John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,301 through 21,320 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #867137
    Lulu
    Participant

    Revelation 19:

    I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

    king of kings and lord of lords.    (This is Jesus) hence the Word is Jesus also John 1 teaches that.  

    #867144
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus is his name. He is Jesus.

    The Word of God is his name. He is the Word of God.

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    #867145
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Word became flesh

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    His name is Jesus so he is Jesus.

    His name is the Word of God so he is the Word of God.

    #867146
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

     

    #867147
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……so you believe in a contradiction in scriptures,  because this is what the Old Testement says ,

    Isa 44:24…..thus says the LORD, thy redeemer; and he that formed you (Israel)  from the womb, I AM THE LORD, that makes “ALL THINGS” ; that streaches forth the heavens “ALONE”;  that spreads abroad the earth by “MYSELF” ; 

    Seems you have a contradiction, Proclaimer  between the Old Testement and the New Testement.

    Does the word “alone”,  and by “myself” ,  have any kind of meaning to you,  to me if a person says he did something ““alone” and by “himself”,   that means no one else was involved.  But I am sure you will wiggle around those words of God himself, as you do others. 

    You people believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth,  but Jesus believed he was a product of mankindm saying over 80 times,  he was a, Son (product of) Man,  but you call him a liar, saying  he was a preexisting being of somekind,  of which you have never explained exactly what that was.

    Jesus was and is a 100% product of mankind, always was and always will be, not one ounce of difference ,  and as he is so are we, who have the Spirit of the Living God in  us, Given to us by Almighty God our Father  himself,  his seed abides in us just as it abided in Our brother Jesus.

    The mediator between God and “men’ is the “MAN” Jesus, not any “preexisting” being of anykind.  

    Why not investigate the translations given espically the Greek word  (dia) as it can be applied in many different ways,   you have to be very careful with the wording of the New Teatament, if it dosen’t meet the wording of the Old Testement, then the assumption of error should be on the New Testements side, as Paul said  concerning the Berean’s , that compared what they were hearing with the Old Testement writings, If it dosen’t match up,  it should be held in suspect.

    The disagreement with scriptures  lies on your side not our side,  we preach what both are truly saying, so we are able to see the truth, you people on the other hand ignore many, many scripture to try to force you false beliefs on each other.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

     

     

     

     

    #867148
    Ed J
    Participant

    You talk about being honest, OK, let’s be honest , tell the truth you preach Jesus as the one God created everything through, for the purpose to try to establish him as a preexistingbeing right?

    Now for the KO. You talk about being honest Gene, but in reality, I only
    have to quote scripture and you get all riled up about what it is saying.
     
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible
    and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.
    All things were created through Him and for Him.…
     
    Boom!

    Hi T8,

    “firstborn over all creation” does not mean Jesus was
    a created being who was created first as Mike believes.
    He simple means instead Jesus is in charge over creation.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #867150
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The firstborn is the literal firstborn unless they lose that status and its given to another. Analyse the term first born. Otherwise a term like supreme or primary could be used to describe what you are saying if being the first doesn’t matter.

    Imagine using the term second born son and saying it doesn’t mean the second born son?

    And did I imply first created? No. I said first BORN which is written.

    #867151
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer……so you believe in a contradiction in scriptures,  because this is what the Old Testement says

    I realise you must see scriptures as contradictory, but I do not see contradiction. There is no contradiction in truth Gene.

    If your theology contains contradiction, then you are not understanding scripture. If you have to ignore a whole set of scriptures because you interpret others as contradictory, then you have the wrong understanding.

    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    #867152
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, did God create you?

    Yes / No

    Another opportunity folks to see how Gene is not honest enough to answer the question. Is it any wonder then that he teaches these false conclusions.

    #867153
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    Isa 44:24…..thus says the LORD, thy redeemer; and he that formed you (Israel)  from the womb, I AM THE LORD, that makes “ALL THINGS” ; that streaches forth the heavens “ALONE”;  that spreads abroad the earth by “MYSELF” ;

    Gene

    You say yourself that the word of God (what he says, what he said in the past) is one with itself
    isn’t it true that you believe that?
    And well know that Jesus, the Son of God, named “The Word of God, although he is a person distinct from the Father, IS ONE WITH THE FATHER ALWAYS.
    WHEN YOU READ IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT GOD CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE SON (THE WORD) WAS NOT PRESENT FOR THIS CREATIVE WORK BECAUSE HE IS ONE WITH HIS FATHER ….
    THE CREATION OF THE FATHER BY THE SON WHO IS ONE WITH THE FATHER, WHO IS THE PERFECT REFLECTION OF “HIMSELF” (see Hebrews 1: 3 and Colossians 1:15) IS THEREFORE
    IN PERFECT AGREEMENT WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT.

