John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #872231
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Sorry no such expectation of Virgin born Messiah by the Hebrews please.

    Proclaimer: Young girl.

    Isaiah 7:14… Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

    So let us think logically.

    1.  In what way would an ordinary woman giving an ordinary birth be considered any kind of a sign from God – since that sort of thing happens thousands of times a day?
    2.  The LXX, written 150 years before Jesus was born on earth, translates the Hebrew word from 7:14 (which can refer to a young woman in general, or specifically to a virgin) with a Greek word that explicitly means virgin.  How did these 70 Hebrew scholars know to translate it as “virgin” instead of “young woman”?  Probably a combination of divine intervention and point #1 above (it wouldn’t be any special sign for a young girl to have a baby).
    3.   Matthew makes it clear that “virgin” was intended, even including Mary’s own astonishment that she, a virgin, could conceive without having sex.

    So the end result is that it was only a fulfillment of that particular prophecy from YHWH because the one who bore Jesus was a virgin.

    It would be interesting to find an OT scripture in which that same term was used for a married woman – or one who was no longer a virgin.  I suspect it might be similar to our English custom where once a female has sex, it is often said that she is no longer a girl, but has become a woman.

    So my question to Adam:  In what way would YHWH’s prophecy any kind of a sign if it only required a regular woman to bear a regular son in the regular manner?

    #872232
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: please show how “God spoke ” any differently, through the prophets, then he Spoke “through” the man Jesus?  A Son.  

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, Gene, 

    SCRIPTURES PLEASE, NOT YOUR OWN CORRUPTED VERSION. Read

     

    Hebrews 1:1God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners,

    spoke in times past to the fathers

    BY THE PROPHETS,last of all, 

    Gene, NOT THROUGH THE PROPHETS, as you said.

    2In these days hath spoken to us

    BY HIS SON,

    Gene, NOT  THROUGH A SON, 

    Now carry on reading, and be aware of THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND ALL THE PROPHETS:

    whom he hath appointed heir of all things,

    BY WHOM also he made the world. 

    OK Gene?  BY “THE WORD”  OF GOD, A SPIRIT MADE FLESH, AND PRECISELY, 

    GOD SPOKE DIFFERENTLY IN EVERY SENSE!  WELL CLEAR HEREUNDER:

    Matthew 23:35 Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:

    and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:

    ISN’T JESUS DIFFERENT FROM ALL THE PROPHETS WHO PRECEDED HIM, BY HIS DECLARATION ABOVE?

    WHO WAS IN THE POSITION TO DECLARE THE ABOVE Gene, OF ALL THE PROPHETS?

    JESUS BY USING THE SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE CONFIRMED BOTH OF HIS PRE-EXISTENCE WHEN HE HIMSELF “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD AS A SPIRIT EMBODIED IN ALL THE PROPHETS, SPOKE GOD’S WORD, AND ALSO OF HIS PREDICTIONS WHEN AFTER HIS DEATH AND GLORIFICATION THEY WILL ALSO KILL HIS FOLLOWERS.

    Now read and discern the difference GOD SPOKE BY

    JESUS HIS SON:

    35That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth,

    from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

    36Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

    GOT IT Gene? NO YOU DON’T  and you will never GET THE TRUTH, WITH YOUR CARNAL MINDED REASONING, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    JESUS SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR TO THEM, THAT SINCE THEIR PLEASURE, SATAN’S,  THE MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, WAS THE KILLING OF THE PROPHETS AND SO ON, NOW IS THE TIME TO JUSTIFY PRECISELY THE TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE, PRECISELY BY

    KILLING THE ONLY ONE UNIQUE PROPHET

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS! WHY UNIQUE PROPHET Gene? READ WHY:

    Luke 13:31 The same day, there came some of the Pharisees, saying to him: Depart, and get thee hence, for Herod hath a mind to kill thee.

     32And he said to them:

    Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow,

    and the third day I am consummated.

    OK Gene, CAN YOU SEE HOW GOD SPOKE DIFFERENT BY JESUS? NO, YOU DON’T I’AFRAID.

