John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,681 through 22,700 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #872373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  I will answer your posts/questions to me after my break.
    I need to study some more.

    👍

    #872374
    gadam123
    Participant

    Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
    Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)
    Are both of these things true – according to scripture, Adam?  Yes or No?

    Hi Mike, you can quote any number of verses to support your strange logics which is often being done by you on this Forum.  The writer of John’s Gospel differs from your logics of spiritual body as per John 20:

     A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.”

    The resurrected Jesus was able to enter closed doors and at the same time was having the same body with crucifixion marks as per this water. Whereas Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh and blood as it will be decayed or destroyed before resurrection.

    Sorry I can’t agree with your news ideas on most of the topics here. There ends our arguments on this resurrection.

    #872375
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam, I am going to resurrect you to one of the highest princes in heaven, and here is my sign so you know you can trust me… a woman will one day give birth to a son.

    … wouldn’t you wonder a little bit about the validity of God’s sign – seeing it is an occurrence that happens thousands of times every single day?

    God’s sign was that a VIRGIN would give birth.  And a virgin did give birth.  That’s what made Jesus’ birth a fulfillment of prophecy.

    I had already replied number of times on the so called myth of Virgin birth of Jesus on this Forum. Please check the appropriate thread as we had already deviated much on this thread. The sign for king Ahaz was not the young woman who was already with child but the child. “Before the child knows enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken”.  Please check proper Hebrew Bible commentary on Isaiah 7 & 8 chap for better understanding.

    There ends the matter..

    #872376
    gadam123
    Participant

    The resurrected Jesus was able to enter closed doors and at the same time was having the same body with crucifixion marks as per this water. Whereas Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh and blood as it will be decayed or destroyed before resurrection.

    Sorry please read the “writer” in the highlighted place.

    #872379
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I remember years ago a teacher saying it was a young girl that would concieve, but that due to the age, you would assume she would be a virgin. Of course it depends on how the culture understood it. Sounds like they understood it that way. If not, then so what. A young girl will conceive. Happened before and will happen again.

    And I can’t be bothered looking the word up and its usage.

    But I bet the meaning is virgin.

     

    #872382
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:   Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh

    You just destroyed your own argument.  The resurrection body will NOT BE FLESH.  Why?  Because FLESH can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God.

    Exhibit A:  After his resurrection, Jesus said he DID have FLESH.

    Exhibit B:  FLESH can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God.

    Exhibit C:  Jesus dwells in the kingdom of God right now in a glorious NEW body.

    Conclusion:  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact FLESH body in which he died, but can no longer have that FLESH body because FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of God… hence his new glorious body.

    Adam:  …you can quote any number of verses to support your strange logics which is often being done by you on this Forum.

    Strange logics?  Refute them scripturally then.  If they are so strange, it should be easy to do, right?

     

     

    #872385
    gadam123
    Participant

    Conclusion:  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact FLESH body in which he died, but can no longer have that FLESH body because FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of God… hence his new glorious body.

    So you chose to ignore the contradiction between Paul and Gospel writers (John and Luke)?

    #872386
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  “Before the child knows enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken”.

    So then the sign is that someday, a normal woman will give birth to a normal child in the normal fashion, and within, let’s say 10 years of that birth, some unspecified “land” on the earth will be somehow “forsaken”?

    That could apply to anyone!  Look at America now.  Or Australia.  Or just about any “land” on the earth right now.  An argument could be made that all of these lands are currently being forsaken – which means ANY child born within the last ten years could be your coming messiah, right?

    Adam:  I had already replied number of times on the so called myth of Virgin birth of Jesus on this Forum. Please check the appropriate thread as we had already deviated much on this thread.

    I have little interest in most of what you post in the first place, and no interest in tracking your comments down in a bunch of different threads.  I have limited time to be on HN, and so one thread is my limit. If you don’t want to talk about it here, then don’t comment on it here.

    Adam:  Please check proper Hebrew Bible commentary on Isaiah 7 & 8 chap for better understanding.

