John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,181 through 22,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #870090
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel,  Jesus said the God was the “ONLY” true GOD”,  NOT ME, I just believe him, obviously you don’t honestly believe him. Trying to twist what i say is exactly wha you do with what Jesus And so many other scripture also say. 

    ME: NOW WITH YOUR OWN MOUTH Gene

    YOU SIMPLY CONFIRMED THAT

    NO JESUS  NO THE ONLY TRUE GOD!

     

    JESUS IS THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

     

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that WE MAY KNOW THE TRUE GOD

    AND MAY BE IN HIS TRUE SON.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Read Gene this scripture:

    Matthew 23:2 And whosoever shall swear by temple,

    sweareth by it,

    and by him that dwelleth in it:

    NOW, IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH, ANSWER Gene:

    WHO DWELLS IN THE TEMPLE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #870091
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: So what does it tell us that Stephen was able to see the person of Jesus, but NOT the person of God?

    ME: NO MIKE THIS IS ONLY YOUR PERCEPTION I’M AFRAID!

    Read what Stephen, NOT ONLY SAW but alsoWHAT HE DISTINGUISHED FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME!

    Actas 7:55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven,

    saw the glory of God,

    and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

    And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 

    Mike can you understand WHAT ACTUALLY  STEPHEN SAW and DESCRIBED that 

    HE SAW THE GLORY OF GOD?

    Mike I ASK YOU NOW AND DESCRIBE FOR US ALL

    WHAT THE GLORY OF GOD THAT STEPHEN SAW FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME AND FOR ETERNITY CONSISTS IN?

     ANSWER THE TRUTH?

    YOU: Also notice that Stephen clearly distinguished Jesus FROM God by identifying him as one who sat at the right hand OF God.

    PERFECT MIKE!

    WHAT IS THE REASON AND MEANING THAT STEPHEN HAD TO DISTINGUISH 

    JESUS FROM GOD?

    TELL US THE TRUTH Mike PLEASE!

    JUST TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY ABOUT A BIT OF SCRIPTURE THAT YOU ARE MORE THAN FAMILIAR WITH  READ:

    1 Corinthians15:Afterwards the end, when he (JESUS CHRIST) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father,

    when he (GOD THE FATHER) shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. 

    25For he (JESUS CHRIST) must reign,

    until he (GOD THE FATHER) hath put all his (JESUS’) enemies under his feet. 

    26And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he(GOD THE FATHER)  hath put all things under his (JESUS’) feet. And whereas he saith, 27All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he (GOD THE FATHER)  is excepted, who put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

     

    NOW THIS IS MOSTLY FOR  Gene, 

    THEN ( NOT NOW)  

    the Son also himself shall be subject unto him

    that put all things under him,

    WHICH MEANS THAT JESUS CHRIST’S  GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY WOULD PASS TO THE FATHER! 

    GOD THE FATHER AS JESUS CHRIST!

    THE FATHER OF THE NEW WORLD TO COME! Isaiah 9:6

    AS HE WAS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, BOTH IN ONE GLORY! 

    THE FATHER OCCUPIES  THE SON’S BODY AND THE SON OCCUPIES BOTH HIS ORIGINAL SPIRIT IN THE FATHER’S BOSOM, AND

    IN THE BODIES OF HIS  ENTIRE KINGDOM. THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    that God may be all in all.

    GOD WOULD BE IN THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF THE SON IN!

    THE FATHER  ( ALL SPIRITS) in 

    THE SON  ( ALL FLESH) and in

    THE HOLY GHOST ( ALL SOULS)

    ALL IN ONE SAME BODY,

    1John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,

    when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as HE IS. 

    furnished by God 1 corinthians 15:38

    THE NEW JERUSALEM

    TELL US Mike NOW

    WHAT DID STEPHEN SEE IN THE GLORY OF GOD?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870097
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….. Sorry to say this,  but, I have never seen anyone twist up our scriptures more then you are. That to me is sad,  Nearly everything you quote to me and others and what you quoted to Mike is a twisted up rendition of someone who can’t  even read our bible text , even the “simple” things correctly .
    You have bought into all the lies of what the fallen “trinitarian ” churches teach, and as a result will suffer-their  fate.  Unless you repent.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #870100
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel….. Sorry to say this,  but, I have never seen anyone twist up our scriptures more then you are.