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED, THAT WITHIN THREE DAYS HE WOULD BE MORE THAN PLEASED TO BE KILLED, SIMPLY AS 

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK, Gene,

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK!

    THUS JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT MADE FLESH, WHO IS LIFE ETERNAL,  ONCE JESUS WOULD HAVE SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY, A TASK WHICH COULD NOT EVER BE ACHIEVED ON EARTH AT LEAST UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME,  

    DEATH WAS THE MOST APPROPRIATE AND JUSTIFIED TASK  FOR JESUS, 

    IN ORDER TO GLORIFY AND

    GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE PROPHETS KILLED  PRECEDED HIM.  

    Now reflect on the remaining statement by Jesus and discern the TRUTH!

    33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following

    because it cannot be that

    A PROPHET PERISHES,

    (A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIMSELF THE UNIQUE PROPHET) 

    out of Jerusalem. 

    NOW Gene, JERUSALEM IS A REFERENCE TO THE HUMAN FLESH BODY!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS BOTH

    THE BRIDEGROOM AND THE BRIDE,

    THE NEW JERUSALEM! ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,

    SPIRITUAL FLESH! 

    GET THIS INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND Gene, THAT 

    JESUS POSSESSES A UNIQUE GLORIFIED BODY,

    THE NEW JERUSALEM!

    AND IN ONE INSTANT 

    JESUS RIGHT NOW AND FOR ETERNITY IS GLORIFIED 

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, 

    WHICH MEANS THAT WHEN HE WAS PRESENT IN FRONT OF HIS DISCIPLES,

    THOUGH HE WAS VISIBLE AND IN FLESH

    HE WAS ALSO SPIRIT! 

    AND JESUS MAKE USE OF IT AS HE SEEMS FIT,

    FOR HIS OWN GLORY AS HE DIED FOR IT!

    Well asserted in Jesus own words:

    Luke 24:36 Now whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them, and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not.

     37But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 

    OK Gene, obvious, despite they saw Him they still were convinced that Jesus was a spirit.

    Jesus, had to reveal THIS UNIQUE GLORIFICATION FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME OFFICIALLY ON EARTH.

    38And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

     39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 

    THIS IS ALSO PINPOINTED OUT BY JESUS IN

    John 10:9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved:

    and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.

    The above Gene a is a CLEAR REFERENCE TO HUMANS AT THE VERY END IN GOD’S KINGDOM, 

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, AND THEY WOULD ALSO POSSESS 

    A SPIRIT AND FLESH BODY  AND 

    THEY SHALL GO IN AND GO OUT OF THIS

    GLORIFIED BODIES AS THEY FEEL FIT!

    Cont. Luke 13:34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee,

    how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings,

    and thou wouldest not?

    THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR ASSERTION OF JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!

    JESUS SIMPLY DIRECTED THE ABOVE TO LUCIFER PRECISELY A REFERENCE TO HIS REBELLION IN HEAVEN WHEN GOD INFORMED THE HEAVENLY REALMS THAT HE WOULD  ESTABLISH A  DIVINE-HUMAN KINGDOM. THE MAIN REASON THAT LUCIFER REBELLED AS HE WAS NOT READY TO BE SUBJECT TO

    A MAN DESPITE DIVINE!

    35Behold your house shall be left to you desolate.

    IN THE ABOVE THE HOUSE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO SATAN/LUCIFER’S WOMANHOOD ON EARTH TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH ON EVE’S SIN, THE MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING BY WHOM ADAM DIED SPIRITUALLY AND LIVED IN  EVE’S SATANICALLY CONTAMINATED FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE, BY WHICH SUBSTANCE SATAN ALSO OCCUPIED ADAM’S SOUL.

    And I say to you, that you shall not see me till the time come, when you shall say:

    Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

     

     

     

    That is your first challenge, is to show how was there a difference in how God  “spoke” through the other prophets,  making Jesus himself “God’s ” own word “himself and the rest not?”. , and if we assume he was indeed Gods own words, then we should also assume all the other ‘prophets were also’, right?

     

    #872233
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Mike, I believed and still believe you were and are teaching lies on that subject.