    You mean like this, from Barnes…

    A virgin – This word properly means a girl, maiden, virgin, a young woman who is unmarried, and who is of marriageable age… The etymology of the word requires us to suppose that it means one who is growing up to a marriageable state, or to the age of puberty. The word maiden, or virgin, expresses the correct idea. 

    The word, in the view of the Septuagint translators, therefore conveyed the proper idea of a virgin. The Chaldee uses substantially the same word as the Hebrew. The idea of a “virgin” is, therefore, the most obvious and natural idea in the use of this word.

    The word refers to a young girl who is of marriageable state – the age of puberty.  These girls were ALL assumed to be virgins – because the ancient Israelites didn’t live in the age we do now, where elementary school children are taught how to masturbate, and having sex as a 12 year old is pushed as normal and enlightened behavior.  In fact, it’s not so long ago that we still used the phrase “sweet 16 and never been kissed” in America – because the well accepted and general assumption was that 16 year old girls (approaching marriageable/puberty age) were chaste, and were VIRGINS.

    The fact that the word refers to a young UNMARRIED woman means that it also refers to a VIRGIN.

    Or maybe you prefer the words of Hebrew scholar Matthew Poole, who directly addresses YOUR eagerness to have the word NOT mean virgin…

    A virgin; strictly and properly so called. The Jews, that they may obscure this plain text, and weaken this proof of the truth of Christian religion, pretend that this Hebrew word signifies a young woman, and not a virgin. But this corrupt translation is easily confuted,

    1. Because this word constantly signifies a virgin in all other places of Scripture where it is used…

    2. From the scope of this place, which is to confirm their faith by a strange and prodigious sign, which surely could not be not a young woman should conceive a child, but that a virgin should conceive, and bear a son.

    That last part is just basic common sense – which is why I made that argument before ever reading any commentaries on it.  The bottom line is that it would not have been ANY KIND OF sign for a regular woman to give birth to a regular child in the regular manner.  To suggest anything different is a weak attempt to “obscure this plain text, and weaken this proof of the truth of Christian religion” – as Poole aptly points out above.

    Adam:  There ends the matter..

    Agreed.  The matter is resolved in that it wouldn’t be any kind of a sign unless the word was understood as referring to a “virgin” – which it clearly and obviously did. (See LXX)

    #872387
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  So you chose to ignore the contradiction between Paul and Gospel writers (John and Luke)?

    You’ve shown no contradiction.  You continually spout off about supposed contradictions in the NT, but you don’t ever actually show any.  Yes, Jesus was resurrected in flesh like John says.  Yes, Jesus must now be spirit in heaven, like Jesus himself says (also in John 3).  Where is the contradiction?

    #872388
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  But I bet the meaning is virgin.

    You would win that bet.

    Now please tell us about that liar King David.  Did he lie about the sun intentionally?  Or was he lying about the sun because he was deceived?  Who deceived him?  And how do you know he was lying about the sun in the first place?  Who told YOU the truth about the sun, thereby proving that King David was a liar?

    Come on, now… enquiring minds want to know the answers to these questions.  People who stand for truth and call out inaccuracies on this forum demand that you stand and defend your pompous and condescending lectures about how YOU are the peacemaking truth warrior around here – calling out all liars you come across.

    Stand and defend your previous claims.  You have called me and King David LIARS.  Either stand and defend those actions – or admit that it was YOU who was wrong this entire time… and then apologize to me and King David profusely.

    It was YOU, not me, who brought this subject back to the front and center, even doubling down on your condescending remarks about my character.  Now YOU need to stand and defend yourself.

    WAS KING DAVID LYING ABOUT THE SUN, Proclaimer?  YES or NO?

     

    #872389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Lightenup

    Why did you run away, Kathi?  There are questions pending (I may have just answered my own question).

    Who is our ONE Creator?

