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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,00:23) Hi CON,
No the mind must submit to scripture and not rule over it.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of 'Elohim.Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,19:23) Hi CON,
No the mind must submit to scripture and not rule over it.
Nick………..Scripture (IS) the expressed MIND of GOD it is GOD'S INTELLECT given to us, it comes through (WORDS) which are the expression of intellects.I do see some of your problem though by this last statement, you said the MIND (MUST) SUBMIT TO SCRIPTURE AND NOT RULE OVER IT. The truth is the MIND is Changed by the effectual working of the SPIRIT (intellect) working in it. You continual (SELF SALVATION) ideology is Carnal earthly and fear based , but Scripture say we are changed by the (RENEWING OF OUR MINDS) we are (TRANSFORMED) in our minds. God's LOVE shed around in our Hearts AND minds. GOD love is not acquired by obeying Scripture, Scripture is obeyed by GOD changing our hearts and minds. By obedience to Law shall (NO) flesh be Justified before GOD.
peace and love………………gene
Gene,
I have agreed with you on many subjects but I fear you are a bit off track here. The hebrew word for heart means “the authority within”. Our intelect is not where we are supposed to be making decisions. There is a paradine shift that is supposed to happen where we live by the moving of God's breath upon our heart.It is about an attitude of the heart. It is not srictly about obeying and certainly not about mental ascending to some consciousness outside of the heart.martin……That paradine that causes the heart to react in a certain way is (intellect) Produced by GOD (if it is his Spirit or Intellect) that is causing the change and the Behavior. And indeed it is the Authority, seeing we all are animated by our thoughts, This force is much like the wind in that it can not be seen the same as Intellect can not be seen but the effects can be seen. “So a man thinks so he is”. Jesus said the (WORDS) he was Speaking (ARE) Spirit and life. Naturally because Life consists of thought and thought animates us to do things. A word is the expression of Thought. We are told to try the Spirits (intellects) to see if they are of GOD. When a man speaks His words they are from His Heart or Mind they are expressed thoughts from HIS Intellect (spirit). For that which comes out of the MOUTH that is what defiles the man, because it proceeds from his intellect and tells what Spirit intellect he has in him.
Martian think about this would like more of your input, I know you have very good Logic brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 29 2009,08:23) martin……That paradine that causes the heart to react in a certain way is (intellect) Produced by GOD (if it is his Spirit or Intellect) that is causing the change and the Behavior. And indeed it is the Authority, seeing we all are animated by our thoughts, This force is much like the wind in that it can not be seen the same as Intellect can not be seen but the effects can be seen. “So a man thinks so he is”. Jesus said the (WORDS) he was Speaking (ARE) Spirit and life. Naturally because Life consists of thought and thought animates us to do things. A word is the expression of Thought. We are told to try the Spirits (intellects) to see if they are of GOD. When a man speaks His words they are from His Heart or Mind they are expressed thoughts from HIS Intellect (spirit). For that which comes out of the MOUTH that is what defiles the man, because it proceeds from his intellect and tells what Spirit intellect he has in him. Martian think about this would like more of your input, I know you have very good Logic brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Question — what of those that are challenged intelectually. Do you say they have less of the irit. what of the mental handicapped? Do they have less “animation” because they have less intelect?Quote (Gene @ Nov. 29 2009,08:23) martin……That paradine that causes the heart to react in a certain way is (intellect) Produced by GOD (if it is his Spirit or Intellect) that is causing the change and the Behavior. And indeed it is the Authority, seeing we all are animated by our thoughts, This force is much like the wind in that it can not be seen the same as Intellect can not be seen but the effects can be seen. “So a man thinks so he is”. Jesus said the (WORDS) he was Speaking (ARE) Spirit and life. Naturally because Life consists of thought and thought animates us to do things. A word is the expression of Thought. We are told to try the Spirits (intellects) to see if they are of GOD. When a man speaks His words they are from His Heart or Mind they are expressed thoughts from HIS Intellect (spirit). For that which comes out of the MOUTH that is what defiles the man, because it proceeds from his intellect and tells what Spirit intellect he has in him. Martian think about this would like more of your input, I know you have very good Logic brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Gene,
Here is a definition of intellect that seems typical of what most definitions say.a. The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.
b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly.In my original post I submitted that spirit was the animating force in humanity. Assuming that the definition above is correct your premises would exclude all those that are challenged intellectually. Would they possess less of the spirit for being less intellectual?
