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Quote (Artizan007 @ May 22 2006,14:43) Will do, One thing, I have noticed in Romans how often the word spirit is used but is capitalised when I feel it should be a lower case s… different translations have different capitalisation as well. Romans 8 is a classic example of this…
Will get back to you when i have done some reading.
Gosh this is a lifetime of work ahead eh… it is a joy but so often when you think you have it all tied up you find another scripture that opens another avenue.
Hi a7,
Can you give me some examples of this in Romans?Hi NH,
I will do so, just got to finish a history paper on early church persecution that is due tomorrow. I will be in touch soon. Hope you have a good weekend.
Hi A7,
Satan's very effective good cop-bad cop strategy.
Constantine's takeover was, by far, the worst and most destructive influence on the church in my view.Have a nice weekend
Hi Malcolm,
How do you view the Holy Spirit?
You seem to say, like the trinitarians, that the Spirit is separate from God Himself.
You seem to say the Holy Spirit is the natural life spirit of Jesus Christ.
Thus you say the Holy Spirit AND God lived in Jesus.
You seem to then ascribe the work done through Christ to God and not the Spirit.Yet you say Christ worked in power before his baptism as a child in the temple.This is confusing.
So who is the Spirit of God? His Spirit? My Spirit?The Spirit of Christ? The Spirit of Glory? The Spirt of grace? the Spirit of truth? The Spirit of life?
Are these all different ?
It makes it hard to read Rom 8 if so.
That seems to make it very different for us and we cannot follow Jesus.Hi,
A finger is a vital part of our body. It is only useful if it always remains in direct connection with that body. A finger can very well serve our mind. It is the ultimate unique universal servant. Many of our tasks we entrust to our fingers. It can touch and feel. It is adept and precise. It can work with other fingers to grip and twist and can do far more than a toe. It is small and can reach through into areas we cannot even see but then transmit that information back through nerves quite accurately. It holds tools and implements that we can work or feed ourselves by. It can assist in shaving and washing ourselves and others. It is used to communicate with others by shaking hands and waving and wagging and pointing and writing and typing.The Spirit is the finger of God.
Hi Kenrch,
We all have A spirit that gives us life. God blew into the nostrils of the man of dust and he became a living being. When we die the spirit returns to God who gave it. It is that spark of life from the breath of God.That breath gives life.
God is spirit. His being is invisble spirit. God is eternal life and cannot die. Since he is the original source of all life then He does not have a spirit like ours. Our spirit derives our natural life originally from God who loses nothing by sharing it.
His Spirit is of Him, and always of Him never separated from Him. When He pours out that Spirit it unites to Him in Spirit and nature and power those it is poured out on, in whatever measure it is given.
And it is given forever to unite forever those in Him. His Spirit gives eternal life, a share in His own life. He chooses now to only allow it to be given to those reborn into His son.
The Greek word “Zoe” .2222 is used in the NT when it is eternal life being spoken of and it is an interesting exercise to separate out what in English is not discriminated-life, and eternal life.
These verses raise some questions for me:
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.If this is the Father's Spirit why does He “not speak of himself”? Who does he hear from?
Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.If this is the Father's Spirit why does He function in an intercessory role between us and Himself? Intercession infers at least a one-way exchange of information between one party and another. Why would His Spirit need to communicate with Himself? It's hard for me to fathom.
Oh, and David, the Spirit is identified as having having a mind, as well as the very personal attributes of 'hearing', 'speaking', 'showing' and 'intercessing', all of which necessitate independent cognition – intelligence. Can you explain to me how an impersonal “active force” could be described as having a mind and these personal attributes?
This verse is interesting to:
Acts 13:2-4
2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.Hi Is 1.18,
The Spirit of God does not bring any new revelation now apart from what has already been given by Christ. The Spirit shows the future and teaches us and shows us the truth in all situations but it is always now according to the Written Word of God. Christ, the divine Son of God, is the final and greatest prophet and has said all that is necessary for us to know.There are no more new prophets with new information but the Spirit of Christ among men reminds them of what has already been said. That is why it says he takes what has been said [he has heard] and does not speak of Himself [no new information].
The Spirit of God lives in us and knows what our needs are better than we do and God has graciously allowed his own Spirit to transmit those needs to Him in the prayer of tongues. God's Spirit is always in relationship with God Himself so it is natural for Him.
