John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,201 through 22,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #870239
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel, why could Stephen see the person of Jesus, but not the person of God?  And doesn’t that mean that the person of Jesus is not the person of God?

    ME: First and foremost Scripture never says that Stephen

    saw only the person of Jesus and not the person of God.

    Scripture EMPHATICALLY says that Stephen saw

     (A) THE GLORY OF GOD,

    and

    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

    Mike, JUST REFLECT WHAT YOU, COMPLETELY LOST WITHIN YOUR CORRUPTED MIND SAID, YOU SAID THAT

    IN THE GLORY OF GOD, 

    WHICH STEPHEN SAW, EITHER

    (A) THERE WAS NO GOD! OR

    (B) STEPHEN COULD ONLY SEE JESUS, BUT NOT GOD.

    NEVERTHELESS:

     ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, DEFINITELY  WITHOUT THE SINGLE DOUBT,

    STEPHEN STILL SAW BOTH

    (A) THE GLORY OF GOD and 

    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!

    CONCLUSION ACCORDING TO YOU Mike, NOW IS THAT

    STEPHEN SAW THAT 

    (C) JESUS  THE SON OF MAN,

    ALL BY HIMSELF STANDING IS BOTH

    THE GLORY OF GOD, which Stephen saw, and 

    GOD JESUS THE SON OF MAN IN HIS GLORY OF GOD.

    Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess ( Also you Mike, Gene, and Jodi)  that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #870241
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

     

    #870258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike……Try dealing with that, maze of twists and turns. LOL.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    😁😂🤣  I was skimming through and trying hard to detect any semblance of rationality, but to no avail.

    #870259
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: NEVERTHELESS:

     ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, DEFINITELY  WITHOUT THE SINGLE DOUBT,

    STEPHEN STILL SAW BOTH

    (A) THE GLORY OF GOD and 
    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!

    Correct.  No man can see God, but Moses and Stephen were both granted to see the glory of God.  Therefore, Stephen saw only the glory of God (not God Himself), and Stephen saw God’s holy servant Jesus at God’s right hand.  How did Stephen know Jesus was at God’s right hand?  Because Jesus was standing to the right of a radiant glory that Stephen said was the glory of God.  Carmel, when you read scriptures that say Jesus will rule from a throne at God’s right hand, do you assume that something/someone positioned to the right OF God also IS God?

    Carmel: CONCLUSION ACCORDING TO YOU Mike, NOW IS THAT

    STEPHEN SAW THAT 

    (C) JESUS  THE SON OF MAN,
    ALL BY HIMSELF STANDING IS BOTH
    THE GLORY OF GOD, which Stephen saw, and 
    GOD JESUS THE SON OF MAN IN HIS GLORY OF GOD.

    You’ve replaced the word “and” with the word “in”.  Stephen didn’t see Jesus IN the glory of God.  Stephen saw Jesus AND the glory of God.  Carmel, do we agree that Stephen was able to see Jesus?  Can we agree that Jesus was standing to the right of something Stephen called “the glory of God”?  Can we agree that if Jesus is standing to the right of this “glory”, then it’s clear that Jesus can’t also BE this “glory”?  I mean, how can you stand to the right of the Empire State Building and also BE the Empire State Building?  How can you stand to the right of a fireball and also BE the fireball you are standing beside?

    It amazes me that you can take such simple words like “I see Jesus and the glory of God, and Jesus is standing to the right of the glory of God” and turn it into some bizarre interpretation where Jesus IS the very thing he is standing to the right OF.  🤔

     

     

    #870260
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….. Isn’t there even one scripture you can quote without changing it.

    Phil 2:11…..”and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is lord, “TO” the glory of God the Father. 

    Not ” “IN” the glory of God,  but “TO” the glory of God the Father

    God the Father gives “HIS” Glory, to “NO” man,  your the one doing that, not him nor any true believer .
    Carmel, please try not to add “your” words to our text’s.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #870262
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Have you read the last quote that Jodi gave to LU? , absolutely amazing how the Spirit of truth , is guiding her mind, and the solid soundness of scripture being afforded her.  Read he post

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #870264
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Just follow the subject throughout…  God spoke in the past; God spoke in more recent times; God appointed someone; God created the world.