    #867154
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: You people believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth,  but Jesus believed he was a product of mankind saying over 80 times,

    he was a Son (product of) Man,

    ME; Gene, THE ABOVE IS ONLY YOUR CARNAL UNDERSTANDING and

    lies

    JESUS NEVER USED THE TERM AND SAID

    A SON OF MAN BUT

    THE SON OF MAN, UNIQUE, ONE OF A KIND.

    Now, the title of

    THE SON of man

    DOES NOT IN ANYWAY DECLARE AND ASSERT THAT 

    JESUS IS A PRODUCT OF MAN AS YOU, THE FOUNDATION OF LIES, ALL THE TIME CORRUPTLY CLAIM, AND 

    IGNORE THE PURE TRUTH THAT

    JESUS WAS THE PRODUCT

    OF THE HOLY GHOST

    NOT OF MAN.

    MATTHEW 1:18……. she was found with child,

    of the Holy Ghost.

    MATTHEW 1:20…..that which is conceived in her,

    is of the Holy Ghost.

     

    HOW ON EARTH Gene, JESUS COULD BE

    THE SON AND THE  PRODUCT OF MAN, WHEN 

    HIS FATHER WAS NOT

    A MAN!!!

    JESUS WAS BOTH THE SON OF GOD, THE PRODUCT OF GOD,

    OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    ATTRIBUTED TO GOD, ALLOCATED to be

    the embodiment of GOD, PURPOSELY UNIQUE

    THE CARRIER OF GOD, and also

    THE SON OF GOD, THE PRODUCT OF GOD, FURNISHED BY

    GOD THE FATHER, ATTENTION GENE, BUT

    ATTRIBUTED TO HUMANITY,

    ALLOCATED PURPOSELY TO BE

    THEIR REDEEMER, as

    A HUMAN IN FLESH.

    both in all things like humans and in all things different from humans!!!

     A PERFECT PARADOX

    YOU:but you call him a liar,

    ME: NO Gene, YOU ARE A LIAR WITH RESPECT TO THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE.

    YOU:saying  he was a preexisting being of somekind,  of which you have never explained exactly what that was.

    ME: No Gene IT IS YOU WHO IGNORE ALL SCRIPTURE WHICH PROCLAIMS BOTH

    JESUS’PRE-EXISTENCE, AND

    HIS DIVINITY.

    YOU: Jesus was and is a 100% product of mankind, always was and always will be, not one ounce of difference ,  and as he is so are we,

    Gene, WAS YOUR MOTHER

    CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY GHOST

    BY ANY CHANCE? 

    YOU: who have the Spirit of the Living God in us,

    Given to us by Almighty God our Father himself,

    ME: Gene ALMIGHTY GOD IS NO OUR FATHER AS 

    HUMANS IN FLESH!

    ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER AS

    HUMANS IN FLESH IS 

    JESUS CHRIST  ASSERTED IN

    Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us,

    and a son is given to us,(PURPOSELY TO BE

    OUR FATHER IN FLESH! John17:2, John 20:17)

    and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,(unique IN FLESH)

    the Father of the world to come,

    the Prince of Peace.

    YOU: his seed abides in us just as it abided in Our brother Jesus.

    ME, GOD’S SEED IS “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN Gene,  READ:

    1Peter 1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed,

    but incorruptible,

    by THE WORD of God

    who liveth and remaineth forever.

    James 1:21 …..with meekness receive

    THE ENGRAFTED WORD,

    which is able to save your souls. 

    Gene do you know WHAT IT MEANS THE WORD

    ENGRAFTED???

    I tell you READ:

    John1:1 1IN the beginning was the Word, and

    the Word was with God, and

    the Word was God. 

    YOU: The mediator between God and “men’ is the “MAN” Jesus, not any “preexisting” being of any kind.

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:( WHEN IT COMES TO HUMANITY)

    but God is one. ( both as a HUMAN AND GOD in

     THE GODMAN JESUS)

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #867155
    Lulu
    Participant

    Is this a ordinary man?

    Jesus claims to exist before Abraham;

    John 8:58, KJV: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58, NASB: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

    Are men virgin born? The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary .. Jesus is not just a man.  He identified with men taking on flesh and being born a man but he was God, and filled with the Holy Spirit at birth.   He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

     

    #867156
    Lulu
    Participant

    17In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ. 18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.…

    Matthew

     

    #867157
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes Lulu. This is what scripture says and we either believe it or not.

