup.
    The committee has enjoyed donuts with the tea.
    The Audience was happy with the stage performance.

    These are normal everyday words that ALWAYS refer to a group of people or things.  But call it whatever you want… my points are still valid and need to be addressed if you have any hope of anyone taking you seriously about your claim that poetic language is some kind of proof that our ONE Creator ARE more than one person.

     

     

    #872482
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    It has been amazing to have watched you for over a decade building an entire quite bizarre Biblical doctrine from a single verse here and a single verse there –  each being very generously interpreted to show favor to your cause of course.

    That being said, where does it say it was the Father?  Hebrews 1 only mentions “God”, right?  And to you, “God” is both the Father and the Son, right?  So in your interpretation, where verse 10 is something “God” said about Jesus, how do you know it wasn’t the Jesus part of “God/YHVH Binity” who said those words about himself?  Just curious.

     

    #872483
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike: Well, it’s good to know that you have now come to understand that Immanuel means “God IS with us”, and is not an indication that Jesus was God on earth – as you used to argue when you posted here as jammin.

    Hello Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. In fact the name Emmanuel (supposed to be given to Jesus) never appeared in the NT other than Matthew who invented it by misinterpreting the Hebrew scriptures.

    I am dead against that Jesus the man being called as God if I am not mistaken here. Your NT writers created him as more than human, a spirit being as you often call him or even as God outspoken by the Fourth Gospel’s writer. He is equal to God and the life-giver….much more.

    Regarding your questions on Jesus’ Messiahship please come to the appropriate thread if you are so keen on the subject of Messiah.

    But I request you first convince the Trinitarians and Non-trinitarians on your new ideas and come to me on the arguments on Messiah.

    Thanks and peace to you….Adam

    #872486
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    You

    So no, Jesus is not “God in infinity” nor “God in nature”.   

    Me

    SO YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT HE WAS REALLY BORN, BEGOTTEN, OF THE SAME BEING OF GOD THE FATHER, AS WE ARE THE SAME HUMAN SUBSTANCE AS OUR FATHER AND MOTHER …

     

    SO HOW DO YOU SEE HEBREWS 1?
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    #872487
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Again, The One BEGOTTEN Son of God is NOT THE MIGHTY GOD IN PERSON, BUT HE IS THE EVEN SUBSTANCE OF THE MIGHTY GOD. THIS IS WHY JOHN WRITTEN:
    AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”.

    #872488
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Do you see the great deep of waters under the earth? Do you see the foundations of the earth?

    Oh yeah, I see it.

    What is below that? Or does the water go forever and ever and ever?

    Where are the waters below the firmament?  Where are the waters above it?  Heck, where is the firmament, in which God placed the sun, moon, and other lights and set them on appointed circuits over the earth so we could determine times and seasons?  Where are the windows of heaven that God opened in Noah’s day to let the flood waters in from above?

    Wouldn’t it be the sea that is below the firmament. And the waters above is the sky above us. Is there not water in the atmosphere. When you look into the clouds or the atmosphere, it eventually thins out till you reach outer space. There is water there too on some astronomical bodies like planets, moons, asteroids. Water is abundant in space. It is thought that hydrogen was created in the Big Bang and oxygen is released from dying stars.

    #872489
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    I see. So you take a certain view point among others and this nullifies all the clear verses in scripture that say that God created the cosmos through the Son.

    You can’t create something yourself and also be the agent by which you create THROUGH.

    Which is it. Is he the creator or did the creator make all things through him.

    I know which view you hold. But there are a number of scriptures that say God created through him. And notice the first scripture says God and then speaks of his Son.

    Hebrews 1:1-6
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Think about that word. ‘Through’ does not mean ‘source’.  For example. No man comes to the Father except through the Son. This doesn’t mean that the Son is the Father.

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Why bother saying that God created the cosmos through the Son if the Son is the creator. Instead, you would just say that Jesus created the cosmos. Or the Father and the Son created the cosmos together. When it says that God created all things through him, it means it.

    Your whole argument here relies on one interpreation of one verse and ignores the scores of other clear verses.

    You ignore the log and focus on the speck.

    You are hanging off a cliff by one finger regarding this and you want us to think you are secure and safe when in reality you are not secure at all on this teaching.

    #872490
    Berean
    Participant

    The Son has the same name as the FATHER

    read PSALM 24

    The first part of the psalm (v. 1 to 2) shows us the supremacy of God, creator and owner of our earth.

