John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,501 through 22,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #871806
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike……Right on brother.  Very good post to LU and Berean too.

    Thanks Gene.  Hey, do you know what happened to Ed J?  I haven’t heard anything from him in months.

    #871807
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Mike 
    John 1:3 give the answer
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
    HIM = THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    Thanks for your answer.  You believe Jesus is the Creator.  What then do you make of this?

    Mark 13:19-20

    …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 

    Is Jesus talking about himself as “God” in that verse?

    #871810
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Very good question…..

    My answer IS

    GOD CREATED BY HIS SON BECAUSE

    ALL IS FROM GOD THE FATHER(the Son too) AND BY HIS SON…

    …..one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;

    and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    I’m sure you will one day understand this: OF WHOM ….. BY WHOM

    THE FATHER: OF WHOM…..ETC…

    THE SON : BY WHOM…..ETC…

    Note : The Son IS not created but BEGOTTEN from God thé Father:

    For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Angels are created beings, not THE SON OF GOD

    God bless

    #871812
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike
    John 1:3 give the answer
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    HIM = THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    This is the fate of the NT it contradicts its own Christology. I hope Mike and other non-trinitarians will notice this problem. They also believe Jesus’ preexistence as the word in the beginning with God. The only difference is they only believe that Jesus created by God first. Hope brother Gene notice the difference.

    #871815
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    The only difference is they only believe that Jesus created by God first. Hope brother Gene notice the difference. 

     

    Me

    This is not Jesus Christ created BY God first 

    This IS :   GOD CREATED ALL THINGS 

    BY JESUS CHRIST  

    God bless you BY Jesus Christ

    #871819
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: GOD CREATED BY HIS SON 

    So if God created, who is our Creator?

    Berean: ALL IS FROM GOD THE FATHER(the Son too) AND BY HIS SON…  I’m sure you will one day understand this…

    I already understand it.  I understand that you take the KJV word “by” and ignore the fact that the true meaning of it is “through”.  So the scriptural truth is that all things came FROM God, and THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.  Just like your own children came FROM God, but they came THROUGH you.  It’s really not that hard as long as you remember that he who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing was created is another.  Remember God telling Jeremiah, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you”?  God is the one who created Jeremiah, but God did that THROUGH Jeremiah’s parents on earth, right?  He who created Jeremiah (God) is one, and those THROUGH WHOM Jeremiah was created (his parents) are others.  And you can change every THROUGH that I used above to the KJV’s BY – and the meaning remains exactly the same.

     

    Berean: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Angels are created beings, not THE SON OF GOD

    Again you err, for the word “angel” is just the English substitution for Hebrew and Greek words that both simply mean “messenger”.  When the “messenger” in question is thought to be a spirit being, English translators use the word “angel” – but spirit being or not, the Hebrew and Greek scriptures call them “messengers”.  Let me show you that same verse in the Young’s Literal Translation…

    For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’ and again, ‘I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?’

    Surely you agree that Jesus was a “messenger” of God, right?  So now, how would you answer the same question with the correct word “messengers” in it?  You’d probably answer it, “Jesus!  Jesus is the only messenger to whom God ever said, ‘Today I have begotten you’!”, right?  And that would be the correct answer.  The answer to Paul’s question – whether you use the literal “messenger” or the substitution “angel”, is Jesus.

    So that question is not intended to say that Jesus ISN’T a “messenger” or “angel”.  It’s intended to distinguish Jesus as above and greater than all the OTHER messengers/angels.

    Jesus is most definitely a messenger of God.  And if we accept the word “angel” to describe spirit messengers of God, then Jesus is most definitely an angel of God.  Because the entirety of Revelation consists of Jesus (who is once again a spirit being in heaven) delivering a message from his and our God to John.  And if Jesus – as a spirit being – is delivering messages for God, then Jesus is a spirit messenger of God, ie: an angel.

    Besides, Jesus himself says within that very message that he is the beginning of the creation by God, ie: the first thing God ever created.

    Cheers

     

     

    #871820
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam:  This is the fate of the NT it contradicts its own Christology. I hope Mike and other non-trinitarians will notice this problem. 

    Not contradictions – just misinterpretations by flawed human beings.

    #871821
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Hebrews 1 shows us the superiority of Christ over the angels (messengers)
    why is Christ superior or greater?

    – HE IS GOD and IS the creator of angels and also their adorable leader.

    Pau To Hebrews :

    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    [16] For by him were all things created, 

    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him : 

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 

     

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD….

    WHY YOU DON’T BELEIVE ?

    #871822
    Berean
    Participant

    JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. 