Why should we be bemused by the amazing, almost personal, character of the Spirit of God when we have nothing humanly comparable to be able to understand and fully grasp it?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2006,10:32) This verse is interesting to: Acts 13:2-4
2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Hi Is 1.18,
The Spirit of Christ working within the body of Christ reveals the will of God through their prayer as a body.Jesus is the head of the body of Christ so it is important that the Will of God through him and through his body on earth is revealed and obeyed.
Quote God's Spirit is always in relationship with God Himself so it is natural for Him.
God's Spirit is in relationship with Him?? Surely a mutual relationship can only really exist between two discrete, intelligent, self-aware personages. Can you explain in more depth exactly what you mean by this?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2006,11:00) Quote God's Spirit is always in relationship with God Himself so it is natural for Him.
God's Spirit is in relationship with Him?? Surely a mutual relationship can only really exist between two discrete, intelligent, self-aware personages. Can you explain in more depth exactly what you mean by this?
Hi Is 1.18,
A very close relationship as between the head and a hand of the same person. They are in different places, do different work but in unity. The hand serves and feeds the head and the head watches, listens and plans.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,10:53) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2006,10:32) This verse is interesting to: Acts 13:2-4
2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Hi Is 1.18,
The Spirit of Christ working within the body of Christ reveals the will of God through their prayer as a body.Jesus is the head of the body of Christ so it is important that the Will of God through him and through his body on earth is revealed and obeyed.
I suppose the reason I cited this verse is because the divine perogative of 'commanding' the apostle's was predicated on the Holy Spirit. As I see it to “command” infers a volitional agent with decision-making authority….Good night.
Hi Is 1.18,
How did the Spirit prevent Paul from going into Asia?
How did Peter know Ananias and Sapphira had attempted to defraud God?
How did the Spirit advise the best way of handling the new Jewish converts in Acts 15?
How did Peter raise the liitle girl from the dead?
How did Peter know to go with Cornelius?
How did Phillip know to wait at the roadside?
The book of Acts is a compilation of all the various ways the Spirit of God led, taught, advised, and did the many necessary works of God through individuals and groups.That way God's will is done.
But if the Spirit is separate from God then we can never have that promised unity in the Spirit in Jesus in God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,03:13) Hi Malcolm,
How do you view the Holy Spirit?
You seem to say, like the trinitarians, that the Spirit is separate from God Himself.
You seem to say the Holy Spirit is the natural life spirit of Jesus Christ.
Thus you say the Holy Spirit AND God lived in Jesus.
You seem to then ascribe the work done through Christ to God and not the Spirit.Yet you say Christ worked in power before his baptism as a child in the temple.This is confusing.
So who is the Spirit of God? His Spirit? My Spirit?The Spirit of Christ? The Spirit of Glory? The Spirt of grace? the Spirit of truth? The Spirit of life?
Are these all different ?
It makes it hard to read Rom 8 if so.
That seems to make it very different for us and we cannot follow Jesus.Quote You seem to say, like the trinitarians, that the Spirit is separate from God Himself. No, no, no – THE SPIRIT IS GOD HIMSELF – the Father. And He is a life giving spirit, a spirit of LIFE, and that LIFE is expressed as offspring – sons, who all have that same spirit – as a life stream in them – as their life.
So as the Father is not His own son, there are two beings of One Spiritual LIFE. One is the SOURCE of that LIFE, and the son, and sons that follow as a result of his sacrifice, are also of that same LIFE – His LIFESTREAM.Quote You seem to say the Holy Spirit is the natural life spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus' life was God's life as a son – he did not need a rebirth to be the son of God – he was the son of god from the womb (before the womb – in fact)
That is a funny term you use there Nick – 'natural life spirit' – what is a natural life spirit?Quote Thus you say the Holy Spirit AND God lived in Jesus. Hopefully If I have managed yet to get the idea of Lifesource and Lifestream across you can see that this is not the case. God is THE HOLY SPIRIT – and His children live by His Spirit, even as the life of any father is in his son. Unlike most sons Jesus was also God's tabernacle, his Father dwelt in him also.
Quote You seem to then ascribe the work done through Christ to God and not the Spirit. With a little bit of luck this will not need to be cleared up either. If the Spirit of God works – it is God that works – be it in and through a son – the singled membered body (and head of the body) – the Groom, or through His many membered body the Bride.