Spirit also involves character. The spirit or presence of God in your life changes your character. Character is not an attribute of intellect. I personally know many that are dumber then a mud fence, but I envy their relationship with God and their character that is like Christ.
On the other hand I know some that are great intellectuals that have less Christ like character then Hitler.Thirdly spirit involves a guiding force. True guidance does not have to come from the intellect. Many times my leading from God has gone contrary to my intellect.
To all,
The Spirit does grant the ability the wisdom to judge between good from evil and the knowledge of God's ways. The Spirit of righteousness does not make us rocket scientists though we may be more adapt at determining when we are being deceived even by a rocket scientist.
I would not refer to this change as an increase in intellect as that usually means an increase in intelligence quotient. The students of Jesus are not all super geniuses.
martian……..i know what you are saying, but Knowledges only an aspect of intellect, Not intellect it self. Intellect is the (ABILITY) to absorb every kind of Knowledge there is, remember i said it is (the ABILITY) not the knowledge (IT Self)> Intellect is the ABILITY to absorb intelligence and some have more and some less, in earthely matters or heavenly matters, “if that light that is in you be darkness how great is that darkness. A man is enlighten through the intellect operating in his mind and this intellect is Spirit.
If we look at the word intelligence in a concordance we see it comes from, LED # 3820 and means inner man,mind, heart and will,> translated, 397 times as heart, 40 times as hearts, and mind 36 times. That was for the Word intelligence, but intellect is the ABILITY OR POWER, TO ACQUIRE THIS INTELLIGENCE and Spirit is that intellect (ability) to acquire intelligence. Not all have the same abilities as your explanation shows and i do agree. However all have some intellect ability may be more in some areas then other but none the less it is intellect given them . You and i both know GOD works in our minds and produces thought in us, Godly intellect. “For the Spirit both defends us and accuses us”. WE are being renewed by the (TRANSFORMING OF OUR MINDS) and again “LET THIS (MIND) be in you that was in Christ Jesus our lord. As i have shown Hearts and Minds come from the word intelligence. Intellect is the ability to acquire the intelligence and is Spirit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2009,10:50) To all, The Spirit does grant the ability the wisdom to judge between good from evil and the knowledge of God's ways. The Spirit of righteousness does not make us rocket scientists though we may be more adapt at determining when we are being deceived even by a rocket scientist.
I would not refer to this change as an increase in intellect as that usually means an increase in intelligence quotient. The students of Jesus are not all super geniuses.
Kerwin………While you would not say it is an increase of intellect, it none the less is a increase of intellect of some kind, it may not be (ALL) increase in everything, as you are assuming but none the less it is a increase your capacity in some area of life. Maybe God Gave you and increase in Intellect ability to Know who Christ is, that does not mean He gave you and increase in (ALL) intellects. Intellect or Spirit give us ability to comprehend thought and if it is GOD HOLY Spirit(intellect) then it is HOLY Thought, it is indeed the MIND of GOD being transfered to man through to his intellect and he then becomes enlightened. IMOpeace and love………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 29 2009,06:25) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2009,10:50) To all, The Spirit does grant the ability the wisdom to judge between good from evil and the knowledge of God's ways. The Spirit of righteousness does not make us rocket scientists though we may be more adapt at determining when we are being deceived even by a rocket scientist.
I would not refer to this change as an increase in intellect as that usually means an increase in intelligence quotient. The students of Jesus are not all super geniuses.
Kerwin………While you would not say it is an increase of intellect, it none the less is a increase of intellect of some kind, it may not be (ALL) increase in everything, as you are assuming but none the less it is a increase your capacity in some area of life. Maybe God Gave you and increase in Intellect ability to Know who Christ is, that does not mean He gave you and increase in (ALL) intellects. Intellect or Spirit give us ability to comprehend thought and if it is GOD HOLY Spirit(intellect) then it is HOLY Thought, it is indeed the MIND of GOD being transfered to man through to his intellect and he then becomes enlightened. IMOpeace and love………………gene
I will agree that wisdom and knowledge of God are aspects of intellect.Having the same mind as Jesus the Anointed One is having the same world view or mind-set. I am not sure that is even an aspect of intellect.
Here is an article I think is appropriate to this discussion. I agree that intellect is part of the factor that helps us walk with God but not all inclusive. The breath of God deals with the entire heart and not just the intellectual part. The web site from which it came is –
http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45940Can I depend on logic to lead someone to faith?