    A LIE is the INTENTIONAL act of PURPOSELY telling someone something that you KNOW is UNTRUE for the sole purpose of DECEIVING them.

    Proclaimer: I even spelled out that to teach lies, one must be an intenional liar or deceived. I never said which category. That is between you and God and not for me to judge.

    Well aren’t you just the perfect little non-judgmental Christian for not flat out calling me a liar?  Yet you still proudly include that “intentional liar” option in reference to me every time, don’t you? 😂🤣

    Proclaimer:  Please explain why this summation is wrong?

    I’ve already done that a dozen times – including my first words on this post above – but let me try again.  For you to apply either option (intentional liar OR deceived) to me, you first must KNOW as a matter of FACT that… 1)what I said was inaccurate in the first place and/or… 2)that I knew it was inaccurate and intentionally told it to you for the sole purpose of deceiving you.

    Do you know either of those things?

    If so, please explain to us how you are able to not only KNOW for a FACT, but also PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I say about the shape of the earth is inaccurate.  And while we’re waiting for that revelation from you, I’d like you to answer three questions that might help you to understand what a lie actually is.

    Okay, you are well aware that in Psalm 19, King David explains how the sun runs its circuit from one end of the heaven to the other, right?  And you agree that David believed that the sun moves over the earth, as opposed to the earth moving around the sun, right?

    1.  How are you able to KNOW and PROVE that David was wrong?
    2.  Since you apparently know that he was wrong, did David LIE to us about the sun intentionally – or did he LIE to us because he was deceived?
    3.   If David LIED to us because he was deceived, who was it that deceived him about the sun?
    #872234
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Sorry I think this is another speculation which is not found in the NT.

    How so?  If you read the second to the last post on page 806 like I requested, you’ll see that my argument is sound.  If you want to comment further to me on this particular subject, do so by quoting and rebutting the points I made in the aforementioned post.

    #872235
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….It’s a different body then the one buried,  but just like that seed planted it have every genetic code the PREEXISTING BODY HAD,  so when planted it (replicates the exact same body it came from) not a different “kind” of body.

    You are adding your own speculation to the scriptures, Gene.

    Gene:  “Now if the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead , dwell in you (it or he) that raised  Christ from the “dead’ shall also quicken your  ‘Mortal’   “BODY’ ,  BY THE SAME “SPIRIT”  that dwells in you>  get it Mike, it is the same body made over again…  

    Romans 8:10-11… But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

    As I understand that, Paul is saying that your mortal body is already technically dead, because you are living by spirit now.  But that same spirit will make those dead mortal bodies alive so you can carry out your work here on earth before you die.  This doesn’t have anything to do with resurrection, but the metaphorical idea that since we are supposed to be living by spirit even in this world, our bodies (fleshly desires) are metaphorically dead right now.

    Gene:  By the way Mike I really don’t  think, any of us are trying to mislead or lie deliberately t0 each other here either , think we all are perrty truthful about what we are thinking .  We may not always be right though,  we all have a lot of Growing to do,  “except me” ,  LOL .  

    Except you, huh?  😂🤣  Good one!  But I agree.  You and I have been arguing certain points like cats and dogs for over a decade here – and I have never once thought or said you were lying about your beliefs.  We just interpret certain scriptures differently.  I interpret them correctly, and you interpret them incorrectly. 😎

     

     

     

    #872236
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A LIE is the INTENTIONAL act of PURPOSELY telling someone something that you KNOW is UNTRUE for the sole purpose of DECEIVING them.

    No, a lie is anything that is not true.

    #872238
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  YHVH is the particular name of a theos who is the First and the Last, the King of Israel, the Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Redeemer, the Good Shepherd, the Lord of lords, the Savior, the Giver of everlasting life, and the Forgiver of sins.

    First and last: There are many different “first and lasts”.  For example, Adam was the first and last man to be made directly out of the dust of the earth.

    King of Israel:  There have been many kings of Israel.

    Maker of Heaven and Earth:  Maker is singular, as we only have one Creator.  You have yet to make a choice which one of your Gods is that one Creator.

    Redeemer:  There are many redeemers in scripture – including all those firstborn lambs that were exchanged for the firstborn of the Hebrews.