Quote Yet you say Christ worked in power before his baptism as a child in the temple.This is confusing. Worked in power?
He said he was about his Father's business – he was answering their questions regarding the scriptures – how?
As a natural man unregenerate?
By figuring it out with his own mind? I think not.Quote So who is the Spirit of God? His Spirit? My Spirit?The Spirit of Christ? The Spirit of Glory? The Spirt of grace? the Spirit of truth? The Spirit of life?
Are these all different ?By one spirit we are all baptized into one body and have all been made to drink into one spirit.
There is only one spirit of God – not many. And there is only One God, not many.
Yet this one God is a Father, and He has children – these children – like Him are spirit.
As was Jesus His first son.How is this confusing?
Hi Malcolm,
“Jesus life was God's life as a son”From when? From conception/birth?
Sounds like false catholic trinity “incarnation” to me.
Was the son just a shell with no mind, or will or understanding of his own?
Did he not have to learn from his parents?
Did he not have to study the scrolls?How can he be said to be like to us and how can we follow him?
** God who IS spirit can divide His Spirit. Send a piece of Himself upon man* If this is not the case then God would have 2 spirits.
* So God pours out Himself (Spirit) but that spirit stays connected to God becasuse He is eternal Spirit and life.
*God is a Spirit being who is able to share His Spirit (Holy Spirit). Though God shares His Spirit He Himself never looses any of His Spirit because He is Eternal Spirit . So the Holy Spirit is God .
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has “NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD.”
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
The Holy Spirit is a portion of God the Father. We have our own spirit who is led by the Holy Spirit. Jesus has His own spirit and a greater portion of Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1Co 8:6 yet to us there is ONE God THE FATHER of whom are all things, and we unto him; AND ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Yet to us their is ONE GOD the Father who is Spirit, And one Lord Jesus the Son of the Spirit. Both have the Spirit of God. The Father who IS life gave unto His Son the Father's Spirit. Being the only begotten of the Spirit, the Son of the Spirit has MORE of His Father's spirit than we do which makes him head over man.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
The Father, life and giver of life is God the Spirit (John 4:24).
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that “GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
“GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.” God (part of the Fathers Spirit) will be all in all. The Holy Spirit will be in everyone. Everyone will have the Spirit of eternal life.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,18:46) Hi Malcolm,
“Jesus life was God's life as a son”From when? From conception/birth?
Sounds like false catholic trinity “incarnation” to me.
Was the son just a shell with no mind, or will or understanding of his own?
Did he not have to learn from his parents?
Did he not have to study the scrolls?How can he be said to be like to us and how can we follow him?
No the son was not just a mindless shell he was a son just like we are upon rebirth.
He obviously had a will of his own as we see in the garden of Gethsemane.
He learned obedience – [Heb 5:8]LUKE 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.Filled with wisdom – filled by whom? Strong in spirit – did he have a willful spirit? I don't think that is what it means – and the grace of God was upon him.
I don't read anywhere that he had to study and learn the scrolls – I do read that he amazed them in the temple at Jerusalem whose lives were devoted to nothing but the study of the scrolls.
I believe he learned to be a carpenter from Joseph, learned many things from Mary, but needed no man to teach him the Word of God.
Take for example John the Baptist:LUKE 1:41-44
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.He was quickened by the holy spirit before he was born. Of him Jesus said not a man among them born of women greater than he (Matt 11:11)
(now there is an interesting statement – did Jesus include himself in this? Wasn't he greater? Wasn't he born of a woman? – an interesting enigma…I sure don't claim to know the answer to that one)
Yet John the Baptist did not go the way of his father Zacharias – become a priest – he went into the wilderness to learn of God.
Quote How can he be said to be like to us and how can we follow him? He took the form of weak human flesh – like us
could die in this flesh – like us
was able to be tempted in this flesh – like ushad the life of God's spirit in him as a son of God from the womb – unlike us
He was not born in sin – unlike us
Knew no sin – unlike us
Existed beforehand with his Father – unlike usHow can we be like him and follow him?
By a spiritual rebirth which addresses these issues
We then have the spirit of God in us as sons – like him
Are born of god and cannot sin for His seed remains in us
And will be restored to our heavenly Father to live eternally with Him
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