One God and One Lord

[Berean]

 

@ DT

Pss.2
[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against
1)👉 the LORD, and against
2) 👉his anointed,

saying,

[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

[6] Yet have I set 👉 my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, 👉Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.👈

[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

DO YOU KNOW THE KING WHO WILL DO THIS ABOVE V.9
AND VERSE 8
THIS KING WILL INHERIT THE WHOLE EARTH!!!!???
IS THIS YOUR MESSIAH WHO IS NOT YET BORN WHO WILL INHERIT THE WHOLE EARTH?

[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

NOW IF I ARE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY
THE WORD 👉SON WOULD BE INVENTED
“purity” or “sincerity” would be better

IN THAT CASE WE WOULD HAVE

[12] Kiss the “PURITY” lest he be angry

ANGRY PURITY!!!!???

NO, THE TEXT DOES NOT SUDDENLY SWITCH TO IMAGINATIVE OR SYMBOLIC MODE.
IT IS ABOUT THE KING, GOD’S ANOINTED OF THE DAVIDIC LINE, THE LAST ON THE LIST

,👉 and ye perish from the way, when👉 his wrath is kindled but a little.

👉Blessed are all they that put their trust 👉in him.👈 (anointed King)

Rev. 6:15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from

the face of 👉HIM that sits on the throne,

👉and from the wrath of the LAMB:(King of Kings and Lord of Lords)

[17] 👉For the great day of 👉HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Note:
‘There is consensus among scholars that Jesus of Nazareth spoke the Aramaic language. Aramaic was the common language of Roman Judea, and therefore also spoken by Jesus’ disciples.

One could thus understand why the word “bar” is used, as a prophetic “wink” to signal the Messiah/Anointed King.

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

So we’re going to toss grammar into a heap of trash and favor our own understanding because we like it better as it fits with our belief system…understood!

I really liked the “One could understand why the word “bar” is used, as a prophetic “wink” to signal the Messiah/Anointed King.” You go with that and keep believing the lie you were told is truth. The words written don’t support your belief; instead of clinging to the king Jimmy, why not read a Hebrew translation of the words THEY WROTE!!!! Go to Chabad.org and read Ps 2 and compare it to Jimmy’s corruption; it doesn’t say what Jimmy translated.

Your “ANGRY PURITY” gave me a good laugh as you didn’t read what I wrote, I said to “kiss in purity” NOT to “kiss the purity” (one could even say to “kiss with sincerely”); pay homage to the king G-d has anointed. Never implied there was a switch to “IMAGINATIVE OR SYMBOLIC MODE”, that you did all by yourself. It seems christianity lowers one’s IQ.

Then you quote the book of Revelation; still waiting for an explanation of Rev 1:3 and 22:7,12,20 and that “come quickly” phrase the Jesus utters and never did.

Waiting for the passages that state G-d has a “son” HE was going to sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

When are you going to start verifying anything; all you have to do is read!!

[Proclaimer]

Not the verse I was referencing I was speaking on Matt 7:21-23 where the Jesus is speaking.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

Here the Jesus is definitely speaking of the “final judgment” and condemning those who thought they were doing what the Jesus taught, but apparently didn’t meet his expectations and are thus condemned.

How does one know if they are truly doing “the will of my Father”? Because if you aren’t, you’re condemned.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart… and your neighbour as yourself.

At the end of the day, the wicked, no matter the religious traditions and rituals they stick to will not be saved because they are not doing the will of the Father. If you do not know the will of God, then one word can sum it up. LOVE.

If you love God and your fellow man, then you will do the will of God because you love and that means God and all that he has made.

Your nature will change from fleshly to spiritual.

[Proclaimer]

In fact, the Jesus tells us in John 14:12

12 Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.

Yet, these who are doing these “greater works”, the Jesus says he doesn’t know. By the way, when was the last time you raised someone from the dead, caste out a demon, or healed someone?

