John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,461 through 20,480 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #864235
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You have so many posts just to me, it seems you “need me” to answer you, ha. (its a joke no need to debate it 🙂 )

    You said:

    Mike: These claims are so very weak that they don’t even deserve a response.

    LU: In other words, you can’t debate that.

    Mike: As if my son somehow GAVE me the power and authority to be a father or create him.

    LU: Are you a father in the biological sense apart from your son? If not, then your son’s existence did give you the calling of being a biological father and therefore being an biological father “authority” over your child. Apart from Cody, you are not a biological father or a biological father authority over anyone (unless you have other biological children). Face the facts.

    Mike: Hopefully you have at least learned to not go around claiming that the Father NEEDS Jesus to do anything, while at the same time retaining Jesus’ own teaching that he can do nothing apart from the Father.

    LU: The Father needs the Son to be called “Father” for starters.

    Mike, here is the million dollar question…

    Do you NEED JESUS?

    #864238
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding this:

    LU: You can pray directly to Jesus…He is YHVH our Righteousness…  It’s ok.
    Mike: It’s also apparently okay to pray directly to the city of Jerusalem, who is also YHVH our Righteousness.

    Jeremiah 33:16

    In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely, and this is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

    I am perfectly aware that Jerusalem is called YHVH our Righteousness after Jesus whose name is YHVH our Righteousness. There is a reason the city is named after Jesus. It is the city of God. The cities named after great people is not a new thing, Mike. It is rather foolish to not distinguish the person from the city named after them. Of course you would not pray directly to the city but you can pray directly to the one the city of God is named after…Jesus.

    Maybe this will help: https://www.msn.com/en-in/travel/news/42-places-named-after-people/ss-AADizGx#image=12

    #864239
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You quoted this:

    “The arm of the Lord” is an idiom for “God’s great power” (as exemplified through Jesus’ miraculous signs). This response of unbelief is interpreted by the author as a fulfillment of the prophetic words of Isaiah (Isa 53:1). The phrase ὁ βραχίων κυρίου (Jo braciwn kuriou) is a figurative reference to God’s activity and power which has been revealed in the sign-miracles which Jesus has performed (compare the previous verse).

    Jesus IS the God the Father’s “Right Hand Man” and apart from Jesus, God is not a father, a creator, a redeemer, a savior, a shepherd, etc. That is not because the Father is not powerful, it’s because the Father chooses to display his power through the Son’s own power who can do anything the Father can do, btw. In other words, if the Father can do it, the Son can do it by the Son’s own strength and ability. The Father and the Son have the same strength and ability because they have the same essence, perfect, eternal essence.

    #864240
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    LU: Shoot me, I don’t care… The apostles prayed to YHVH, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…
    And do all three of those entities comprise ONE SINGULAR “Sovereign Lord” in your doctrine?

    The prayer was to the Sovereign LORD (YHVH) and all three members, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the fullness of the one Sovereign LORD (YHVH).

    #864241
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: No they don’t. That is a poor translation…

    I used to think that too but reading the early church father’s writings, they quote it as the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” from what I remember so I go by that.

    That doesn’t imply a continual slaying, Mike. I take it as a future event, the Son would become incarnate and be offered as the sacrifice for the sins of the world in the case the world needed redemption. In other words, the payment was in the bank before man could even chose to sin if indeed he so chose that path. God had the answer for whatever man decided.

    #864243
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Oh geez…

    regarding your post:

    LU:  Do you think that a member of a unity cannot serve that unity of which they are a member of? A pastor is a member of the body of Christ, a unity called the church. The pastor also serves the body of Christ, the unity of which he is a member of. This is simple.

    Simple?  More like “simple-minded”. Will you really claim that Pastor Fred is the holy servant of Pastor Fred?  Come on now.   Kathi, you are lost in your own imagination, and I pray that the holy servant of the Sovereign Lord (singular) who created all things will somehow lead you to truth.

    Do you need the unity in the example to also be the name of the servant of the unity for you to understand how YHVH our Righteousness can be the servant to YHVH? How about this: Israel was the servant to Israel as a father.

    #864245
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    LU. You teach against eternal life.

    #864256
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    Is eternal life knowing the only true God apart from Jesus??

    Or, is eternal life knowing the only true God AND Jesus?