    There are others identified here, namely “the prophets” and “his son”.  But the teaching is that God did x, y, and z through either “the prophets” or “his son”.

    So at this point, can you and I agree that the writer is talking about one particular god, and the prophets/son through whom this particular god did certain things?

    LU: Yes, God the Father of Jesus who was not alone creating the world, specifically.

    Agreed.  The author was talking about God, the Father (and God) of Jesus.  So when the author writes the words, he created the world”, the pronoun “he” refers to God the Father.  We are in agreement that “he” refers back to the one the author identifies as “God”.

    So, the author of Hebrews tells us who created the world, and identifies Jesus as someone other than that One, right? And in the prayer in Acts 4, the Apostles tell us who created the world, and identify Jesus as someone other than that One, right?  And what does Jesus himself say about it?

    Mark 13:19 …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    So now we have Jesus himself telling us who created the world, right?  In fact, Jesus tells us that he is the first creation by that God who created all things…

    Rev 3:14  …And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

    …which of course aligns perfectly with this…

    Prov 8:22  The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    So how do you align all of these with your idea that Jesus is the Creator?

     

     

    #870266
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Carmel….. Isn’t there even one scripture you can quote without changing it.

    Phil 2:11…..”and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is lord, “TO” the glory of God the Father. 

    Not ” “IN” the glory of God,  but “TO” the glory of God the Father

    Good catch.  I saw that twist too when I was pointing out the other one.

    #870276
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Scripture EMPHATICALLY says that Stephen saw

    (A) THE GLORY OF GOD,
    and

    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.
    Mike, JUST REFLECT WHAT YOU, COMPLETELY LOST WITHIN YOUR CORRUPTED MIND SAID, YOU SAID THAT

    IN THE GLORY OF GOD,

    WHICH STEPHEN SAW, EITHER

    (A) THERE WAS NO GOD! OR
    (B) STEPHEN COULD ONLY SEE JESUS, BUT NOT GOD.
    NEVERTHELESS:

    ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, DEFINITELY WITHOUT THE SINGLE DOUBT,

    STEPHEN STILL SAW BOTH

    (A) THE GLORY OF GOD and
    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!
    CONCLUSION ACCORDING TO YOU Mike, NOW IS THAT

    STEPHEN SAW THAT

    (C) JESUS THE SON OF MAN,
    ALL BY HIMSELF STANDING IS BOTH
    THE GLORY OF GOD, which Stephen saw, and
    GOD JESUS THE SON OF MAN IN HIS GLORY OF GOD.

    It’s not hard to understand. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So you won’t see God. Instead you will see his glory. And the greatest glory of God is the visible image of the invisible God. He has the fullness of the deity within him.

    In the throne room is Jesus who is seated on God’s throne. Beyond creation is God. He cannot be contained by creation.

    God’s spirit flows through creation via the throne where the river of life is sourced. Jesus is enveloped in the glory of his God and our God. His eyes are like a fire. The river of life flows from the throne and through the streets of the great city and out into the paradise of God.

    Creatures worship day and night at the throne because they are located to the source of life. The way the truth the life.

    #870278
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    You

    In the throne room is Jesus who is seated on God’s throne. Beyond creation is God. He cannot be contained by creation.

    Me

    What do You MEAN by:

    He cannot be contained by creation.

    ???

    The scriptures tell us that he (THE FATHER) is a person(Heb.1:3) located in heaven …

    Why do you say He cannot be contained by creation?

     

    And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    [4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.(Rev.22:3,4)

    And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.(Rev.21:3)

    God bless you

    #870289
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Mikeboll64

    Mike, you asked me this:

    So, the author of Hebrews tells us who created the world, and identifies Jesus as someone other than that One, right? And in the prayer in Acts 4, the Apostles tell us who created the world, and identify Jesus as someone other than that One, right?  And what does Jesus himself say about it?

    Mark 13:19 …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    So now we have Jesus himself telling us who created the world, right?  In fact, Jesus tells us that he is the first creation by that God who created all things…

    Rev 3:14  …And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…

    …which of course aligns perfectly with this…

    Prov 8:22  …The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    So how do you align all of these with your idea that Jesus is the Creator?

    Mike says:So, the author of Hebrews tells us who created the world, and identifies Jesus as someone other than that One, right?