Thinking that logic alone can lead someone to faith is like thinking logic can convince someone that something is beautiful. Imagine driving through Navajo country in the southwest United States with a friend who considers the exquisite landscape just a barren wasteland. Would logic convince him that the landscape is beautiful? For every reason you give to demonstrate its beauty, your friend will counter with a reason for thinking it ugly. You perceive beauty; he doesn't. Mere logic isn't going to change his mind.
Some of the most important things in life transcend logic. No one can devise a logical proof for faith, beauty, or love. If we attempt a “proof” for them, we will be farther from understanding them than when we started. Such things are perceived by more than just our minds. They are perceived by something more profound than mere intellect.
The Bible refers to the center of the human personality as the “heart,”1 and specifically designates it as the place of faith ( Mark 11:23; Luke 24:25; John 14:1; Acts 8:37; Romans 10:9 ). This doesn't mean that faith is irrational. Faith can be philosophically and logically defended. But a logical defense of faith is as far from experiencing it as a verbal description of the flavor of strawberries is from their taste in the mouth. The heart includes the function of the mind, but transcends it. The inclination of peoples' hearts, not their intellectual powers, determines whether they will move in the direction of faith or unbelief. Jesus made this clear:
“Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” (John 3:20-21 NIV)
Hatred of truth causes unbelievers to use their rational powers to reject it. Hatred of truth occurs in their hearts. Their rationalizations for rejecting it are the consequence—not the cause—of their hatred.
This, too, is why the writer of Hebrews declares:
Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV)
The existence of God—like the existence of love and beauty—can be logically described. But it cannot be logically proven to someone who doesn't want to believe. Belief in these things requires openness of the heart. While logic can be used to provide evidence for the truth, it can also be used to rationalize evil. Ultimate choices are not only decisions of the mind but also matters of the heart, where logic is only a tool for fashioning a life of truth and goodness, or illusion and evil.
1. In the Bible, the term heart refers to the “whole man, with all his attributes, physical, intellectual, and psychological.” (New Bible Dictionary) The meaning of mind, in contrast, is usually limited more specifically to mental abilities.
So the term heart refers to the governing center of man, that part of him that is often referred to with such terms as character, personality, will, and mind. Heart is therefore a broader and more inclusive term than mind. In the New Testament, heart is fundamentally synonymous with person. Back To Article
Martian………I disagree with his findings completely. First he say, can we depend on logic alone to lead us to Faith, Then proceeds to give his rendition of What one would percieve as beautiful and another would not, then tries to weave this into what is Logical to one is not logical to another, but fails to see that LOGIC (IS) what both are using to draw a conclusion. Also beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, One person “Logical” view is not necessarily another's “Logical” view, it depends on the perspective of each. Logic is not the issue he is dealing with, Perspective is the issue. He also suggests Faith is not logical, Then concedes there is some logic to Faith, Then he said No one can devise a Logical Proof for Faith , beauty, and Love. By him saying there is no LOGICAL PROOF of FAITH, Means to me He has None or very little, and if he have no logical reason to love someone then he simply has no love. What he is trying to do is separate Logic from his actions as if some Miracle causes it all to happen. By separating Logic and Intellect from what God does he is in effect establishing a form of MYSTERY RELIGION , things taking place without reason or logic . God does (NOT) expect us to believe (NOTHING) we can't Prove (EVEN HIM), that is what most religions are today they are (SUPPOSITIONS) having no reality attached to them. But we are told to (PROVE) ALL THINGS> That does not mean believe in unprovable and illogical and unintelligible mysterious “beliefs”, That is exactly what False religion is, Jesus and the Apostles did not die for some unprovable irrational, illogical assumption of theirs. Trust me they had solid and Logical Proofs, they were not walking out on a weak lime when they put their life into the hands of their Faith.
The person who wrote the article is coming from a MYSTERY Religious premise, Nearly all religion want some kind of Mystery concept to function and call it Faith when in fact it is suppositions, and has nothing to do with true faith at all.
