The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Blocked

Quote (david @ Feb. 25 2012,19:41)

Nick………………why are you incapable of discussing scripture like an adult, conversing back and forth? Do you know how frustrated you would be if others always did this with you?

:cool:

February 26, 2012 at 4:38 pm#280812

Ed J

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,15:42)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 26 2012,15:38)

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,15:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 26 2012,15:32)

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,15:27)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 26 2012,15:19)

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,15:14)

When it says father of spirits (plural) no, I don't take this to mean the holy spirit. It is clearly referring to spirits in plural.

Gods holy spirit stands put distinct from the “spirits” (plural) referred to here.

Hi David,

It does not specifically say that the HolySpirit is excluded
from Heb.12:9, why do you make this assumption?

God bless
Ed J

I'm not sure why you are even arguing this point which seems to help me. If you are saying that the father is the father of the holy spirit, then this implies (using every day normal logic) that God, the father, is not the holy spirit that he is also the father of.

Perhaps one reason I don't think that god is the father of the holy spirit, is that it is made plain in the bible that it is “of” God, HIS finger, HIS arm, something he possesses and uses as he wills.

Is god the father of his finger?

This scripture uses “spirits” in plural. It seems that it is referring to something else. Not “the” holy spirit.

Hi David,

Heb.12:9 is indicative of the father of Spirits being the HolySpirit.

God bless
Ed J

HOW is it indicative of that?

What do you think is meant by “spirits” in that scripture?

Hi David,

Every spirit other than God's. …do you think differently?

God bless
Ed J

1.”God IS a spirit”

2. And God has his holy spirit which he uses as his power or force to accomplish his will.

So, when you say, “every spirit other than God's” spirit, are you referring to 1 or 2 or both?

Hi David,

There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9.
This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”.

A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”.
B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.

I have highlighted in my previous post where I have pointed this dilemma to you already.
Since you reject “A” (which is correct), you can ONLY claim “B”, but you know this cannot be correct.

So YOUR only alternative is to say that the “HolySpirit” is exempt from this verse.
So the burden of proof then shifts to YOU, what evidence DO YOU HAVE to suggest this? (1Thess.5:21)

You did say you wanted to discuss this matter, did you not?

Since the watchtower society's opinions holds no water here,
you will have to produce Scriptural backing on this;
well, do YOU have any?, if so, lets see it?

Reposting how many times the bible says Jehovah is God
is irrelevant to the point of Heb.12:9. YOU best check with
YOUR leaders and see what prefabbed answers they have.

…I'll be waiting!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 26, 2012 at 4:45 pm#280813

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 26 2012,09:38)

There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9.
This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”.

A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”.
B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.

Or C: The Holy Spirit is an “apendage/possession/part OF” the Father of spirits.

C is the correct answer, Ed.

February 26, 2012 at 6:04 pm#280822

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2012,15:55)

Hi David,
Forget the thin and disrespectful JW theology and learn from scripture what the HOLY Spirit also does.
Gal 5.16f
1Cor 12

Nick, you and your Catholic trinity talk is disrespectful to truth, logic, and all that is good. Your constant illogical ad hominim attacks show how week you are when it comes to actual debate.

You are incapable of conversing. I guess that is what one would expect from a Catholic.

(Every time Nick does something like this, I have chosen to do the above twice.)

Up until now, with Nick, I have been going by PROVERBS 26:4.

I have decided with Nick, this is of no avail, and I am now going to go with PROVERBS 26:5. (It won't help him to think more logically, but it will be much more fun)

Bob

February 26, 2012 at 6:07 pm#280824

Participant

Hi David,
Like you I come from catholic roots.
but you need to look at the scriptures given and not divert.

February 26, 2012 at 6:12 pm#280825

Participant

Quote (carmel @ Feb. 26 2012,18:30)

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,15:20)

What I said was:

But, god BEING a spirit is not to be confused with something he possesses, something that is often spoken of as something he possesses, HIS holy spirit, the spirit “of God.

God IS a spirit. But he also HAS HIS holy spirit, which is what he uses to accomplish his will.

Quote

God IS a spirit. But he also HAS HIS holy spirit, which is what he uses to accomplish his will.

David,

Does this mean that God has two spirits?

Are these the two spirits mentioned hereunder??

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Now to Jesus:

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If so, who is the spirit of the SON then??

Where did it come from?

And how the Holy Ghost is glorifing Jesus??

How all what the Father has belong to Jesus??

So God has three spirits then not two!!!!!

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

I don't know why people fail to understand what I am saying.

You ask: “Does this mean that God HAS two spirits???”

JOHN 4:24: “GOD IS A SPIRIT.”

So, this verse is not saying that he HAS a spirit, as if inside of God there were a Ghost or something like that.

It is saying that he IS, IS A SPIRIT. The word “spririt” if you look at all the ways it is used, is a word that conveys the idea of something that cannot be seen. It is the same word used of “breath” and “wind.”