    LU says: No, wrong. The author of Hebrews identifies two persons who created the world and clarifies that the two persons are Father and Son.

    Mike says:

    Mark 13:19 …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    So now we have Jesus himself telling us who created the world, right?

    LU says: Jesus knows that there were two persons creating the world, one is God the Father and the other is the Son of God the Father. God the Father did not do it alone as you know. Jesus knows that when the Father created the world, He did it through Him (the Son).

    Mike says: Rev 3:14  …And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…

    LU says: Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:…

    The origin of the creation of God, is the Son. The whole creation of God originated in the Son through whom all things were made.

    with this: Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    The Son existed and was part of the Unity of YHVH before the early works of the YHVH (Prov 8:22). The Son was the origin of those early works of YHVH (Rev 3:14). As part of the Unity of YHVH, He (the Son) is identified by the Father as the YHVH that:

    Heb 1:10

    “In the beginning, O Lord (the Son), You (the Son) laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    I hope that helps.

    Blessings, LU

     

    #870290
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:Carmel: NEVERTHELESS:

     ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, DEFINITELY  WITHOUT THE SINGLE DOUBT,

    STEPHEN STILL SAW BOTH

    (A) THE GLORY OF GOD and 
    (B) JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!

    Correct.  No man can see God,

    Not correct Mike I’m afraid!

    I repeat what I said already, it seems to me that you are not that keen on the

    NEW TESTAMENT.

    Don’t you know that Jesus fulfilled the OLD TESTAMENT? 

    From Jesus redemption, ALL CAN SE GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST!

    Isaiah 40:55 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,

    and all flesh together shall see,

    that the mouth of the Lord hath spoken. 

    “THE WORD” IS JESUS THE SON OF MAN!

    John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    (and we saw his glory,

    the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

    Philipians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.
     

    and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon

    the throne of his glory:

    2Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of

    the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    John14:8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him:

    Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.
    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    ALL THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES, Mike, CONFIRM THAT 

    JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD IN HIMSELF!

    JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE  God! Colossians 1:15

    Hebrews 1:2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son,

    whom he hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS,….

    Now, Mike, as you can read Jesus

    INHERITED ALL THINGS,

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON, BUT JESUS INHERITED ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD:

    JESUS IS GODMAN!

    YOU: Jesus was standing to the right of a radiant glory that Stephen said was the glory of God.  

    Hebrews 1:3Who being the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory,

    Again, Mike, Jesus is THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FATHER’S GLORY!

    JESUS IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD!

    GODMAN!

    ME: John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come;

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    In the above, IN ONE INSTANT, THE FATHER GLORIFIES JESUS, HOW??? AND

    JESUS GLORIFIES THE FATHER, HOW??? PERFECT EQUALITY WITH ONE ACT! DEATH!

    THE FATHER CANNOT DIE, BUT JESUS DIES FOR THE FATHER’S SAKE AND TRUTH, THEN THE FATHER GLORIFIES THE SON WITH HIS SPIRIT GENERAL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, WHILE THE SON GLORIFIES THE FATHER IN

    THE HOLY GHOST WITH HIS FLESH GENERAL ATTRIBUTES OF HUMANS. ACTS 20:28 

    MIKE JUST REFLECT, GOD THE FATHER, SPIRIT, NEVER HAD AND STILL, DON’T HAVE 

    A GLORIFIED FLESH BODY! JERUSALEM!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, FLESH, ALSO NEVER HAD, UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS,

    A GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY! 

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said,

    Now is the Son of man GLORIFIED,

    and God is glorified IN HIM.

    The above is a repetition of John17:1 above: JESUS, HUMAN, IS GLORIFIED IN GOD’S SPIRIT, AND GOD SPIRIT IS GLORIFIED IN JESUS’FLESH. IN

    THE HOLY GHOST, who for the first time owned the flesh in

    JESUS CHRIST ACTS 20:28 

    THE SON OF GOD ON JESUS’DEATH ON THE CROSS, emphatically clear hereunder again:

    32 If God be glorified IN HIM (JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, FLESH) God shall also glorify him (JESUS, THE SON OF MAN) in himself,( SPIRIT, GODMAN)

    and shall straightway glorify him.(ON HIS DEATH)

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with THYSELF  with the glory which I had, before the world was, with THEE.