    Good Shepherd:  I’m not familiar with God ever being called a Good Shepherd.  What verse is that?  But either way, King David was also a good shepherd before God called him to become king of Israel.

    Lord of lords:  There are many lords of other lords in scripture – and many kings of other kings.  There is, however, only one God of gods mentioned.  That one is both our God and Jesus’ God.

    Savior:  God sent many saviors throughout scripture. (Nehemiah 9:27)

    Forgiver of sins:  Jesus also gave authority to his disciples to forgive sins on earth – just as his own God gave him that authority.

     

    #872239
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  No, a lie is anything that is not true.

    You’re wrong.  I await your DIRECT response to my previous post… especially the explanation of how you know and can prove I was wrong in the first place, and the answers to the 3 questions at the end.

    #872240
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Removing all feelings and emotions and looking at the facts only, those who teach lies are either doing it intentionally or are deceived in that area at least. If a person is deceived and then shown proof or even strong evidence to the contrary, the person has a choice, they either change or become more wilfully deceived and more wilfully they teach lies.

    And this is where judgement comes into it. No one here that I know of has made this judgement. But stating the facts and leaving it with the person is fine. In fact that is a really good thing to do. No matter how the person feels, rebuke and correction doesn’t feel good, but it is a form of love as it is about improving or helping a brother back on the path of truth.

    I will always state the facts despite the feeling. As the quote goes, “facts don’t care about your feelings”. And it is good to have this happen because Judgement Day for each one of us will be much more so. Best to get as much sorted now, so there is less to deal with then.

    Remember that Heaven Net is not Disneyland. Never has been and never will be. It doesn’t exist for a good time. The mission is to “Hold firmly to the truth, encourage by sound doctrine, & refute those who oppose it”. And may I remind you of these words from our brother Paul:

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    #872241
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’ll state it like this.

    Do you have a fishing rod? Yes.

    Do you catch fish? Yes

    Are you a fisherman?

    See that. Not all people who catch fish are fishermen.

    Not all who sin are sinners.

    Not all who speak lies are liars.

    At what point do you become a fisherman, sinner, or liar?

    When you practice it.

    I cannot tell you what exactly the threshold is because I do not judge that which has been given to the Son to judge.

    But I am tasked with saying the facts. If that hurts, then ask yourself why it hurts. Pain is good. It is there to remind you that something is wrong and needs attention. If it doesn’t hurt, then it likely doesn’t apply to you. Unless your conscience is seared.

    #872253
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike:

    Upon his ascension to heaven, Gene.  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same flesh body in which he died.  He dwelled on earth in that same body for another 30 days after his resurrection.  Then he ascended to heaven before the eyes of the disciples.  But we know from scripture that flesh can neither inherit nor even enter the kingdom of God – where we agree Jesus dwells now, right?

    So we know 2 things for sure:

    Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
    Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)
    That leaves us with only one option:  Jesus’ flesh body was transformed into his current spirit body upon his ascension from earth to heaven.  Paul talks a lot about this transformation in 1 Cor 15, and in Phil 3:20-21, Paul even says…

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    Jesus shared our type of “lowly body” for the entire 33 years he dwelled on earth – including 30 days after his resurrection.  But he doesn’t still possess this “lowly body” in heaven, Gene.  He now possesses a “glorious new body” – and it was Paul’s eager hope that he too will exchange his “lowly body” for the “glorious body” Jesus now has in heaven.

    Here I have brought out your entire post from page 806 of this thread. I don’t think Paul was talking about two phases of resurrection. If I am correct he only mentioned one resurrection which is of a spiritual body in 1 Cor 15. and there is no mention of second transformation from (physical) body to spiritual after (30) days as claimed by you if it is said crudely. What he was trying to convey is ‘flesh and blood will not inherit the God’s kingdom’ but the natural body has to be decayed or destroyed to give rise to a new spiritual body which is called as glorious body IMO.

    But the Gospel writers certainly were on different plane than that of Paul on this resurrection theory. They wanted to prove that Jesus’ resurrected body was not different from that of his crucified body which was shown to be having crucifixion marks or holes in his hands and feet. Please read the verses I quoted from Fourth Gospel and Luke in my earlier post for inferring the message of resurrection by the Gospel writers.