    ME: THE ABOVE Gene, IS YOUR FIRST ACCUSATION AGAINST ME, WITHOUT ANY SPECIFIC PROOF.

    YOU: That to me is sad,  Nearly everything you quote to me and others and what you quoted to Mike is a twisted up rendition of someone who can’t  even read our bible text , even the “simple” things correctly .

    ME: THE ABOVE IS ANOTHER SIMILAR ACCUSATION AND AGAIN WITHOUT ANY SPECIFIC PROOF THAT WHAT YOU ARE INSINUATING IS TRUE!

    I AM VERY SORRY MYSELF TO SAY THIS Gene, BUT YOU ARE FULL OF LIES, YOU ARE THE FATHER OF LIES! IMO.

    YOU:You have bought into all the lies of what the fallen “trinitarian ” churches teach, and as a result will suffer-their  fate.  Unless you repent.

    ME: IN THE ABOVE Gene, YOU SIMPLY MADE A TOPSY TURVY OF WHAT YOU SAID FURTHER UP, AND INSTEAD

    ACCUSED THE TRINITARIAN CHURCHES  NOT ME,

    AND NOW ACCORDING TO YOU,

    WHAT I PREACHED IS NOT  A TWISTED UP RENDITION OF SOMEONE WHO CAN’T EVEN READ OUR BIBLE, EVEN THE ” SIMPLE” THINGS CORRECTLY. BUT INSTEAD

    I BOUGHT INTO ALL THE LIES OF WHAT THE FALLEN TRINITARIAN CHURCHES TEACH! 

    BY YOUR OWN WORDS INDIRECTLY AND UNAWARE OF WHAT YOU’RE SAYING,

    TOTALLY SUBJECT TO YOUR CARNAL REASONING AND MENTALITY, 

    I AM NOT WHAT YOU’VE BEEN INSINUATING IN ALL YOUR POSTS!

    NOW THE TRUTH IS Gene, THAT YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE TO ANSWER ONE QUESTION I ASKED YOU  IN ALL MY POSTS AND ALSO PRODUCE  SPEFICILLY ANY PROOF IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY ALL WHAT YOU’ VE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT.

    IN THE MEANTIME Gene, I REPEAT: are YOU in a position to answer 

    MY LAST QUESTION HEREUNDER?

    Read this scripture FIRST:

    Matthew 23:2 And whosoever shall swear by temple,

    sweareth by it,

    and by him that dwelleth in it:

    NOW, IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH, ANSWER Gene:

    WHO DWELLS IN THE TEMPLE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870104
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    You said: The one through whom God created the world was not God.

    Yes He was. He just wasn’t God the Father.

    Look at verse 4…

    …having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    Do you really imagine that there was a time when God became superior to the angels by inheriting a better name than theirs?  Up until that time, God was equal to or lesser than the angels?

    He was made lower than the angels when the Son emptied Himself of His holy splendor to come in the appearance of man. Then when He had made purification for sins, He was exalted above them. The context as to becoming superior to the angels comes after He made purification for sins. Read it for yourself.

    The God that made the world was God the Father, one person who made the world through another person, His Son. That makes two persons, the Father and someone other than the Father.

    The “you” and “your” in this passage spoken by the Father, is the Son each time.

    THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU

    WITH THE OIL OF JOY ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,

    YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,

    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

    11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;

    AND THEY ALL WILL WEAR OUT LIKE A GARMENT,

    12AND LIKE A ROBE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;

    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.

    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,

    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

    The Father of the One whom He created through tells us clearly that the Son is YHVH that laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands.

    Please note that Heb 1:10 does not say “your LORD, in the beginning…” it says “you LORD, in the beginning…”

    This is clear, the Father is identifying His Son as YHVH.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f45N8fXMruo&t=3s

    Fast forward to the 24 minute mark.

    Blessings, LU

    #870109
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..the proof is how you add word , thoughts, and even change the meanings to our text. Anyone with any true understanding of what is written can see that, you bounce all over the place, adding words, changing meanings ,  you seem unable to just stay on one point at a time. You remind me of a person trying to get a speck out of someones eye and have a log  in your own. “Bad form”. 

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #870110
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..I just though of something you ask,  Good,  lets slow this down a bit and discuss it.
    I say,  the man” Jesus Christ is now sitting,  In the “temple ”  of God.
    What say you?