    You can’t know the only true God apart from Jesus. Therefore knowing the only true God is dependent on knowing Jesus. There is a connection that to have one, you must also have the other. That is two persons to know in order to have eternal life. One is our one God, the Father and the other is our one Lord, Jesus Christ. Jehovah is both God of gods and Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords part.

    #864304
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Bump for t8

    #864323
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Mike,

    YOU: Ah, I should have used the title to better make my point – since “God” is a title.  So David was “The King of Israel”.

    Solomon was David’s son. NO MIKE WE ARE USING AS YOU SAID

    THE TITLE!

    DAVID IS A NAME NOT A TITLE! So

    SOLOMON WAS THE KING’S SON!

    YOU: Was Solomon  “the son of the King of Israel”?

    ME: NO MIKE AGAIN.

    YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID WITH RESPECT TO OUR POINT:

    WAS SOLOMON THE SON OF THE KING?

    YOU: Or “King of Israel the Son”?  “Son of the King”?  Or “King the Son”?  Which one?

    ME: Now, David was still alive when Solomon became king, and Israel had

    KING THE FATHER, and

    KING THE SON. more PROPER IS

    KING DAVID, THE FATHER.

    KING SOLOMON, THE SON.

    BUT THEIR NAMES DOESN’T COUNT, IN OUR CASE, ONLY THE TITLE AS YOU SAID!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864326
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME: JESUS IS THE ACTUAL HEART OF GOD!

    YOU: Scripture, please?

    ME: Jesus is

    “THE WORD” of God, MADE FLESH!

    SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 15:18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth, (WORDS)

    come forth from the heart,

    and those things defile a man.

    NOT MUCH OF WISDOM MIKE YOU REQUIRE TO PERCEIVE THAT 

    GOD’S WORD (JESUS) COMES FROM HIS HEART!

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    John1:18 No man hath seen God at any time:

    the only begotten Son who is in

    the Bosom(HEART)  of the Father, he hath declared him. (BY HIS MOUTH)

    I BET YOUR SON ALSO IS MIKE! OF WHICH I DON’T HAVE ANY DOUBT!

    MINE ARE!

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    John 17:21 That they all may be one,

    as thou, Father, in me, (IN MY HEART)

    and I in thee; (IN YOUR HEART)

    that they also may be one in us: (ALL THE ENTIRE HEARTS IN JESUS and

    JESUS IN ALL HUMAN HEARTS,

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, and ALL FOR HIM)

    that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    (IN THEIR HEART)

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.

    THE WORDS (THE GOSPEL, WHICH CAME OUT FROM MY HEART, 

    THE FATHER’S)

     that I have spoken to you

    are spirit and life.

    MIKE, THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS

    THE HEART, where “THE WORD” the Son of Man lives,

    OUR ETERNAL LIFE

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    John1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men. 

    Attention Mike:

    as much as 

    the life of

    THE SOUL/HEART/MIND is

    THE HOLY GHOST WHERE THE FATHER’S SPIRIT LIVES.

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    1John5:7And there are Three who give testimony in heaven,

    the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

    And these three are one.

    ( IN JESUS CHRIST, GODMAN)

    8And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

    (IN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, THE CHURCH, CHRIST’S BODY, WHERE CHRIST,

    THE SOUL OF GOD, IS THE HEAD OF, and THE HEAD, THE SPIRIT,

    OF CHRIST IS GOD)

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you

    a new heart,(“THE WORD”) and put a new spirit (THE HOLY GHOST)within you:

    and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a

    heart of flesh.( “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, on His resurrection)

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    `Jeremiah  32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me all days :

    32:41 And I will rejoice over them,

    when I shall do them(THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE) good: and I will plant( ESTABLISH) them in this (EMBODIMENT) land in TRUTH, (JESUS CHRIST) with

    my WHOLE heart, ( “THE WORD”)  and with ALL my soul.(THE HOLY GHOST) IN

    JESUS CHRIST   ALL IN HIM….

    DO YOU WANT MORE SCRIPTURES MIKE?

    NO, I JUST REMEMBERED YOU DON’T LIKE 

    TOO LONG POSTS.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    THE SERVANT!

    #864329
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME: ACCORDING TO YOU MIKE, THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!