     

     

    #871832
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……let me paraphrase it for you OK?,  “Jesus is the “only” “born flesh and blood human being, to become a Son of God,” yet,   (the first of many) to come.

    Satan wants you to believe Jesus didn’t come into his only true existence through a human birth process,  and therefore is not of the human race.  That is exactly what you false teachers are doing for your God,  Satan.
    Jesus represents the exact purpose God has in mind for all humans he chooses to save, He is the pro-type of all of the saved.
    Did he not say, “whosoever overcomes “even”  as “I have”,  will be with me in my Kingdom , even as I have overcome, and am sit down in my Fathers kingdom?

    Trying to move Jesus away from humanity is the work of Satan himself, 2ths2. Trying to make him in the God you worship as your God , is the big “LIE”  spoken of in,  2Ths 2 . That ‘LIE”, Which you preach for Satan, is a lie which Jesus himself will abolish at his return, just as it is written there, by his own mouth at his return.  

    peace and love to you and yours………….gene

     

    #871834
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Hebrews 1 shows us the superiority of Christ over the angels (messengers)
    why is Christ superior or greater?

    It shows that Jesus BECAME as superior to the OTHER messengers of God as the name HIS GOD gave him was superior to theirs.  His God gave him that name because, as God’s holy servant, Jesus faithfully carried out God’s commandments on earth.  That’s why Jesus’ God gave him a name above all the other names in heaven (aside from God Himself, of course).

    Berean:  HE IS GOD and IS the creator of angels and also their adorable leader.

    Can you imagine God ever being lower than the angels He created, and so had to be GIVEN superiority over them? Who GAVE God his superiority over the angels He created?  The angels?

    Can you imagine God the Creator being the holy servant of God the Not-Creator?

    You’re doctrine requires people to believe nonsensical things, Berean.

    Berean: AND THE WORD WAS GOD….

    WHY YOU DON’T BELEIVE ?

    I don’t believe that because it’s not what the Greek text says.  The words John wrote teach that the Word was a god who was with the God in the beginning.

    Again, can you imagine God being WITH God in the beginning?  Like I said… nonsense.

    Berean, do you understand that the most straightforward, word-for-word English translation of John 1:1c is, “and the word was a god“?  These two scholars are vehemently Trinitarian, yet they say…

    “Accordingly, from the point of view of grammar alone, [QEOS HN hO LOGOS] could be rendered “the Word was a god,….” – Murray J. Harris

    “If a translation were a matter of substituting words, a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”.  As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” – C. H. Dodd

    Of course there are hundreds of other Trinitarian scholars who understand that “the word was a god” is a completely acceptable way to translate John 1:1c – and many dozens of Bibles that DO translate it that way. In fact, the first translation of the NT into a language that uses the indefinite article like we do in English translated it as “the word was a god” – and that was thousands of years ago, while Jesus’ own disciples were still walking the earth and people were still speaking the koine Greek language of Jesus’ time on earth!  In other words, these Coptic translators understood the meaning of John’s Greek texts very well – because they spoke the same language at the same time.  They knew that John wasn’t an idiot, saying that the Most High God was WITH the Most High God.  They knew that John was saying that the one who was WITH the Most High God in the beginning was himself a god – as are all of God’s spirit sons.

    Berean, I always wonder why you don’t become engaged in these discussions.  For example, I know you won’t say a word about the possibility of translating 1:1c as “the word was a god”.  You won’t make any kind of valid argument against it – or even try to refute that it is a perfectly acceptable translation of those Greek words.  Instead, you’ll just post – big and bold – “all things were created BY him” – as if that solves the case.  Why is that?  To me, that says that you can’t defend your beliefs, but can only act as an ill-informed cheerleader, promoting them over and over.  But doesn’t scripture tell us to always be prepared to answer those who question your beliefs?  Hmm…

    Anyway, you told me the first time that Jesus is our Creator.  Then you told me that God created by Jesus.  So I asked you again who our Creator was, and you didn’t answer.  You’ve given me two different answers as to who our ONE Creator is.  I’d like to know your FINAL answer.  Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them?  Give me a single name, please.

    #871835
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. 

    Jesus is a god because he is one of God’s spirit sons.  All of God’s spirit sons are gods.  Jesus is the first one that God brought forth into existence.  Besides, your claim is irrational.  The only begotten son of the human being King David will be a human, and may even someday be a king – but he’ll never be the King David who begot him.

    This is simple common sense.  If the Most High God begets a son, then that son will also be a god like his Father.  But he’ll never be the very Most High God who begot him in the first place.  One is the uncreated cause of all things, while the other was begotten (ie: brought into existence) by the uncreated cause of all things.