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #870116
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Carmel…..I just though of something you ask,  Good,  lets slow this down a bit and discuss it.

    ME: Read this scripture FIRST:

    Matthew 23:2 And whosoever shall swear by temple,

    sweareth by it,

    and by him that dwelleth in it:

    YOU:I say,  “the man” Jesus Christ is now sitting,  In the “temple ”  of God.
    What say you?

    ME: As you can read again Gene, the scripture by Jesus says

    sweareth by it,

    and by him that dwelleth in it:

    “DWELLS” NOT JUST NOW BUT IN THE PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE as long as this world stands!

    ALSO, JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, DOES NOT SITT ALL BY HIMSELF DOES HE?

    So let’s stick to the sculpture

    WHO DWELLS IN THE TEMPLE? 

    I MEAN “HIM”

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #870118
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Carmel…..the proof is how you add word , thoughts, and even change the meanings to our text.

    ME: Gene unless you are specific and produce the particulars, HOW ON EARTH AM I GOING TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, NEVER MIND ANSWERING YOU SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU, THERE ARE SO MANY ALTERATIONS 

    YOU: Anyone with any true understanding of what is written can see that,

    ME: Gene, AGAIN THERE CANNOT BE  ANY TRUE UNDERSTANDING UNLESS THERE IS ALSO, GENERALLY SPEAKING, TRUE MATURITY  OF THE INDIVIDUAL  WITH RESPECT TO THE CONTENT THAT IS WRITTEN ESPECIALLY SCRIPTURE  AND WHAT IS RELATED TO IT, I MEAN

    THE SPIRITUAL MESSAGE! GOD’S, WHO IS SPIRIT, OF WHICH

    I MADE IT VERY CLEAR IN MY POSTS.

    YOU: you bounce all over the place, adding words, changing meanings,

    ME: BUT  FOR GOD’S SAKE BE SPECIFIC SO I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE LOOKING AT MY WRITINGS IN THAT MANNER.

    You: you seem

    ME: IT IS NOT HOW I AM SEEN, BUT HOW IN THE TRUTH I AM, NO?

    YOU: unable to just stay on one point at a time.

    FROM YOUR SIDE MOST PROBABLY YOU ARE RIGHT, BUT AGAIN UNLESS YOU ARE AWARE OF MY INTENTIONS FOR DOING THIS, YOU WILL NEVER ACCEPT IT, AND UNLESS YOU ARE HUMBLE ENOUGH BE SPECIFIC AND ASK YOU REMAIN BLOCKED WITHIN YOUR CARNAL MIND, AND SUBJECT TO IT. WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    Jodi proclaims to prove scripture with scripture, FOR YOU THAT IT ISN’T BOUNCING ALL OVER THE PLACE, NEVERTHELESS

     YOU ACCEPT IT SIMPLY BECAUSE BOTH OF YOU ARE IN THE SAME BOAT! 

    FOCUSSED ONLY ON JESUS’ HUMANITY, WHICH IS ENTIRELY SATAN’S PERSPECTIVE WELL CLEAR IN

    Mark 8:33 Who turning about and seeing his disciples, threatened Peter, saying:

    Go behind me, Satan, because thou savorest not the things that are of God,

    but that are of men.

    YOU: You remind me of a person trying to get a speck out of someones eye and

    have a log in your own.

    “Bad form”. 

    I REPEAT THAT’S ONLY WITHIN YOUR IMMATURE UNDERSTANDINGS SINCE YOU KEEP IT TO YOURSELF AND NEVER BE SPECIFIC SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE PREOCCUPIED THAT THE TRUTH WILL BE REVEALED.IMO.

    Now  just read this scripture hereunder in order to UNDERSTAND what I mean regarding

    SPIRITUAL MATURITY:

    1John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be.

    We know, that, when he shall appear, 

    we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

    WHO IS THIS HIM, THAT WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870125
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..I am specific,  again, what man is “now” sitting in the “temple” of God , Sitting at the right hand of God, and being displayed as a ” GOD”?

    Simple question, just want a simple answer,  not a essay of you skipping around trying to avoid the simplicity of the question.

    Are you even able to answer that simple question? Simply?

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #870136
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Carmel…..I am specific,  again, what man is “now” sitting in the “temple” of God , Sitting at the right hand of God, and being displayed as a ” GOD”?