    John 16:15 All things
    whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that
    he shall RECEIVE of me……

    WHO GAVE MIKE?

    JESUS!
    WHO RECEIVED ALL THINGS MIKE?

    THE FATHER!
    WHO IS GREATER MIKE?

    JESUS!

    YOU: Wait a minute… you think that in John 16, Jesus is talking about the Father asking him for something, and Jesus giving it?  Seriously?  Surely you realize that Jesus is talking about his DISCIPLES asking, and Jesus giving it to them, right?  But then, according to your logic, that makes Jesus OUR servant! ??????????????

    SCRIPTURE:

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now.

    13But when he, (THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE FATHER) the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he(THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE FATHER) shall not speak of himself:

    but what things soever he shall hear,(FROM YOU HEART) he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he(THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE FATHER) shall show you.

    14He (THE HOLY GHOST, FOR THE FATHER) shall glorify me:(JESUS CHRIST THE SERVANT)

    because he (THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE FATHER)shall receive of mine (JESUS’ THE SERVANT)

    and shall shew it to you.

    15All things whatsoever

    the Father hath are mine.

    Therefore I said that he (THE HOLY GHOST FOR THE FATHER)

    shall receive of me (JESUS CHRIST THE SERVANT)

    and shew it to you.

     

    ME: ACCORDING TO YOU MIKE, THE ONE WHO GIVES IS GREATER!

    (who gave Mike, JESUS, who received Mike, THE FATHER,
    who is greater Mike?

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE SERVANT ACCORDING TO YOU

    POOR MIKE!)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    THE GIVER OF ALL

    FOR HIS OWN KINGDOM

    #864330
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

     

    ME: Notice what Jesus said;

    “I and the Father are one.”
    Does that sound familiar? Jesus is not simply stating that He and the Father are of the same essence, although that is true. Jesus is not simply stating that He is God, although that is true.

    The reason the Jews wanted to stone Him on the spot and the reason why the Jews were so offended is simple:

    Jesus said that

    He is as much
    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4 as YHWH is
    the “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4.

    YOU: So in your mind, Jesus is actually saying that the Son and the Father are literally one?  So in essence, the Father IS the Son, and the Son IS the Father?  Come on, man.  But then it gets worse…

    I DON’T BLAME YOU MIKE!

    John 17:21-22

    …that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one…

    Now the Father IS the Son… who IS all of the disciples… who also ARE the Father Himself, etc.  😎  The Father, the Son, and Jesus’ disciples are all the same exact “one-God” of Deuteronomy 6:4? 

    Carmel, I don’t know how or when you allowed yourself to veer so far from scriptural truth, but the majority of the things you post are simply nonsensical to a rational mind. 

    PERFECT MIKE

    (I know, I know… it’s because my mind is carnal and wicked and mad, right?)

    WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AND HUMANS CARNAL MIND MIKE WHEN ALL BECOME DUST? 

    WHAT WILL YOU AND ALL SOULS RECEIVE INSTEAD?

    I TELL YOU MIKE!

    WHEN ALL IS PERFECT AT THE VERY END!

    ALL SPIRITS

    ALL SOULS and 

    ALL FLESH simply receive

    YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS MIKE IT’S

    YOUR FAVOURITE!

    THE SERVANT JESUS 

    IN HIS TOTALLITY

    HE EMPTIES HIMSELF IN ALL THE ENTIRE CREATION WHICH ALSO INCLUDES 

    GOD THE FATHER EMBODIED IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    THERE WILL BE

    ONE CHRIST IN ALL

    1 John3:2 Dearly beloved,

    we are now the sons of God:( by the servant Jesus)

    and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when

    he shall appear we shall be like to him:(THROUGHOUT SERVANTS TO EACH OTHER ONE BODY as much as my little finger serves me, in the same way, MY HEAD SERVES ME, and so on MIKE

    ONE KINGDOM OF THE SON, THE SERVANT)

    because we shall see him as he is. ( GODMAN as much as we will be GODMEN)

    3And every one that hath this hope in him (THE SERVANT)

    sanctifieth himself,

    as he also is holy.

    1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

    YAHWEH MIKE, 

    GET THIS INTO YOUR RATIONAL MIND ON THE VERY LAST DAY OF THE LORD. THE SERVANT!