    Who is our ONE Creator according to the Apostles who prayed in Acts 4?  (Obviously I refer to the words of their prayer as recorded by Luke, and not to your own supposition regarding what they “understood/meant”.)

    Is heaven ABOVE you (as in “over your head”, “up in the sky”, “you must look UP away from the ground to see it”)?

    Is heaven also, at the same time, ABOVE Proclaimer in NZ?

     

    #872391
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    YHVH is our ONE creator and YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son.

    Regarding heaven, yes heaven is above both parts of the world all at the same time.

    Any other easy questions that I can help you with?

    #872392
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Ephesians 3

    [8]Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    #872394
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE:

    Mark 6:4 And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred.

    5And he could not do any miracles there,

    only that he cured a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.

    6And he wondered because of their unbelief,

    and he went through the villages round about teaching.

    CAN YOU SEE IT MIKE?

    Read more scriptures:

    Mark 10:51And Jesus answering, said to him:

    What wilt thou that I should do to thee?

    And the blind man said to him: Rabboni, that I may see.

    52And Jesus saith to him:

    Go thy way, thy faith hath made thee whole.

    And immediately he saw, and followed him in the way.

    Luke 1:45 And blessed art thou that hast believed,

    because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

    Matthew 9:28 And when he was come to the house,

    the blind men came to him. And Jesus saith to them,

    Do you believe, that I can do this unto you?

    They say to him, Yea, Lord. 29Then he touched their eyes, saying,

    According to your faith, be it done unto you. 

    Luke 8:43And there was a certain woman having an issue of blood twelve years, who had bestowed all her substance on physicians, and could not be healed by any. 

    44She came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment; and immediately the issue of her blood stopped. 

    45And Jesus said: Who is it that touched me? And all denying, Peter and they that were with him said: Master, the multitudes throng and press thee, and dost thou say, Who touched me? 46And Jesus said: Somebody hath touched me; for I know that virtue is gone out from me.47And the woman seeing that she was not hidden, came trembling, and fell down before his feet, and declared before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was immediately healed. 48But he said to her:

    Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go thy way in peace.

    49As he was yet speaking, there cometh one to the ruler of the synagogue, saying to him: Thy daughter is dead, trouble him not. 50And Jesus hearing this word answered the father of the maid:

    Fear not; believe only, and she shall be safe. 

    Luke 7:6And Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent his friends to him, saying: Lord, trouble not thyself; for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof. 7For which cause neither did I think myself worthy to come to thee;

    but say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 

    8For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers: and I say to one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doth it. 

    9Which Jesus hearing, marvelled: and turning about to the multitude that followed him, he said:

    Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith, not even in Israel. 

    Mike I made my point

    I BELIEVE!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872395
    gadam123
    Participant

    So then the sign is that someday, a normal woman will give birth to a normal child in the normal fashion, and within, let’s say 10 years of that birth, some unspecified “land” on the earth will be somehow “forsaken”?

    It’s not some unspecified “Land” Mike please read carefully the texts and infer. Please don’t  be like the writer of Matthew ;

    When Matthew says that the Holy Family taking refuge in Egypt was the fulfillment of Hosea 1:1, “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” quoted in Matthew 2:15, he knew darn well that this was not what the prophet Hosea had in mind. No, as any fool can see, Hosea chapter 11 is all about the Exodus of Israel, God’s beloved child, and how the people have been disobedient ever since that time. Nothing about any Messiah. Certainly nothing about Jesus Christ. Likewise, Matthew knew as well as modern scholars do that Isaiah 7:14, quoted in Matthew 1:23, is talking about the birth of a child, likely Isaiah’s own son, whose name would remind the wavering people that “God is with us” and will defeat our pagan adversaries. And so he had. But had God nothing else to say through this sacred text? Sure he did, and Matthew saw in the passage an esoteric prediction of Jesus’ conception.

    #872396
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yet you’ve judged me, and King David, as liars. Hmm… 🙄

    Not true.