People have claimed to raise the dead. I saw a demon with my own eyes one time and was able to deliver my brother. The only reason greater works are even possible is because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

Also, much of what future generations have achieved is possible because Jesus is with the Father and he intercedes for us. We perhaps do not understand most of what we do and how it impacts people and the world.

Jesus discipled 12 people and taught many thousands. It is possible that some have discipled more and reached more for example.

[Proclaimer]

@desiretruth

Unfortunately the Jesus fails on being a member of the tribe of Judah; biologically he isn’t connected to the line of David because the spirit is the one who fathered him (Luke 1:26-35, Matt 1:18). It is of the seed of David the Messiah is to be born of (2 Sam 7:12-17, I Chron 11-14). Lineage is associated with the father and not the mother (Num 1:2,18); so Luke’s genealogical account is irrelevant as it points to Mary and Matthew’s is beyond messed up by including Jeconiah in the lineage.

Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, he was Jesus’ legal father. In Jewish culture, legal paternity established family lineage and inheritance rights. He also had a biological descent through Mary, who may also have been a descendant of David. So that is a legal and a possible biological descent.

Either way, the New Testament presents Jesus as fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would come from the house of David. If Jesus was a Jew, what house would you place him?

[Proclaimer]

@desiretruth

If Jesus was a Jew, which house or tribe would he belong to?

He would have to come from one of the tribes of Israel, right?

In the time of Jesus, Jews still saw themselves as descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel, but many tribal identities had been lost. This largely happened after the Northern Kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BC and many of the northern tribes were scattered.

By the first century, the main tribal groups that remained identifiable were Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The southern kingdom that survived was the Kingdom of Judah, and the term “Jew” itself comes from Judah.

Because most of the population in Judea descended from that kingdom, it made it more likely that people there, including Jesus, were associated with the tribe of Judah, which is also the tribe the New Testament says he came from.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Isa 7:14 “For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.”

Please read the entire chapter of Isaiah 7 and tell me it’s about a coming “messiah.” If by one singular verse you can make the connection to be about a “messiah” (the Jesus), then you have just ignored and thrown out the context of what was written (G-d’s words). Besides the “prophesy” isn’t the “virginity” of the young woman, it’s about the boy rejecting evil and choosing good.

When will people start to verify anything?!?!?! G-d’s truth is there; all you have to do is read it!

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

If you love God and your fellow man, then you will do the will of God because you love and that means God and all that he has made.

If “love” is all I need to do the “will of G-d” then why do I need the Jesus. Why would I need to listen to a word the Jesus spoke? Are the 613 commands given by G-d insufficient? What did the Jesus say that would supersede anything originally spoken by G-d?

Thinking on atonement, G-d said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and HE would remember it no more (Nineveh – G-d forgiving); yet, christianity says I need the Jesus for atonement.

I “need” the Jesus; Prove it!

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

People have claimed to raise the dead. I saw a demon with my own eyes one time and was able to deliver my brother. The only reason greater works are even possible is because we stand on the shoulders of giants.
Also, much of what future generations have achieved is possible because Jesus is with the Father and he intercedes for us. We perhaps do not understand most of what we do and how it impacts people and the world.
Jesus discipled 12 people and taught many thousands. It is possible that some have discipled more and reached more for example.

It was the Jesus (the miracle worker in John 14:12) who stated those who simply “believed in him” would perform even greater “miracles” than he did. The Jesus saw a need and then did something about it. Yet, our hospital are filled with people, our graveyards are filling up daily, and hurts and pains everywhere; a world in shambles and where are the “believers” in the Jesus making everything right? Do these “believers” not “love” their neighbor enough (will of G-d mentioned previously)? Before one attempts to push this off on the individual in need as not having “enough faith”, that isn’t what the Jesus said; he said those who believed in him would do greater works; so the responsibility falls on the “believer” not the one in need.