    ME: IN THE ABOVE Gene, YOU ARE REFERRING TO JESUS THE SON OF MAN!

    YOU FORGOT THAT JESUS SAID THAT SCRIPTURE! READ AGAIN:

    Matthew 23:2 And whosoever shall swear by temple,

    sweareth by it,

    and by “HIM” that dwelleth in it:

     

    ANSWER: WHO DWELLS IN THE TEMPLE? 

    I MEAN WHO IS “HIM” that Jesus referred to.

    Simple question, Gene, just want a simple answer,

    Are you even able to answer that simple question? Simply?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870145
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel,  yea , but for now lets talk about the ” Son of man”, that is sitting there ok?
    you have acknowledged that Jesus is a “Son of man” and , 
    is sitting in the “temple of God , in heaven “right now” .  Thats correct, he is in fact the ‘” only Son of man , “now”,  sitting there at this time, right?

    before I go on, are we in agreement so far,  please just yes or no?

    peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #870149
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel,  yea , but for now lets talk about the ” Son of man”, that is sitting there ok?

    ME: WHAT DO YOU MEAN:

    FOR NOW, LET’S TALK ABOUT THE SON OF MAN?

    Gene, UNLESS YOU, FIRST ANSWER MY QUESTION, I WILL NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING ELSE. FINE?

    never mind YES or NO!

    SO

    ANSWER: WHO DWELLS IN THE TEMPLE? 

    I MEAN WHO IS “HIM” that Jesus referred to.

     

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

    #870159
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel….I say him, that certainly do not mean me, unless used in a prophetic statement concerning “himself’. 
    Now that you have my answer,  please answer my question. Who is the “only” son of man , “now” sitting in the true temple of God, being declared and worshiped as a God ?

    Is it the ‘Son of man, ’ Jesus Christ?  Yes or no please.
    Simple question why can’t you answer it?.

    #870197
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: TELL US Mike NOW

    WHAT DID STEPHEN SEE IN THE GLORY OF GOD?

    I imagine that Stephen saw a bright and colorful radiance sitting next to Jesus.  I imagine that Stephen saw what Moses saw…

    Exodus 33

    18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

    19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence… 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

    21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

    The point I made to Berean was that Stephen was able to see Jesus, but not God.  Repeat those words to yourself:  Stephen could see Jesus, but not God.  Jesus, but not God.  Jesus, but not God.

    Carmel, why could Stephen see the person of Jesus, but not the person of God?  And doesn’t that mean that the person of Jesus is not the person of God?

    #870199
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  The one through whom God created the world was not God.
    LU: Yes He was. He just wasn’t God the Father.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the world.

    Kathi, who spoke to the forefathers through prophets?  God, right?  Who is the “he” that has spoken to us through his son?  Still God, right?  Who is the “he” that appointed the son heir of all things?  Still God, right? Who is the “he” that made the universe? Still God, right?

    Just follow the subject throughout…  God spoke in the past; God spoke in more recent times; God appointed someone; God created the world.

    There are others identified here, namely “the prophets” and “his son”.  But the teaching is that God did x, y, and z through either “the prophets” or “his son”.

    So at this point, can you and I agree that the writer is talking about one particular god, and the prophets/son through whom this particular god did certain things?

    #870200
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hey Eddie Valentino, I didn’t hear back from you.  Are we finally in agreement that the light that came into the world as a light for the Gentiles – the light about whom John bore witness in the wilderness – is the person known by the disciples as Jesus from Nazareth, who said…

    “I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.”

    and…

    “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    and…

    “While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    ?

    Notice the parallel of Jesus’ words “the light of life” and John’s words in 1:4… In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

    Cheers.

    #870201
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: So at this point, can you and I agree that the writer is talking about one particular god, and the prophets/son through whom this particular god did certain things?

    Yes, God the Father of Jesus who was not alone creating the world, specifically.

    #870218
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: The point I made to Berean was that

    Stephen was able to see Jesus, but not God. 

    Repeat those words to yourself:  Stephen could see Jesus, but not God.  Jesus, but not God.  Jesus, but not God.

    Carmel, why could Stephen see the person of Jesus, but not the person of God?  And doesn’t that mean that the person of Jesus is not the person of God?

     

    ME: Mike first and foremost, Stephen saw

    THE SON OF MAN, not just Jesus.

    Now you know what that means in those days Mike, don’t you?