    Hope I am clear on my statement.

    #872278
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel: YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!

    Sounds like you’re making Gene’s argument for him.

    ME: Yes Mike, “SOUNDS”

    JESUS BECAME GODMAN ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AFTER GOD THE FATHER LEFT HIM! SIMPLY AS GOD THE FATHER GAVE 

    ALLPOWERS TO JESUS AND RIGHT NOW 

    JESUS IS THE SOLE SOVEREIGN OVER THE UNIVERSE. FOR THE PLEASURE OF THE FATHER. THE FATHER IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

    YOU: He said that Jesus didn’t do the miracles, but God did the miracles through Jesus. 

    And you rightly point out that, with enough faith,

    God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    NOT QUITE PRECISE, Mike, I’m afraid. Read again what I said, and you also pointed out:

    Carmel: YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!

    Mike, I never mentioned God do you know why? 

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HUMANS CAN ONLY DO MIRACLES 

    THROUGH THE ONLY 

    TRUE GODMAN ON EARTH! Mike!!!

    THAT’S WHY HUMANS CAN DO MIRACLES BECAUSE ONLY JESUS IS

    BOTH GOD AND MAN!

    JESUS CHRIST

    TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD, GOD KNOWS WHEN!

    Read what I said to Gene, NOW:

    YOU:(GENE)  YOU OR ANYONE CAN HAVE, those Spirits ( cognisities) in you but still not be able to do any miracles, by themselves.

    It’s one thing to have the Spirits (cognitions) it’s quite another to have the power to exercise them.

    God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,

    THAT GOD YOU MENTIONED ABOVE GENE IS JESUS! 

    ME: OK Mike,

    DO YOU AGREE???

    CARRY ON READING WHAT I SAID TO Gene,

    ON EARTH ONLY JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND GOD THE FATHER

    ONLY THROUGH HIM, A HUMAN WORKS AND MAKES MIRACLES!

    Acts3:6 …..In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk.
    YOU: (GENE) remember when Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they receive

    “POWER” FROM ON HIGH.

    ME: THAT POWER Gene belongs to JESUS!

    ME: I HOPE THAT YOU AGREE Mike???  Read a bit more please:

    John16:7But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go:

    for if I go not,

    the Paraclete will not come to you;

    THE  FATHER COULD NOT SEND HIS HOLY SPIRIT,

    NOT BEFORE JESUS MANIFESTS HIS UNIQUE GLORIFICATION IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS DO YOU KNOW HOW Mike:

    VERY SIMPLE

    OFFICIALLY AS THE ONLY HUMAN BEING GOD IN HEAVEN!

    UNOFFICIALLY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but

    he (GODMAN JESUS CHRIST PRE-EXISTED the embodiment of God) that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man WHO IS in heaven. 

     

    Cont. John16:7…….but if I go,

    I will send him to you.

    JESUS IS RULING NOT THE FATHER! FOR GOD’S SAKE!!!

    12I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself; (OF GOD THE FATHER! THE FATHER DID NOT DIE ON EARTH, NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER ON EARTH;

    ONLY IN JESUS HUMANS CAN HAVE A FATHER) John John14:9, John15:5, John 20:17, 

    but what things soever he shall hear, ( RELATED TO JESUS) he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. 

    14He shall glorify me;

    THE ONLY TRUE GODMAN ON EARTH! 

    HE DIED FOR THE TITLE!

    NOT GOD THE FATHER

    because he shall receive of MINE (POWER) and shall show it to you. (THROUGH MIRACLES)

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.
    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of MINE, and show it to you.

    through miracles

    Mike, it seems to me that you never read all of the post so READ WHAT I SAID TO Gene at the end of the post.

    Gene, have faith IN JESUS as a grain of a mustard seed,

    WHO IS IN YOU THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, ASK JESUS

    ANYTHING AND JESUS HEARS YOU AS HE CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    John14:14……that I will do.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #872279
    gadam123
    Participant

    So my question to Adam:  In what way would YHWH’s prophecy any kind of a sign if it only required a regular woman to bear a regular son in the regular manner?