    SERVES THE FATHER FOR THE LAST TIME AND FURNISHES,

    GIVES 

    THE FATHER HIS KINGDOM by which kingdom

    THE FATHER

    EMBODIED IN JESUS CHRIST

    BECOMES 

    THE SERVANT OF ALL 

    ALL IN ALL

    WHO GAVE MIKE ALL TO THE FATHER!

    JESUS

    WHO IS GREATER according to you:

    JESUS CHRIST BUT AS

    YAHWEH in the body of

    JESUS the giver!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864331
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel:  27For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child [SERVANT] Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, 28To do what thy hand and thy counsel decreed to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants that with all confidence they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thy hand to cures and signs and wonders, to be done by the name of thy holy Son [SERVANT], Jesus.
    It’s clear the KJV is trying hard to NOT label Jesus as a SERVANT of his and our God, you know, the one they prayed to… the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  I would suggest that you try a better translation of that passage.  Or you could even use the same KJV translation, but just look at how the same word is translated in different passages – where the translators are not trying to avoid calling someone a servant.  Here’s one of them…

    Matthew 12:15-18 KJV

    But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen…
    It is the same Greek word in the above verse, yet the KJV translators render it as “servant”, not “child” or “son”.  Why do you suppose that is, Carmel?  But this one shows their bias even more clearly…

    Acts 4:25 KJV

    Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
    That one is the same Greek word – within the SAME EXACT PRAYER!  😁  So why would the KJV translators render the word as “servant” when it refers to King David, but then go out of their way to NOT render it as “servant” in the same exact passage when it spoke of Jesus?

    Like I said… try a better translation of that prayer.  So let’s begin again…

    The apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?
    The apostles were NOT praying to Jesus – which means Jesus is NOT the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.
    The apostles identified Jesus as the holy servant OF the one to whom they prayed, ie: the holy servant OF God the Creator of all things.

    End of story.

    Hi Mike,

    Please refer to my last posts

    IT’S ALL THERE FOR YOUR CARNAL RATIONAL MIND!

    BUT TO REMIND YOU!

    ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SIMPLY 

    KEEP YOUR RATIONAL MIND

    DEAD! 

    SO THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS ALL MY HIMSELF, 

    WITH HIS SPIRITUAL MIND

    HE IS THE SERVANT THIS TIME 

    HE IS SERVING JESUS CHRIST  John16:12-15

    IT IS HIS TASK 

    THROUGH OUR MOST BLESSED MOTHER MARY

    TO MAKE YOU ANOTHER

    JESUS

    AS SHE 2000 years ago ALREADY DID ALL HUMANITY EMBODIED

    IN JESUS BY

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike, here is the million dollar question…

    Do you NEED JESUS?

    No.  Jesus is required for eternal salvation.  Do I NEED eternal salvation?  No.  But since I have a dim hope for eternal salvation, yes, I need Jesus to attain that goal.  Why?  Because no one can come to the Father by any other means.  Why?  Because the Father has established it that way.  He didn’t have to establish it that way, as we can learn from Jesus himself…

    Matthew 26

    39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

    42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

    See?  Even Jesus knew that his and our God COULD HAVE achieved His goal many different ways.  The way God chose was to have the beginning of His creation be His sacrificial lamb for us… and the door through which we must enter to get to our God.

    Which brings up another point you apparently never consider.  If Jesus IS God, they why come through him to get TO God?  Haven’t we already arrived AT God just by getting to Jesus?  It’s like saying you can have everlasting life if you touch a certain golden doorknob.  There are only two of them in existence.  One is hidden deep inside this dangerous and treacherous cave… and the other is on the door leading into the cave!  Who in their right mind would risk life and limb to journey deep into the dangerous cave when they can just touch the doorknob that’s on the door to the cave and receive the very same benefit ?  🤣😂

    So I need Jesus BECAUSE our and Jesus’ God chose it to be that way.  It wasn’t Jesus’ choice to be the door.  It was his choice, however, to align his lesser will with the greater will of his and our Ultimate Master, YHVH.

    Now, back to YOUR million dollar question that you keep trying to hem and haw around, by coming up with weak arguments like my son granted me the power to become a father.  🙄

    Is it true that Jesus can do nothing without his and our Father and God?  YES or NO, please.

    Is it true that our Father and God can do nothing without his servant Jesus?  YES or NO, please.