    JESUS CHRIST WAS THE PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    THE BEGINNING!

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    OK Mike, ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED TWO IN ONE SUBSTANCE

    BOTH IN HIS HUMAN FLESH AND IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    GODMAN! 

    You:  Therefore, Stephen saw only the glory of God (not God Himself), and Stephen saw God’s

    holy servant Jesus at God’s right hand.

    ME: MIKE, JUST TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY  AGAIN, ABOUT A BIT OF SCRIPTURE THAT YOU ARE MORE THAN FAMILIAR WITH  READ:

    1 Corinthians15:Afterwards the end, when he (JESUS CHRIST) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father,

    when he (GOD THE FATHER) shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. 

    TELL ME MIKE IS THE FATHER SERVING JESUS RIGHT NOW???  READ THE NEXT NOW

    25For he (JESUS CHRIST) must reign,

    until he (GOD THE FATHER) hath put all his (JESUS’) enemies under his feet. 

    TELL ME MIKE IS THE FATHER SERVING JESUS RIGHT NOW???

    26And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he(GOD THE FATHER)  hath put all things under his (JESUS’) feet.

    TELL ME MIKE IS THE FATHER SERVING JESUS RIGHT NOW???

    And whereas he saith, 27All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he (GOD THE FATHER)  is excepted,

    who put all things under him

    TELL ME MIKE IS THE FATHER SERVING JESUS RIGHT NOW???

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

    NOW ATTENTION MIKE AND GENE,

    THEN ( NOT NOW, OK, Mike and Gene,

    Jesus IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE FATHER, to the extent that if it was not JESUS, the Father already annihilated this world, )  

    the Son also himself shall be subject unto him

    that put all things under him,

    WHICH MEANS THAT JESUS CHRIST’S  GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY

    WOULD PASS TO THE FATHER! 

    GOD THE FATHER AS JESUS CHRIST!

    THE FATHER OF THE NEW WORLD TO COME! Isaiah 9:6

    AS HE WAS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, BOTH IN ONE GLORY!
    THE FATHER OCCUPIES  THE JESUS’ BODY AND

    THE SON OCCUPIES BOTH HIS ORIGINAL SPIRIT IN THE FATHER’S BOSOM, AND

    IN THE BODIES OF HIS  ENTIRE KINGDOM. THE KINGDOM OF THE SONGOD!

    that God may be all in all.

    YOU: Carmel, when you read scriptures that say Jesus will rule from a throne at God’s right hand, do you assume that something/someone positioned to the right OF God also IS God?

    1John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,

    when he shall appear,
    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as

    HE IS.

    ME: READ ALL THE ABOVE AGAIN Mike, and

    TELL ME WHAT DID STEPHEN SEE 

    IN THE GLORY OF GOD! 

    BY WHICH STEPHEN REALIZED THAT

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN  WAS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD???

    HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT

    ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD MEANS!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870375
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  So, the author of Hebrews tells us who created the world, and identifies Jesus as someone other than that One, right?

    LU: No, wrong. The author of Hebrews identifies two persons who created the world and clarifies that the two persons are Father and Son.

    I see the words “he created”.  “He” is singular, and refers to “God”.  I understand you want to read it as “he AND the Son created”, but those words aren’t there.

    Then you compound your error of mentally adding “and the Son” to the scriptural phrase “he created”, by later using verse 10 to remove the Father and conclude that the Son alone made the heavens and the earth.

    The author speaks of one who created.  You change that in your mind to imagine that the writer is speaking of two who created.  But then, when you get to verse 10, you get rid of one of the two you imagined, and imagine that it was the Son alone who laid the foundations of the earth and made the heavens.

    The author says A did something, and B was there.  You first combine A and B into a team that did the thing together.  Then you later dump A and claim that B alone did the thing. 🤔

    What if you did that with the prophets through whom God spoke?  First you would imagine that the words “God spoke” really mean “God AND a prophet spoke”.  Then later, you’d drop God from the equation and conclude that it was only the prophet who spoke, and God was just somehow there in the background.

    How about we just let the author teach us, instead of us teaching him?  The author says “he created”.  The “he” is singular, and refers to “God” alone – not God and the Son.

    “He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.”  – Tertullian

    #870376
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Mark 13:19 …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    So now we have Jesus himself telling us who created the world, right?