You say you have performed a miracle, not to minimize it, but only one; “works” are plural.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Although Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, he was Jesus’ legal father. In Jewish culture, legal paternity established family lineage and inheritance rights. He also had a biological descent through Mary, who may also have been a descendant of David. So that is a legal and a possible biological descent.

You may to check again the “legal paternity” concerning tribal lineage; tribal lineage DOES NOT “transfer” and comes from the father (source). Also, please read Num 1:2, 18; the sons are counted with their father’s house (tribe). The mother has NOTHING to do with tribal lineage. Both Matthew and Luke say the father of the Jesus is the “spirit of G-d” and NOT a descendant of David; G-d told David in 2 Samuel 7:12-13 that David’s kingdom would continue on thru his son Solomon forever, nothing about his other son Nathan. This would mean the Messiah would have to come thru Solomon…PERIOD!! There is no question to the meaning of what G-d spoke to David or are you saying G-d broke HIS promise to David?

Either way, the New Testament presents Jesus as fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would come from the house of David.

So because it was “presented” by the writers of two books as a fulfillment it is therefore truth?!?! The writer of Matthew “presented” several examples of the Jesus “fulfilling” what was spoken in the Tanakh and when verified proves the writer of Matthew made up these “fulfillments”…I like to call them lies.

If Jesus was a Jew, what house would you place him?

The Jesus was a “Jew”, because his mother was Jewish (read Ezra 9-10); the children born to these men were NOT considered part of Israel because these men married and had children with foreign women. The women were not Jewish and therefore neither were the children. It’s literally written in the book you call the “Word of G-d”; do you accept what G-d said or what man wants you to believe it says?

Concerning the “house” the Jesus belonged to, would be none; the Jesus’ father was the spirit of G-d who isn’t a descendant of David and Solomon (remember Num 1:2, 18 and being numbered with the father’s house). 2 Sam 7:1-17 and 1 Chronicles 17:1–15 is where G-d makes a covenant with David concerning the Messiah and MUST be a biological descendant, not a product of a mortal woman and a god. What the Jesus is, is a demigod. How does one not see this??

[Proclaimer]

Your response contains some correct elements, but the conclusion you draw is much stronger than what the biblical and historical evidence actually supports. The issue involves several separate questions: tribal lineage, legal descent, and the Davidic line.

You are correct that in the Hebrew Bible tribal affiliation normally follows the father. Passages such as Numbers 1:2 and 1:18 show that Israelite men were registered according to their father’s house. In the ordinary legal structure of ancient Israel, a person’s tribe and inheritance were therefore tied to paternal descent.

However, this does not mean legal status had no role. In Jewish society, legal fatherhood and adoption could establish household identity and inheritance rights. Once Joseph publicly accepted Jesus as his son and named him (Matthew 1:24 to 25), Jesus would be regarded socially and legally as belonging to Joseph’s house. In the context of first century Jewish society, that meant he was recognised as part of the house of David.

[Proclaimer]

In John 14:12, Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)

So the claim that Jesus said believers would do “greater works” than he did is correct in the sense that the statement appears in the Gospel of John.

However, the text uses the Greek word ἔργα (erga), which means works, not necessarily miracles specifically. The Gospel sometimes uses the word “works” to include miracles, but it can also refer more broadly to the mission and impact of Jesus’ followers.

Immediately after this verse, Jesus adds: “And whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (John 14:13)

The broader context of John’s Gospel emphasises that these “greater works” are connected with the coming of the Holy Spirit and the spread of the message after Jesus’ departure.

Many biblical scholars interpret “greater works” to mean the global spread of the message about Jesus, the conversion of large numbers of people, and the continuation of Jesus’ mission after his ascension rather than greater miraculous power than Jesus himself.

For example, this website has probably reached more people than Jesus reached directly with over 1 million people.