Once again. This verse is NOT saying that God HAS a spirit, but that he IS a spirit. “God is a spirit…”

The holy spirit or God's holy spirit is something different than God himself. It is something that in Scripture he is said to “send” forth to accomplish his will.

Nick, who enjoys Catholicism should understand this, because Catholics often speak of the holy spirit as the “power” of God.

God IS a spirit.

And on a completely unrelated note:

God's holy spirit is the force he uses to accomplish his will. It's something he has. It's his “finger,” his “holy spirit,” his “arm,” his force or power to accomplish his purpose.

Two completely different things.

February 26, 2012 at 6:14 pm#280826

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,04:07)

Hi David,
Like you I come from catholic roots.
but you need to look at the scriptures given and not divert.

Nick, with everyone else I shall act appropropriately. But with you, it is hypocritical of you to ask me not to divert, when that is your specialty, your signature, your hobby. And, over time, it is something I have seen Catholic do again and again, change the subject, attack the person instead of the argument. Figures.

Read the scriptures in Proverbs and understand why I am doing this.

February 26, 2012 at 6:17 pm#280828

Participant

Hi,
The Spirit is OF God and not a TOOL.

February 26, 2012 at 6:19 pm#280830

Participant

So david ,
How about ps 139.7 for a start.

February 26, 2012 at 6:21 pm#280831

Participant

Quote

There are “only” two (Spirit) positions available in Heb.12:9.
This verse allows for no other position of the “HolySpirit”, other than “A” or “B”.

A. The “Father of Spirits” is the “HolySpirit”.
B. The HolySpirit is one of the “spirits”(?) that the Father of Spirits is the father of.

I was wanting to address these other comments before getting to the one scripture you wanted to discuss.
First, there are not only 2 options. I don't know why you would say that.

The “father of spirits” could be God. And God could be the Father of the vast number of spirits that were created. But, the holy spirit, since in scripture it is spoken of so often possessively, as if he possesses it, as if it is the “finger of God” or his Arm, or his power, it should be easy for you to understand that God did not Create his own arm. God is not the father of his own arm.

So, no, there is anther option. That option is, we understand the holy spirit in light of how it is often spoken of in the Bible–as something God possesses. For simplicity sake, I keep saying his 'finger' as it is spoken of that way a couple of times.

Now, on to your scripture that this began with.

February 26, 2012 at 6:22 pm#280832

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,04:17)

Hi,
The Spirit is OF God and not a TOOL.

NICK

I don't remember using the word 'tool' anywhere.

Are we now creating false arguments just so you can smash them down? How Catholic of you.

February 26, 2012 at 6:25 pm#280833

Participant

Hi D,
Your whole discussion speaks of the Spirit as some sort of a limited tool of God's that you would divide from God Himself.
This is not what you mean?

February 26, 2012 at 6:26 pm#280834

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,04:19)

So david ,
How about ps 139.7 for a start.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Nick, you will have to explain why you think that this scripture shows or states that the holy spirit is God.

This scripture does not in any way help what you are trying to show. But if it does, if I am somehow missing it, please explain and show why you think it does.

david

February 26, 2012 at 6:27 pm#280835

Participant

This is the scripture Ed wanted to discuss:

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HolySpirit,
and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own?
and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?
why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

February 26, 2012 at 6:34 pm#280836

Participant

On acts 5

1. You lied to the holy spirit (of God).
2. You lied to God.

3. You cut the finger (of David).
4. You cut David.

We understand that statements such as 3 and 4 can both make perfect sense together: you cut the finger “of” David. Or, more generally, you cut David.

And even though we all realize that it is the spirit “of” God and that it's Gods holy spirit, we somehow can't understand that to lie to Gods holy spirit is to lie to God.

In scripture, Gods spirit is called his finger. So, the illustration should make sense to everyone.

February 26, 2012 at 6:55 pm#280838

Participant

Hi David,
Yes you cannot understand these things.
But they are basic.

February 26, 2012 at 7:09 pm#280839

Blocked

Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2012,11:34)

On acts 5

1. You lied to the holy spirit (of God).
2. You lied to God.

3. You cut the finger (of David).
4. You cut David.

We understand that statements such as 3 and 4 can both make perfect sense together: you cut the finger “of” David. Or, more generally, you cut David.

And even though we all realize that it is the spirit “of” God and that it's Gods holy spirit, we somehow can't understand that to lie to Gods holy spirit is to lie to God.

In scripture, Gods spirit is called his finger. So, the illustration should make sense to everyone.

Ed likes to forget that Acts 5 also has a verse 9:

9 Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

Your “finger” analogy is good, David. In the past I've used an “ear” analogy with Ed.

If you tell a lie to my ears, are you not actually telling a lie to ME at the same time?

Ed, don't get confused that my ears ARE ME, for they are but a PART OF ME. But if you lie to the PART OF ME that can hear your lie, then you are also lying to ME.

February 26, 2012 at 7:13 pm#280841