martian….> go over what he wrote and consider it carefully it is full of contradictions. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….always enjoy your commits and posts……………gene
PS…Wish Con or Jodi would commit on this subject. Kerwin brings out good points also.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 30 2009,13:50) Martian………I disagree with his findings completely. First he say, can we depend on logic alone to lead us to Faith, Then proceeds to give his rendition of What one would percieve as beautiful and another would not, then tries to weave this into what is Logical to one is not logical to another, but fails to see that LOGIC (IS) what both are using to draw a conclusion. Also beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, One person “Logical” view is not necessarily another's “Logical” view, it depends on the perspective of each. Logic is not the issue he is dealing with, Perspective is the issue. He also suggests Faith is not logical, Then concedes there is some logic to Faith, Then he said No one can devise a Logical Proof for Faith , beauty, and Love. By him saying there is no LOGICAL PROOF of FAITH, Means to me He has None or very little, and if he have no logical reason to love someone then he simply has no love. What he is trying to do is separate Logic from his actions as if some Miracle causes it all to happen. By separating Logic and Intellect from what God does he is in effect establishing a form of MYSTERY RELIGION , things taking place without reason or logic . God does (NOT) expect us to believe (NOTHING) we can't Prove (EVEN HIM), that is what most religions are today they are (SUPPOSITIONS) having no reality attached to them. But we are told to (PROVE) ALL THINGS> That does not mean believe in unprovable and illogical and unintelligible mysterious “beliefs”, That is exactly what False religion is, Jesus and the Apostles did not die for some unprovable irrational, illogical assumption of theirs. Trust me they had solid and Logical Proofs, they were not walking out on a weak lime when they put their life into the hands of their Faith. The person who wrote the article is coming from a MYSTERY Religious premise, Nearly all religion want some kind of Mystery concept to function and call it Faith when in fact it is suppositions, and has nothing to do with true faith at all.
martian….> go over what he wrote and consider it carefully it is full of contradictions. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….always enjoy your commits and posts……………gene
PS…Wish Con or Jodi would commit on this subject. Kerwin brings out good points also.
I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the article but it did make me think. I still must disagree with you about spirit = intellect.
Intellect has no bearing on character. Having intellectual prowess does not insure having good character. Intellectualism has no effect on the conscience. A person can have an active viable conscience with or without great intellectual ability.
Intellect has no effect on the quickening of our mortal bodies. Our bodies can be very sick while we have super ability intellectually.
The guiding of the “spirit” does not always involve the intellect. Let me give an example. several years ago I was out of work. A single dad raising two children. I was driving an old beater and taking my boys to school one day it broke down in the middle of an intersection. I started laughing. My boys ask why and I told them I was going to get a new car. I had no idea “intellectually” how that was going to happen. I had no extra money and did not expect any to come in. I got my car home and my father called. He had cashed in an insurance policy he bought for me when I was 1 year old. He did not know my car broke down. It was enough money to buy a different car and to see me through till I found work. These sort of things are not produced or understood by the intellect.
Just a few thoughts.martian………it says “So a man thinks so he (IS). So GOD thinks So HE (IS). GOD thinks at a much higher level then we think at. and is a cohabitant with us in our bodies, he considers us temples. Now God could have been the source of you car being supplied to you , “for he works all things for our good of them he loves. I have many time in my life experience His Hand of Mercy and Patience with me. But that still does not disprove (intellect being Spirit) . Jesus said the (WORDS) I am telling you (ARE) Spirit and life. So all we need to do is understand what a (WORD) is and we will have the definition of What SPIRIT is. A word is the expression of INTELLECT a person has about a given subject. We are told toe try the Spirits to see if they are of GOD. What are we trying , is it not His words, and is not the WORD of GOD being sown as His seed into us, causing our intellects to rise to a higher lever of thinking or though, through this enlightenment. God's presents in us is through his Spirits (intellects) working (HIS) WILL in us, this all operates though the mind. Now if we expand that to understand there exist (NO) thought apart from GOD, he is aware of every thought of our mind and knows our intellects, each having his own, given by GOD. He also holds us accountable for what he knows we Know. There are Seven Particular intellects (Spirits) of GOD and these are connected with POWERS , Jesus now has all seven of them in Him, these intellect are the eyes of GOD that go through out the whole earth. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (martian @ Nov. 29 2009,04:52) Gene,
I have agreed with you on many subjects but I fear you are a bit off track here. The hebrew word for heart means “the authority within”. Our intelect is not where we are supposed to be making decisions. There is a paradine shift that is supposed to happen where we live by the moving of God's breath upon our heart.It is about an attitude of the heart. It is not srictly about obeying and certainly not about mental ascending to some consciousness outside of the heart.
Hi:It is the life that a man lives that determines who he is, and so, yes, it is a matter of the heart.
God has a mind which is intellect, but it by His Spirit that His thoughts are made known to us. It is the Spirit that leads us into all truths.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……..Indeed it is the Spirit (intellect) of GOD being made Know to us , truth is also an aspect of Gods intellect.
we are being renewed in our minds by Intellect being added to us by GOD'S Words which (ARE) Spirit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
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