As for my involvement in miracles, I believe I have been involved in many. However, I acknowledge that I have never been involved in something like raising the dead, which would certainly be an extraordinary miracle.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

I am amazed at how much people read between the lines when discussing the bible; either words have meaning and they mean what they say or they’re simply a literary device that can be interpreted anyway one decides and is how we end up with multiple meanings…is it any wonder why there are so many “christian” faiths today, with each claiming theirs is the “true” faith and all others are wrong?

The Jesus says, “the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these”, now please back up to verse 11, “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, but if you do not believe me, believe because of the miraculous deeds themselves.”, the “works” he’s speaking of were all those “miracles.” He wasn’t speaking of the spirit or bringing people to himself; he said to believe, at the very least, because of the miracles he’s performing. You saying, “these ‘greater works’ are connected with the coming of the Holy Spirit and the spread of the message after Jesus’ departure” is injecting here what the end of the book says. The Jesus wasn’t saying the spirit was going to help them or that the works he was speaking of were to spread “the gospel”, it was about the miracles he was performing. He goes on to say that believers were to simply ask anything in his name and he would do it (the miracles up to that point).

So I’ll ask again, why are our hospitals full? Does one not “love” our neighbor enough to heal them? If we’re being honest, your response gives the christian an excuse to not perform these great miracles the Jesus promised one believing in him would do by simply asking.

If you want to find the truth, remove your Jesus goggles, begin verifying what’s written the NT, and start studying the Tanakh…it will change you! Is it fear that keeps most stuck where they are?

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Concerning your other post about adoption; the adoption narrative is moot and really a waste of time to debate UNLESS you can back up what you are saying with proof, because what you’re presenting is “hear say” and you’re really applying today’s standards of an “adoption” to an event 2000 years ago; did you read the link I gave you, it’s what the Jewish community follows today and seems to align with the Tanakh; so what’s said on the website isn’t new, but comes from old.

The larger and more important question everyone here avoids, is how can the Jesus be the Messiah when he wasn’t conceived of the biological seed (male descendant) of David and Solomon (God’s words, not mine – another reason the adoption narrative is moot). Did the Jesus fulfill what was said the Messiah was to do when he came? Also, let’s not forget the genealogical account in Matthew who throws in Jeconiah – a man who was stripped of his kingship by G-d and told none of his descendants (which would include the Jesus according to Matthew) would ever sit on David’s throne…oops! The writer of Matthew made a huge mistake by including Jeconiah and the NT begins to collapse under its own weight of deception.

Prove to yourself, using the Tanakh, the Jesus is the true Messiah? Look up the passages quoted from the Tanakh the writer of Matthew claims are fulfillment of prophecies and ask if they really were: Matt 1:23; Matt 2:6; Matt 2:15; Matt 2:18; Matt 2:23(?where’s this?); Matt 4:15-16; Matt 8:17. If there are any one of these passages that has been twisted to fit the Jesus narrative, how can the NT be called the “infallible word of G-d”? Then there’s the book of Hebrews…rip it out!

[Proclaimer]

These are the facts:

The Greek wording does not specifically say “miracles”. The immediate context emphasises belief and mission, it’s not miracle competition.

“Greater” (Greek: μείζονα, meizona) in its context is about Jesus’ ministry which was largely confined to Judea and Galilee, but his followers later carried the message across the Roman world. Jesus also said that this age will end when the gospel is preached to all the world. This is certainly greater and understandably so. Jesus was a single person and didn’t have the tools like the Internet or air travel. He was confined to a geographical area. He got the ball rolling so to speak.

The Gospel still presents Jesus’ works as uniquely authoritative, portraying his signs as revealing his divine identity rather than as miracles that ordinary believers would later surpass.

“Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

After all, we are not the Messiah and Son of God. His miracles testified to this.

That said, God can use us to perform miracles, I have seen it first hand. But I am not the messiah. But on pure numbers, this website has reached more people than Jesus reached directly.