    LU: Jesus knows that there were two persons creating the world, one is God the Father and the other is the Son of God the Father. God the Father did not do it alone as you know. Jesus knows that when the Father created the world, He did it through Him (the Son).

    What?  “Jesus knows”, therefore if Jesus clearly says “when God created the world“, we should imagine that he really meant “when I and God created the world“?  Kathi, why do you think you insert your own words and thoughts into what what the author of Hebrews actually wrote, and what Jesus actually said?  I think it’s because the scriptures don’t actually teach what you’d like them to.  In fact, I think it’s because the scriptures teach the complete opposite of what you’d like them to teach, and so you have no choice but to go all mental gymnastics on the actual words/teachings in the Bible.

    But even with your additional words/thoughts added in, you again defeat your Hebrews 1:10 claim.  You can’t argue that every time scripture says “God created” it means “God AND Jesus created“, but then turn around and argue that 1:10 is God speaking about Jesus.  Because if it were God speaking about Jesus, then God isn’t saying “you AND I created” or “WE created“, right?  Instead, it would be God giving 100% credit for creating the heavens and earth to Jesus.  It would be God telling someone else, YOU did these things – not WE did them.

    You’re twisting scriptures, adding to them, and still coming out on the losing end.  Time to just let the scriptures teach you.

    #870377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Rev 3:14  …And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…

    LU: Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:…

    The origin of the creation of God, is the Son. The whole creation of God originated in the Son through whom all things were made.

    I can get on board with that.  God’s creation most certainly originated with Jesus – His first creation.  And that would certainly make Jesus the “origin” of the creation by God.  That’s why it’s written that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature and that God created him as the first of His works.

    But the word “beginning” would have the same meaning in that case – so why even bother with semantics?  The same author uses the same word in both of these scriptures…

    Rev 3:14… These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…

    John 1:1… In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God…

     

     

    #870379
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    From the 25 Trinitarian scholars who produced the NET Bible…

    There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root…  the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”…

    Consider the parallel verses…

    Proverbs 8 NIV (Produced by 100+ Trinitarian Scholars!)

    22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,

    before his deeds of old;

    23I was formed long ages ago,

    at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

    24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,

    when there were no springs overflowing with water;

    25before the mountains were settled in place,

    before the hills, I was given birth,

    Even if you insist on a meaning of “possessed”, it still would say that Jesus was a possession of God (as are all of God’s creations).  But all the other verses talking about being “brought forth” and “given birth” clearly argue for the meaning of “created” – not “possessed”.  And if we continue reading, we’ll see Jesus himself once again telling us who created all things…

    26before he made the world or its fields

    or any of the dust of the earth.

    27I was there when he set the heavens in place,

    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

    28when he established the clouds above

    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

    29when he gave the sea its boundary

    so the waters would not overstep his command,

    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    30Then I was constantly at his side.

    I was filled with delight day after day,

    rejoicing always in his presence,

    31rejoicing in his whole world

    and delighting in mankind.

    Kathi, who do you suppose all those singular pronouns refer to?  I know they refer back to “YHVH” in verse 22.  Will you now change every “he” to “we”, and every “his” to “our” in your quest to make Jesus the co-creator who for some reason is identified as the sole creator in Hebrews 1:10?

     

    #870380
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: God the Father gives “HIS” Glory, to “NO” man,  your the one doing that, not him nor any true believer .

    ME: Scriptures Gene:

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God,

    WHO IS THIS GOD THAT THEY KNEW OF?

    they have not glorified him as God,….

     23And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God

    WHO IS THIS INCORRUPTIBLE GOD Gene?

    into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things.

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and

    thine are mine;

    Gene IN THE ABOVE JESUS CONFIRMED THAT

    ALL GOD’S THINGS ARE HIS, WHICH INCLUDES FOR SURE GOD’S GLORY, NO? CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    and I am glorified in them.

    John13:31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

    Gene, PURE TRUTH CONFIRMED ABOVE THAT 

    JESUS “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, AND GOD ARE RIGHT NOW EXPERIENCING 

    ONE SAME GLORY!

     32If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him

    in himself;…..

    Gene, AGAIN, JESUS, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN RIGHT NOW 

    IS GLORIFIED IN ONE GLORY IN GOD!