    We can discuss this Virgin Birth on its main thread. I will post the reply to your query there.

    #872353
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hey Guys please hear me out,

    I will answer your posts/questions to me after my break.
    I need to study some more.
    But one thing is clear:
    Yahweh is the Most High God
    and Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son.
    Never forget that because there is a freemasonic conspiracy going on.
    These wicked freemasons are attacking either the Father or the Son.
    That’s all they can do. But their day of judgment is coming.
    They can’t defeat God. There is no escape. And Hell is eternal!
    Because there are no degrees of annihilation, but Scripture reveals there will be degrees
    of suffering among the lost in hell (see Matthew 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke
    12:47,48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12). The fact
    that people will suffer varying degrees of punishment shows that annihilation
    or the extinction of consciousness is unbiblical.
    Please call out to Jesus and to His Father for salvation.
    Because your eternal destination is at stake.

    God bless you all,

    Danny

    #872354
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Danny.

    This seems off topic, but I’ll point you to this page as it addresses one of your points.

    Is Hell eternal?

    #872368
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  …those who teach lies are either doing it intentionally or are deceived in that area at least.

    King David said the sun moves over the surface of the earth.  According to you he was lying, and is therefore a liar.  I’m asking again if David was lying intentionally, or lying because he was deceived.

    And if the latter, who deceived him?  And finally, how do you know what he said about the sun is a lie in the first place?

    Also – just to make sure you’re putting your money where your mouth is on this subject, please come right out and say for the record that King David was a liar.

    If you cannot answer these questions or make that statement, then you are a hypocrite who shouldn’t be taken seriously… at least on this subject.

    #872369
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: I do not judge that which has been given to the Son to judge.

    Yet you’ve judged me, and King David, as liars.  Hmm… 🙄

    #872370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Paul… only mentioned one resurrection which is of a spiritual body in 1 Cor 15. and there is no mention of second transformation from (physical) body to spiritual after (30) days as claimed by you…

    Elijah resurrected one, Elisha resurrected two, Jesus resurrected three, Peter one, and Paul one.  All of these were resurrected to life in their original body… as was Jesus.  So I gave Gene two points that you quoted.  Please directly address those two points…

     

     

    1.  Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
    2. Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)

    Are both of these things true – according to scripture, Adam?  Yes or No?

    And if so, that leaves us with only one option as I see it:  Jesus’ flesh body was transformed into his current spirit body upon his ascension from earth to heaven.

    We aren’t explicitly told in scripture that this happened, but it fits with the above teachings, and the fact that Paul was eagerly awaiting his body to be transformed into a glorious body like Jesus now has in heaven.  It also fits with the transfiguration – which I believe was a sneak peak of how Jesus looks now in that glorious new body.

    Can you think of another option?  I’m all ears.

    Anyway, nobody else who will be resurrected has a job to finish on earth.  Jesus did.  He had 30 more days of work to do for his God – and some of that work required the flesh body in which he died.  All the other dead will have no need to be raised first in their flesh bodies.  So Jesus is the exception.

     

     

     

     

    #872371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Jesus didn’t do the miracles, but God did the miracles through Jesus. God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    Carmel:  NOT QUITE PRECISE, Mike, I’m afraid. 

    Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus?  Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?

    So what I say is quite precise indeed… according to the scriptures.  And God can do even greater miracles through any one of us.

    #872372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  In what way would YHWH’s prophecy be any kind of a sign if it only required a regular woman to bear a regular son in the regular manner?

    Adam:  We can discuss this Virgin Birth on its main thread. I will post the reply to your query there.

    I don’t need to follow a different thread (that is most likely filled with cut and pastes from other people) just to get a simple answer to a simple point.  The point is simple.  If God said to you…

    Adam, I am going to resurrect you to one of the highest princes in heaven, and here is my sign so you know you can trust me… a woman will one day give birth to a son.

    … wouldn’t you wonder a little bit about the validity of God’s sign – seeing it is an occurrence that happens thousands of times every single day?

    God’s sign was that a VIRGIN would give birth.  And a virgin did give birth.  That’s what made Jesus’ birth a fulfillment of prophecy.

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