    Verses 3 to 6 describe the conditions for those who want to one day live in the presence of God on his holy hill and place.

    Verses 7-10
    show the pre-entry of Christ as KING of glory (our forerunner) into the Heavenly Holy City.

     

    Just verse 10

    Darby’s English Translation

    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. 

    Hebrew Transliterated2

    4:10

    MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD

    • YHVH 

    TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

     

     

     

    #872491
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  SO YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT HE WAS REALLY BORN, BEGOTTEN, OF THE SAME BEING OF GOD THE FATHER, AS WE ARE THE SAME HUMAN SUBSTANCE AS OUR FATHER AND MOTHER …

    No.  I don’t believe God has both sperm and egg and fertilized Himself to beget Jesus.  Nor do I think God broke off a piece of Himself and placed it in a different pot like we can do with plants.  God brought forth Jesus into existence through creation – as is made clear in these verses…

    Col 1:15…  the firstborn of every creature

    Rev 3:14…  I am the beginning of the creation by God…

    Prov 8:22…  YHWH created me as the first of His works – even before He created the earth…

    And although Jesus is a created spirit being just like God’s other spirit sons, Jesus was the FIRST, and has the rights of the firstborn.  Also, all those who followed were created by God through Jesus – so in that sense Jesus can be set aside as greater than them, and be poetically called God’s “only-begotten Son” – even though God didn’t literally procreate and beget/give birth to Jesus, and even though God’s other spirit creations are also considered His sons (despite God creating them as opposed to literally giving birth to them).  This is also how Jesus himself explains it…

    John 10:34-36…  Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods…then what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

    All of the angels are God’s sons – but Jesus is the only one created by and FOR the Father Himself. In that way, Jesus is the only one who is “set apart as His very own”. All other creations (according to Col 1:16) were also created by God… but through and for God’s firstborn Son.  So in that sense, those other things are not set apart as God’s very own – but belong to both God and Jesus – since God created those things FOR Jesus.

    So Berean, our children share our flesh and blood nature – but that doesn’t make our sons identical to us.  Likewise, all of God’s heavenly sons share His spirit nature – but that doesn’t make any of them identical to God.

    When our children are born, we know much more than them, and are much more powerful than them.  As time goes by, humans become weaker and more forgetful – so there is a point when our children can know more and be more powerful than us.  Not so with God.  God doesn’t weaken or get more forgetful with age.  He was stronger and smarter when He brought His sons into existence, and remains smarter and stronger throughout the ages.  That is why Jesus himself tells us that his Father is greater than he is, and knows more than he does.

    #872492
    Berean
    Participant

    THE SON OF GOD HAS IN HIMSELF THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.

    HE DO ALL THINGS IN HARMONY WITH HIS FATHER.

     

    #872493
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Again, The One BEGOTTEN Son of God is NOT THE MIGHTY GOD IN PERSON, BUT HE IS THE EVEN SUBSTANCE OF THE MIGHTY GOD. THIS IS WHY JOHN WRITTEN:
    AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”.

    If by “substance” you mean spirit – then yeah, Jesus is made of spirit substance just like his Father, and his Father’s many other spirit sons.  Likewise our children consist of the same flesh and blood substance that we consist of.

    And what John actually wrote was that the logos was a god who was with THE god in the beginning.  Understand?  John wrote about two different gods – one of whom was WITH the other.  But John only called one of them THE god.

    You are correct that the logos was not THE god in person.  And if not THE god in person, then he has no choice but to be a DIFFERENT god who was with THE god.  And that is what John told us.  In fact, John said a few verses later…

    John 1:18…  No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten god, who is in the intimate presence of the Father, he has explained Him.

    See?  There is the one and only Most High God of gods.  Then there are a bunch of the Most High God’s spirit sons, who are also gods in every sense of the word.  Among that bunch of other gods is Jesus, but Jesus is very special because he was the first of those gods to ever be brought forth into existence, and all of the gods who came after him were actually created through and for him.

    Berean, this is exactly what the Bible teaches, and what John was telling us.

    #872494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  THE SON OF GOD HAS IN HIMSELF THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.

    God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our God grants him.  His and our God could absolutely grant Jesus the power to do anything He could do… but Jesus’ God hasn’t granted him that much power.  A very lot of power to be sure, but not that much.

    Jesus even tells us, “the Son can do nothing by himself”, right? (John 5:19)

     

    #872495
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:  Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus?  Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?