    Some people here do not believe these. They claim to be Christian or teachers, but they seem to deny many things that are clearly written for us. I do not know why they do that. Seems idiotic to teach falsely because there is no good reward for doing that.

    #867159
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lulu…..I feel you may be new in the Faith, or have recieved wrong information, from main stream Christian dogmas.  But I would ask you to do a honest word search, on the word “before”  please.

    You will find that word in the Greek , does not imply Jesus existed before Abraham,  but is before him in “importance”.  You must understand the Jewish people alway used Abraham as there source of importance to God as a people.  That is why John the Baptist said to them God could raise up these stones as childern unto Abraham if he wanted to.  

    Their idenity with Abraham was a real stumbling block for them,  and it was preventing them from accepting Jesus and what he was telling them, so that is why Jesus told them, he was (before) or,  “more important” then ABRAHAM.   Please do an honest study of that word “before” in the Greek as it was written. 

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #867160
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant
    • To all……Words are important, because they relay the meaning of what is said, to us all. The problem that most bible readers do not understand that there are many grammatical errors in our present translations, because during the translations to English from Greek, there are in some cases 10- 20 different grammatical errors, the scholar WILL’S , FOUND OVER 20,000  grammatical errors in our present  english texts.

    It is very important, that we do as Paul said to the Berean’s,  check the scriptures to see if what was being told them was true or not.  you must also remember the “only” scriptures they had was the OLD TESTEMENT, because the New Testements, hadn’t been written yet. SO if what is written in the New, dosen’t agree with the Old Testement, it is most likely Misunderstood. Because scripture written in the Old Testement, can not be broken. But because the old has been translated into Greek and the to English there can still be some errors, but less because we have today Actual Hebrew translators, who are able to translate from the “original” text, which was very carefully translated over and over by the scribes. 

    So I believe If what you read or hear does not  agree with the Hebrew text or it simply is not true, or at best in suspect. IMO

    Peace and love to all and yours………gene

    #867165
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What you are saying Gene is that scriptures that disagree with your view and agree with us must be translated incorrectly because you are right. Anyone with a bit of sense can see how your conclusions come from your own mind or spirit. There is much proof for this, but your recent arguments about free will demonstrate this perfectly. You say we have no free will because if we did, then God couldn’t predict anything. But you forget that God is not subject to time. He can see everything. He is higher than everyone and everything. He is subject to nothing but himself. Your arguments are easily disproven. I can do it with one arm tied behind my back.

    #867167
    Lulu
    Participant

    Strong’s Concordance
    prin: before
    Original Word: πρίν
    Part of Speech: Adverb
    Transliteration: prin
    Phonetic Spelling: (prin)
    Definition: before
    Usage: formerly, before.NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    a prim. adverb akin to pro
    Definition
    before
    NASB Translation
    before (13).

    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 4250: πρίν

    πρίν ((according to Curtius, § 380 comparitive προιον, προιν, πρίν)), as in Greek writings from Homer down:1. an adverb previously,formerly (cf. πάλαι, 1): 3Macc. 5:28 3Macc. 6:4, 31; but never so in the N. T.

    2. with the force of a conjunction, before, before that: with an accusative and aorist infinitive of things past (cf. Winers Grammar, § 44, 6 at the end; Buttmann, § 142, 3); πρίν Ἀβραάμ γενέσθαι, before Abraham existed, came into being, John 8:58; also πρίν ἤ (cf. Meyer on Matthew 1:18), Matthew 1:18; (Acts 7:2); with an aorist infinitive haying the force of the Latin future perfect, of things future (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 332 (311)): πρίν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, before the cock shall have crowed, Matthew 26:34, 75; Mark 14:72; Luke 22:61; add, John 4:49; John 14:29; also πρίν ἤ, Mark 14:30; Acts 2:20 (where L T Tr WH text omit ἤ); πρίν ἤ, preceded by a negative sentence (Buttmann, § 139, 35), with the aorist subjunctive having the force of a future perfect in Latin (Buttmann, 231 (199)), Luke 2:26 (R G L T Tr marginal reading, but WH brackets ἤ), and R G in Luke 22:34; πρίν ἤ, followed by the optative of a thing as entertained in thought, Acts 25:16 (Winers Grammar, 297 (279); Buttmann, 230 (198)). Cf. Matthiae, § 522, 2, p. 1201f; Alexander Buttmann (1873) Gram. § 139, 41; Klotz ad Devar. ii. 2, p. 720ff; Winers Grammar (and Buttmann), as above.

     

    #867168
    Lulu
    Participant

    before Abraham existed, came into being, John 8:58; also πρίν ἤ (cf. Meyer on Matthew)

    #867170
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Lulu,

    Are you new to this site?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

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