    #871836
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Satan wants you to believe Jesus didn’t come into his only true existence through a human birth process,  and therefore is not of the human race.

    John 8:58

    Very truly I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I existed.

     

    Gene, what did Jesus mean by those words?

    #871837
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….. First of all , the word “I existed” is not in the text , Jesus said Before Abraham I am.

    The word “before” used there does not imply a time period.  But a rank or position of importance. The Jews used their tie to Abraham as their position of their importance.  John the Baptist had the same problem with them, that is why he told the that God could raise up children to Abraham from the rocks if he wanted to. There tie with Abraham would not save them as they though it would. That is the same problem Jesus had with them to, they were relying on their relationship with Abraham, giving them  their importance with God, and Jesus was simply telling them he was more “important” to them, then ABRAHAM WAS.

    Mike…..Look up the word before in the Greek translation and you should see what I am saying.

    Alway remember Mike , Satan wants to always make Jesus appear to be “different” then we are , and his ministers do the same,  that is why they make him out to be a God.  The idea of a “PREEXISTING ” , JESUS is also another of his deceptions also.  It all works to move Jesus away from his human brother and sisters.  He does it through his doctrines of “SEPARATION “,  making Jesus appear different,  destroying our “FAITH” in the power of GOD the Father, to work in us “EXACTLY” as He did in The human Jesus, by the “Exact” same way.  So he produced all these false teachings about Jesus , by his servants the trinitarian’s  Mike read 2 Ths 2.  It’s all there brother. That man of sin , is the false “image” of Jesus, Which turns the “Image ” of Jesus into a “PREEXISTING ” GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

     

    #871838
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean…

    Revelation 1:1

    This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon come to pass.

    1. Is Jesus a messenger of God?

    2. Is Jesus a spirit being now?

    Angel:  A spirit messenger of God

    #871839
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….you are right Jesus is the messenger who delivered What was given him from God the Father, and he delivered it to John another messenger of God , who delivered it to the Churches.  Just that simple,  Jesus is not an, angelic ” being”,  he is the “messenger”.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #871840
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  First of all , the word “I existed” is not in the text , Jesus said Before Abraham I am.

    No Gene, not “before Abraham I am”, but “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE I am”.

    “before Abraham GINOMAI, I am”   

    And what does the Greek word “ginomai” mean, Gene?  Look it up for yourself, but here’s the definition of it:

    1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

    I’ve told you this before, and you just walked away from the conversation.  Now I’m asking you to stand and defend your claim – which you make clearly against the evidence.

    The words are, “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I am“.

    Do some checking on your own, and either acknowledge that the word “ginomai” is in John 8:58, or make a claim that it isn’t in that verse.  And once you acknowledge that the word IS in the text, please explain to me what these words by Jesus mean:

    “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed”.

    Do you see what I’m doing here, Gene?  I’m once again giving you the opportunity to correct some false information that you’ve spread on HN for many years.  Will you correct yourself and acknowledge the word “ginomai”?  Or will you ignore this post like you did the last time – only to come back weeks later and make the same erroneous claim that it says, “Before Abraham I am” ?

    Gene, it does NOT say “before Abraham I am”.  It DOES say, “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I am”.

    Please either prove me wrong, or be honest enough to admit your mistake, and correct it so you don’t continue to preach falsehoods.

    #871841
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….you are right Jesus is the messenger who delivered What was given him from God the Father, and he delivered it to John another messenger of God , who delivered it to the Churches.  Just that simple,  Jesus is not an, angelic ” being”,  he is the “messenger”.

    Yes, Jesus is a messenger of his and our God.  But Jesus is also a spirit being again in heaven – restored to the glory he had alongside his God before the world began.  And a spirit being who is a messenger of God is, by definition, an angel.

    Jesus is the foremost angel of God – higher than all the other angels.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

    Jesus will command with the voice of an archangel because that’s exactly what he is now.  Michael is also an archangel (and there are probably many others whose names we don’t know), but Jesus’ God gave Jesus a name above all those other archangels.  So while he’s not the only one, he is the highest among them.

     

    #871844
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Jesus is a god because he is one of God’s spirit sons.

    Me

    What You Say IS not written in The Bible….

    BUT IT IS WRITTEN

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD 

    NOT A GOD 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER

    AND JESUS IS THE

    ONLY 

    BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    NOT CREATED BUT

    BEGOTTEN

     

    #871845
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Mike

    ….all things were created by him(Jésus), and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 

    Amen!

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