[Proclaimer]

Concerning your other post about adoption; the adoption narrative is moot and really a waste of time to debate UNLESS you can back up what you are saying with proof, because what you’re presenting is “hear say” and you’re really applying today’s standards of an “adoption” to an event 2000 years ago; did you read the link I gave you, it’s what the Jewish community follows today and seems to align with the Tanakh; so what’s said on the website isn’t new, but comes from old.

It’s not moot or speculation. It is fact.

Jacob adopts Ephraim and Manasseh

“Your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are.”

Here Jacob formally adopts Joseph’s sons as his own, and they become full tribal ancestors of Israel. Their legal status does not fully depend on being Jacob’s biological sons.

Moses becomes Pharaoh’s daughter’s son

“She brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son.”

While not being adopted into a tribe of Israel, Moses is raised as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, showing that formal recognition could establish sonship in a legal or social sense. So this is not restricted to Israel.

Eliezer as Abraham’s heir

Before Isaac was born, Abraham expected his servant to inherit his household in Book of Genesis 15:2 to 3. This reflects the ancient Near Eastern custom that a non biological heir could legally inherit if recognised as the household successor.

But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”

Taken together, these examples show that legal sonship and inheritance were recognised concepts in the Old Testament world.

[Proclaimer]

The Jesus says, “the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these”, now please back up to verse 11, “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, but if you do not believe me, believe because of the miraculous deeds themselves.”

Fact: About 95 percent or more of English Bible translations use the word “works” in this passage, while only a small minority render it as “miracles” or “miraculous deeds”, mainly the NET Bible and some paraphrased versions. The reason is that the Greek word ἔργα (erga) simply means “works” or “deeds”, so translating it as “miracles” is an interpretive choice that narrows the meaning beyond what the original word explicitly states.

 

 

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Apparently I’m missing something when I read the words the Jesus said, because the works being spoken of are the miracles he was performing. The text literally says it; however, it has been twisted to say what it doesn’t BECAUSE none are doing the miraculous signs and wonders the Jesus promised they would.

Where do you get that the Jesus is referencing the future of the “ministry”…from commentaries of religious scholars justifying the passage. The passage says being the believer in the Jesus is all that is needed to perform the same and “greater” works (aka miracles) that the Jesus was doing.

Either words mean what they mean or they’re meaningless. In short, as the christian, you cannot justify the words written in this passage and thus have to make something up so it can be reasoned away.

Before you bash the NET translation as being a “paraphrase”, highly recommend you look into who did the translating and don’t forget to take a peak at the notes of why they translated the way they did. I don’t think I have found anything quite as exhaustive as this; Gill, Henry, and Poole have taken a back seat.

 

You are so stuck on adoption you can’t see past the end of your nose. The adoption narrative is irrelevant, it’s false, it’s a justification; what really matters are the words G-d spoke to David in 2 Sam 7:1-17 and 1 Chronicles 17:1–15 and pay attention to verses 12 and 11 respectively. It say “set up thy seed after thee”; the word “seed” in Hebrew is “zera” and means to produce after its own kind. In the next verse in each it says “establish his throne for ever” and the only way the king’s throne can continue is thru a biological descendant. In other words the Jesus, to be in the line of David and Solomon, has to be a direct biological descendant of them and according to Matthew and Luke, the father of the Jesus in the spirit of G-d and as the story goes Joseph never had relations with Mary; so Joseph’s biology isn’t in the Jesus.

Before you run to the “Mary lineage”, remember being numbered with the father’s house; the mother had nothing to do with tribal lineage.

How is this so difficult to understand?!?!?

[Keith]

One God= Father, One Lord=Jesus–LORD does not belong in the OT-YHVH, or YHWH belongs–Thus the removal of Gods name misleads ALL using those altered translations.

[DesireTruth]

Read the Jewish bible, it doesn’t have the issues of confusing who G-d is.

If the Jesus is your “Lord”, doesn’t that put something between you and G-d? I think G-d has a word for that…hmmm, idolatry?

[Author]

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