    YOU: Carmel: Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE…

    ME: YOU NEVER ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION BEFORE and  I NEVER ANSWERED IT, Mike.

    WHAT IS THE REASON THEN THAT YOU MADE IT LOOK LIKE I ANSWERED IT BY

    PUTTING MY ANSWER FROM MY LAST POST?

    WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABOVE QUESTION YOU ASKED NOW.

    YOU: Carmel, please just answer the two questions above this time.  Thanks

    NO Mike, not so quick unless we make sure about certain fundamentals.

    THUS, TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY READ AGAIN WHAT YOU ASKED IN THE POST BEFORE THIS ONE:

     

    YOU: God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    ME: Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE:

     

    OK, Mike, there is a HUGE difference between,

    GOD  CAN DO SIMILAR MIRACLES THROUGH ANY ONE OF US,  from 

    GOD DID MIRACLES BY JESUS AND THROUGH OTHERS SCRIPTURALLY.

    NOW, BETWEEN THE PROCESS OF THE OT. AND THE PROCESS OF NT. 

    JESUS TRANSFORMED ALL GOD’S TASKS ON EARTH, PRECISELY

    FROM CARNAL UNDER MOSES LAW TO SPIRITUAL UNDER

    JESUS’ SPIRITUAL LAW, THE FACT THAT

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON EARTH WAS EMBODIED  IN JESUS HIS OWN SUBSTANCE 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH AS A HUMAN, 

    OK, Mike,

    JESUS SERVED THE FATHER  BY BEING HIS UNIQUE CARRIER, HIS UNIQUE ABODE! 

    THE TRIUNE GOD IN FLESH.

    GOD DID LOADS OF MIRACLES IN THE OT. THROUGH HIS SERVANTS WITHOUT BEING AT ALL DIRECTLY IN THEM; SIMPLY, AS HE WAS PRECISELY INDIRECTLY IN THEM BY HIS OWN SPOKEN “WORD” JESUS, THE ABODE OF GOD, AS A SPIRIT, THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES

    ON HIS WAY TO BECOME HUMAN. 

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    THUS  CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE,

    CAN YOU SEE THAT THE WAY GOD DID MIRACLES

    BY JESUS, IN JESUS, AND FOR JESUS

    WAS A HELL OF A LOT OF  DIFFERENCE Mike! READ:

    John15:22If I had not come,

    and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

    23He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.

    ATTENTION Mike:

    24If I had not done among them

    the works that no other man hath done,

    they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated

    both me and my Father. 25But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law:

    They hated me without cause.

    WHAT A DIFFERENCE Mike BETWEEN

    GOD ‘S WORK BY JESUS, WHO SERVED THE FATHER AS HIS UNIQUE EMBODIMENT,

    AND GOD’S WORK BY JESUS “THE WORD” AS A SPIRIT, SIMPLY THROUGH OTHER SERVANTS ONLY IN/BY THEIR WORK!

    GOD IN THE OT. AS MENTIONED FURTHER UP, WAS NOT EVEN EMBODIED IN ANY OF HIS SERVANTS AS THEY WERE NOT OF HEAVEN BUT

    OF SATANIC EARTH. 

    On the other hand, GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IN JESUS WAS

    ONE WITH HIS OWN SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3,

    WITH HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FROM CONCEPTION OF THE HOLY GHOST

    ALL FROM HEAVEN, AND

    NOTHING OF SATANIC EARTH!

    OTHERWISE, GOD WOULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO SATAN. THIS IS ASSERTED BY JESUS IN

    John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you.

    For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in ME, he hath not anything.

    WHAT A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD’S WORK IN/BY JESUS AND

    GOD’S WORK THROUGH OTHERS SCRIPTURALLY!

    Mike please respect GOD’S WORK and don’t put

    GOD DIRECTLY IN JESUS IN THE SAME BASKET AS

    GOD DIRECTLY IN JESUS, “THE WORD” IN ALL OTHER HUMANS.

    NEVER MIND GOD CAN DO GREATER MIRACLES THROUGH ANYONE OF US, AGAIN:

    UNLESS YOU ACCEPT THAT

    IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ONLY

    GODMAN JESUS

    CAN DO GREATER MIRACLES THROUGH ANY ONE OF US

    HUMANS ON EARTH!

    KEEP IN MIND Mike, THAT GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIS 

    LONGEST REST!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

Viewing 20 posts - 22,721 through 22,740 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account