    Hebrews 1:3Who being the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory,

    Again, Gene,  Jesus is

    THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FATHER’S GLORY!

    JESUS IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD!

    GODMAN!

    Isaiah 40:55 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,

    and all flesh together shall see,

    that the mouth of the Lord hath spoken. 

    Gene, THE MOUTH OF THE LORD HAS SPOKEN, AND HIS OWN WORD/SPIRIT BECAME

    FLESH AND THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER WAS

    REVEALED IN JESUS, AND THE HUMAN RACE SAW

    THE GLORY OF GOD, THE FULL DEITY IN A FLESH HUMAN BEING

    JESUS CHRIST

    IN AL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN,

    ALL OF HEAVEN!

    Acts 7:55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven,

    saw the glory of God,

    and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
    And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and

    the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 

    Gene, IN THE ABOVE STEPHEN, SAW:

    the Son of man standing on the right hand of God

    IN ONE GLORY OF GOD!

     

    THAT SHOULD DO IT Gene, THOUGH A BLIND AND CARNAL MINDED PERSON LIKE YOU, WITH EVERY RESPECT, 

    NEVER SEE THE TRUTH! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #870381
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: TELL ME MIKE IS THE FATHER SERVING JESUS RIGHT NOW???

    I don’t believe your mind is completely connected to the real world, Carmel.  If you were poor, and an anonymous benefactor just started paying your bills so you and your family wouldn’t be out on the streets, would you consider that benefactor your servant? 🤔 So strange.  Your extremely long and extremely convoluted post can be summed up perfectly in this 30 second clip…

    #870382
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….your first two posts to LU, Were perfect IMO.  Your last post, i see different, because it says,  In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and “WAS GOD” .  This to me simply shows God and his word are one and the same.

    The man Jesus, “became”,  a “new” ,  Creation of God,  the First of the human creation of God to go into the family of God, as a “eternal living”,  “human being” “First place in line of many to follow.  I have never seen a scripture that says Jesus  was the first thing God “ever” created. I am not saying one doesn’t exist , but I have never saw it.

    He in my opinion is not the first of all of God’s creation, that he ever created. The universe was probably the actual first thing God created, in plan for his ultimate human creation , as the Greek word “dia”, implies for a purpose of . The word “FIRST” , CAN IMPLY a lot of things, like the first in line of a particular line of  something.

    Mike I do like your responses, they do show some good solid reasoning brother.

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

     

     

     

    #870383
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: I don’t believe your mind is completely connected to the real world, Carmel.

      If you were poor,

    and an anonymous benefactor just started paying your bills so you and your family wouldn’t be out on the streets, would you consider that benefactor your servant? 

      ME: So strange. 

    WITH YOUR ANALOGUE,

    I don’t believe your mind is completely connected to the real world, MIKE.

    PRODUCE A REAL ANALOGUE CONNECTED TO THE REAL WORLD Mike if you want to win your argument!

    WE ARE DISCUSSING SPIRITUAL THINGS Mike,

    OUT OF THIS REAL WORLD!!!

    HOW MANY TIMES I TOLD YOU NOT TO PUT GOD IN THE AME BASKET AS HUMANS OF

    THIS REAL WORLD?

    John13:5After that, he putteth water into a basin, and

    began to wash the feet of the disciples,

    and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6He cometh therefore to Simon Peter. And Peter saith to him:

    Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 

    7Jesus answered, and said to him: What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8Peter saith to him:

    Thou shalt never wash my feet.

    Jesus answered him: If I wash thee not, thou shalt have no part with me. 9Simon Peter saith to him:

    Lord, not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.

    Mike, did Jesus serve Peter and His apostles?

    WAS JESUS CONNECTED TO THIS REAL WORLD?

    Mike, did you ever serve

    YOUR OWN SON?

    ANSWER PLEASE!

    I DID!!!

    ESPECIALLY WHEN I CHANGED HIS NAPPY  AT HIS AGE OF A FEW DAYS!

    I am serving my son right at this MOMENT IN TIME DOING THE ENTIRE FURNITURE OF HIS HOUSE FOR HIM

    WITHOUT ANY CHARGES AT ALL FOR DOING IT!

    AM I SERVING MY SON?

    AM I CONNECTED TO THE  REAL WORLD?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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