     

    #864371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  I am perfectly aware that Jerusalem is called YHVH our Righteousness after Jesus whose name is YHVH our Righteousness.

    I wasn’t aware that Jerusalem was named after Jesus.  Where can I read about that in scripture?

    #864372
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Is that all you need Jesus for…your salvation? Did he not create you? Can you defeat satan without Jesus? Can you have the Holy Spirit within you apart from Jesus? Can you be part of the church apart from Jesus? Are you even held together apart from Jesus?

    Btw, Jerusalem is where Jesus became our righteousness, it is where he died and rose again and it is where he will rule from. Jesus is named “YHVH our Righteousness” so is Jerusalem. It’s not hard to associate the city to the person of the same name.

    #864373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  …the Father chooses to display his power through the Son’s own power who can do anything the Father can do, btw. In other words, if the Father can do it, the Son can do it by the Son’s own strength and ability. The Father and the Son have the same strength and ability because they have the same essence, perfect, eternal essence.

    What?  Are you even aware that your claims contradict Jesus’ own claims?  Here are just four examples…

    John 5:30 
    I cannot do anything on my own…

    John 14:28

    …the Father is greater than I.

    Mark 13:32

    But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Mark 10:40

    but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant…

    All four of them directly contradict your claims.  And there are many more.

     

    #864374
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Which brings up another point you apparently never consider.  If Jesus IS God, they why come through him to get TO God?  Haven’t we already arrived AT God just by getting to Jesus?  It’s like saying you can have everlasting life if you touch a certain golden doorknob.  There are only two of them in existence.  One is hidden deep inside this dangerous and treacherous cave… and the other is on the door leading into the cave!  Who in their right mind would risk life and limb to journey deep into the dangerous cave when they can just touch the doorknob that’s on the door to the cave and receive the very same benefit ?

    You don’t have eternal life unless you have “both doorknobs”(as you say), the Father and the Son.

    You asked:

    Is it true that Jesus can do nothing without his and our Father and God? YES or NO, please.

    Is it true that our Father and God can do nothing without his servant Jesus? YES or NO, please.

    My answers:

    Yes, it is true that Jesus can do nothing without his and our Father and God.

    Yes, it is true that our Father and God can do nothing without his servant Jesus.

    #864375
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The prayer was to the Sovereign LORD (YHVH) and all three members, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the fullness of the one Sovereign LORD (YHVH).

    Remember when you used to claim that Jesus was the “Lord of lords” part of Jehovah, and the Father was the “God of gods” part?  You were pushing a binity Godhead back in those days.  I see you’re now realigning yourself with the Trinitarians again.  Interesting.  But okay, here’s a passage from a 3000 year old Hindu Bible…

    ‘O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.’ The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, becoming manifest to him, replied, ‘Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.’

    That pretty much fits your understanding of Jehovah (and as many people already know, the entire idea of the God of the Hebrews being a Trinity came from the hundreds of pagan cultures who all already had their own trinity godheads).  Anyway, imagine yourself praying to his Hindu Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva…

    God, please grant me this thing I want through your holy servant Vishnu.

    Would you do that? Can you not see that if Vishnu is a PART OF “the SINGLE being” that you are praying to, he cannot also be the servant OF the SINGLE BEING of which he is a part?  Likewise, the apostles certainly weren’t praying TO Jesus, THROUGH his holy servant Jesus.

    Back in the day, you and I really challenged each other to delve deeper into scripture.  You called it iron sharpening iron, and we were both able to seek out a greater understanding of the Bible through our disagreements.  What happened?  Nowadays you don’t seem interested in actual scripture anymore.  I’m still arguing from scripture, but you’re out there in new age enlightenment land, just making up doctrines as you go, and changing them whenever it suits your purpose.  🤔  And what’s worse, few of these doctrines seemed to be based on anything having to do with scriptures.  The ones that do involve what clearly seems to be an intentional misinterpretation of them.

    So please, in as few words as possible, help me to understand your latest doctrine…

    Do you believe Jehovah is ONE SINGLE God made up of three different persons – each with their own minds and their own wills?  Or do you believe Jehovah is THREE DIFFERENT Almighty Gods who work together in unity?  Or other?

Viewing 20 posts - 20,461 through 20,480 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account