    THE FACT THAT STEPHEN DECLARED SO ON EARTH! SATANIC!!!

    WHICH MEANS THAT THE SON OF MAN , A HUMAN BEING,

    IS IN ONE GLORY WITH GOD!

    THE FACT THAT THEY KILLED HIM.

    IF STEPHEN SAID THAT HE SAW ONLY GOD THEY WOULDN’T HAVE KILLED HIM MIKE!

    Read my question again:

    TELL US Mike NOW

    WHAT DID STEPHEN SEE IN THE GLORY OF GOD? Now read the scripture as well:

    Acts 7:55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven,

    saw the glory of God,

    and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

    And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and

    the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 

    THUS STEPHEN SAW

    THE GLORY OF GOD!

    JESUS Mike IS NOT ONLY INCLUDED IN THAT ONE GLORY BUT

    JESUS IS THE  ACTUAL GLORY OF GOD!

    THE FACT THAT STEPHEN HAD TO REVEAL THIS UNIQUE UNBELIEVEABLE GLORY IN

    THE SON OF MAN. Now read scriptures:

    Isaiah 40:55 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,

    and all flesh together shall see, that the mouth of the Lord hath spoken.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory,

    and the express image of his (FATHER’S) person, and

    upholding all things by the word of his (FATHER’S) power,…

     

    John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    (and we saw his glory,

    the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

    Philipians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory,

    and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon

    the throne of his glory:

     

    2Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of

    the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    That is more than enough Mike.

    NOW  ANSWER HOW COULD STEPHEN DETERMINE THAT JESUS WAS STANDING

    AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

    IF HE DIDN’T SEE GOD?

    JESUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ALL BY HIMSELF NO?:

    YOU:Exodus 33

    18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

    19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence… 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

    21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

    Mike regarding the above scripture, it seems to me that you are not that keen on the

    NEW TESTAMENT.

    Don’t you know that Jesus fulfilled the OLD TESTAMENT AND THE SCRIPTURES YOU POSTED ABOVE, DO NOT APPLY! WHY YOU MIGHT ASK?

    Mike, FROM JESUS’ REDEMPTION GOD THE FATHER IS IN THE POSITION TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO WHOM HE PLEASES, SIMPLY AS  JESUS ESTABLISHED ALL ANEW

    BETWEEN GOD THE FATHER AND HUMANITY,

    THE FACT THAT HE IS SOVEREIGN OVER ALL AND IN ONE FULL GLORY AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

    NOW HERE THIS WHETHER YOU BELIVE IT OR NOT,

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE

    IDENTICAL IN EVERY SENSE!

    Hebrews 1:3Who being the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory,

    and the EXPRESS IMAGE of his (FATHER’S) person, and

    upholding all things by the word of his (FATHER’S) power,…

     

    John14:8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him:

    Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    THE MAIN REASON THAT THE FATHER NEVER REVEALED HIMSELF BEFORE WAS SIMPLY IN ORDER TO ALLOW HIS SON TO DO SO,

    IN HIMSELF

    JESUS CHRIST. 

    John8:54 Jesus answered:

    If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God.

    REFLECT MIKE ON THE ABOVE STATEMENT FROM JESUS!

    JESUS REFERRED TO HIS ACTUAL HUMAN PERSON, AND HE MEANT THAT AS A HUMAN PERSON

    GOD THE FATHER GLORIFIES HIM, HOW? OBVIOUS

    Jesus is THE IMAGE of the invisible God! Colossians 1:15

     55And you have not known him, but I know him.

    And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you,

    a liar.

    WHY A LIAR?

    But I do know him, and

    do keep his word. 

    DID YOU GET THIS Mike?

    KEEP:5083 tēréō (from tēros, “a guard”) – properly, maintain (preserve);

    JESUS DECLARED THAT HE GUARDS, PRESERVES, AND MAINTAINS THE FATHER’S WORD!

    PRACTICALLY HE CONFIRMED THAT HE IS

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD.

    THE FACT ALSO THAT THE FATHER WAS EMBODIED IN HIS SON IN ONE GLORY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    JESUS CHRIST WAS/IS THE EMODIMENT OF GOD 

    THE BEGINNING BEFORE ALL  Colossians 1:17, Micah 5:2

    THE FACT THAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870219
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……Try dealing with that, maze of twists and turns. LOL.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

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