    If I state the facts and someone is on the wrong end of the facts, then I haven’t judged the person. I have only stated truth and truth does show some people up. It’s up to you to judge yourself. I don’t want to be your judge. And I will continue to state truth and facts. Regardless of how anyone feels. Facts don’t care about feelings. It might seem harsh, but one cannot hide truth just because of someone’s feelings.

    #872399
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    YHVH is our ONE creator and YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son.

    Regarding heaven, yes heaven is above both parts of the world all at the same time.

    Any other easy questions that I can help you with?

    God is ‘He’ / ‘Him.

    Not ‘Them / They”.

    He is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ is the Son of this God.

    Jesus said to them,
    If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

    #872400
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now please tell us about that liar King David.  Did he lie about the sun intentionally?  Or was he lying about the sun because he was deceived?  Who deceived him?  And how do you know he was lying about the sun in the first place?  Who told YOU the truth about the sun, thereby proving that King David was a liar?

    The heavens is the sky which is above my head in New Zealand and anywhere I travel around the globe. So there is the heavens and the earth.

    Likewise with the moon, you see it is a globe too. If you stood on the surface, the good news is you wouldn’t slide off that either. Even if the surface was made of soap.

    Same goes for the sun. Of course you would have to travel at night otherwise your shoes would melt.

    If the earth was a floating peperoni pizza and hades was inside the pastry so to speak, then what is below the pastry? The heavens right? Boom!

    So the heavens is above but also below in the flat earth model at least. Doesn’t make sense right? Whereas in the globe model, it is always above.

    As for liars, are you not the one calling multitudes liars? Like NASA, pilots, astronauts, cosmonauts, kiwinauts, satellite providers, my friend’s dad who has been to the South Pole, and all those that have seen the curve of the earth?

    #872402
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: When Matthew says that the Holy Family taking refuge in Egypt was the fulfillment of Hosea 1:1, “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” quoted in Matthew 2:15,

    he knew darn well that this was not what the prophet Hosea had in mind.

    No, as any fool can see,

    Hosea chapter 11 is all about the Exodus of Israel,

    God’s beloved child,

    ME: JESUS CHRIST, PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT IN

    ABRAHAM’S,  ISAAC’S, AND JACOB’S CONCEPTIONS :

    BEFORE  ABRAHAM WAS I AM…

    THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB, THE GOD OF THE LIVING ALL IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN 

    ETERNAL LIFE

    HIDDEN IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE HEBREW PRPOCESS, THE SPIRIT OF LUCIFER, 

    THE LOST SHEEP OF

    ISRAEL, IN THE TRUTH

    JESUS CHRIST.

    HIDDEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB …..Rev.13:8 IN JACOB, THE FACT THAT 

    ISRAEL IS AN ENIGMATIC SPIRITUAL NAME  GIVEN BY AN ENIGMATIC BEING! 

    YOU: and how the people have been disobedient ever since that time.

    ME: WHILE JESUS CHRIST AS A SPIRIT “THE WORD” WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB IN THE ENTIRE RACE OF THE HEBREW PEOPLE UP TO THIS DAY AND FOR ETERNITY!

    YOU: Nothing about any Messiah. Certainly nothing about Jesus Christ

    ME: ACCORDING TO ALL THE HEBREW PEOPLE AND YOU

    TOTALLY STAGNATED  CARNALLY MINDED SPIRITUALLY IMMATURE and STABURN PEOPLE!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT! 

    Exodus 4:22And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:

    Israel is my son, my firstborn. 

    23I have said to thee:

    Let my son go, that he may serve me,

    and thou wouldst not let him go:

    behold I will kill thy son, (SATAN) thy firstborn. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872403
    gadam123
    Participant

    ACCORDING TO ALL THE HEBREW PEOPLE AND YOU

    TOTALLY STAGNATED  CARNALLY MINDED SPIRITUALLY IMMATURE and STABURN PEOPLE!

    I think that is a blatant allegation on the people of the Book (Hebrew Bible)

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