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Adam……..The word used as he in the text can be said as (IT) the Holy spirit is (NOT) a person (IT) is intellect or Thought and If the word (HOLY) is attached to It , it becomes (GOD'S SPIRIT) Or GOD'S Mind, remember where it says let the (MIND) be in you that was also in Christ Jesus our Lord. (God) Himself is a (SPIRIT) HOLY SPIRIT, and He reckons us as temples He can cohabit and live in. He (GOD HIMSELF) was (IN) Jesus and HE can be in us to, via His Spirit. And if He is then He is guiding you thoughts and mind your very intellect is being influenced and guided by HIM as Jesus' was. Jesus said the (WORDS) are (SPIRIT) words are not persons or beings therefor Spirit is not a person or being either. Spirit is words which is an expression of intellect and thoughts in our minds. You yourself are an intellect of thoughts living in a body of flesh and that part of you is Not physical but spiritual, and can not die, but returns from where it can when our bodies die.
Another way of seeing it is as if you took all the word ever uses and said we can all share them , which indeed we can, all these words are not individual beings but they are individual (words) which effect our intellects and thoughts, and reside in your mind and give you thought and you express those thoughts in words also and you can communicate with others who have these words in them also. God gives us His thoughts , which direct our hearts to be like Him, God is not separate from His words which are Spirit. If you have His words in you, you have GOD in you and the same words were in Jesus. Anyway that the way i now see it brother.
love and peace to you and yours Adam………………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2008,16:19) These verses clearly say that the Holy Spirit is other than Father & Jesus and also Jesus is able to send him.
Adam,You're not alone, I have pondered this idea as well. That who God is – is his holy “Spirit”, but that there is a different “Spirit” that he sends out. And why not? He could do anything he wishes, right? Some scripture does allow for this rabbit trail thought process……. I call it a rabbit trail because there is not enough scriptural evidence to fully support it. But the idea is slightly hidden there, I agree.
Gb,
You say
“Another way of seeing it is as if you took all the word ever uses and said we can all share them , which indeed we can, all these words are not individual beings but they are individual (words) which effect our intellects and thoughts, and reside in your mind and give you thought and you express those thoughts in words also and you can communicate with others who have these words in them also. God gives us His thoughts , which direct our hearts to be like Him, God is not separate from His words which are Spirit. If you have His words in you, you have GOD in you and the same words were in Jesus. Anyway that the way i now see it brother.love and peace to you and yours Adam………………gene”[/quote]
A brave new doctrine.
Why not rely on what is written?
It is a far better foundation than your derivationspssst Spirit is not intellect
I don't think Gene's post is a new doctrine at all; I've heard it before. The BU's support a lot of what he is sharing here. I also agree with some of it.
He goes on a bit about “words being spirit” but I think you can grasp what he is trying to say. We obviously need to be able to understand one another. We cannot communicate spirit-to-spirit, in other words (no pun intended).
Hi not3,
Scripture is our guide
Not weak human speculations.
Adding derivations to what is written divides.Another denomination appears
Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,18:01) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2008,16:19) These verses clearly say that the Holy Spirit is other than Father & Jesus and also Jesus is able to send him.
Adam,You're not alone, I have pondered this idea as well. That who God is – is his holy “Spirit”, but that there is a different “Spirit” that he sends out. And why not? He could do anything he wishes, right? Some scripture does allow for this rabbit trail thought process……. I call it a rabbit trail because there is not enough scriptural evidence to fully support it. But the idea is slightly hidden there, I agree.
Thanks Mandy,
Whenever somebody brings the issue of the Holy Spirit I get all these queries for which no answer so far I could find.Love to you
AdamQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:40) Hi not3,
Scripture is our guide
Not weak human speculations.
Adding derivations to what is written divides.Another denomination appears
I think what you are calling speculations are really just Gene's interpretation of scripture…..and it doesn't agree with your interpretation!
Why don't we ask Nicodemus John 3:8 ” The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but can not tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. God is invisible and so is His Holy Spirit. When we are born again we receive God's Holy Spirit and only then do we understand the things of God. We are now the temple of God. He now lives in us. He is still invisible but since our minds are being renewed others should be able to tell that we are diffrent now. We are changing. Sin becomes a hateful event for me. It conflicts with God's Holy Spirit. Since we have a Mediator Jesus Christ we can go to God's Throne and ask for the forgiveness of that Sin and it is forgiven me. All is peaceful once more. That at least it should be, if you are growing in Christ. We do still sin John tells us if we think we do not sin the truth is not in us. Sometimes I sin and geh I did it again, that is how fast it goes. But as we grow, we become better. It is those sins that we are not aware of that frighten me. Sometimes it takes some time, if others for instant are around that, God will show you. Gossip is a real hard one with others. That's all.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,18:44) Hi GM,
Was God in heaven when God was in Christ?
Hi GM,
God was ever in heaven but God by His Spirit was in Christ and now in us.
So how does the writer speak of God as Spirit without causing more confusion?
So the Spirit is spoken of in creation like another, even though it is of God.I agree brother Nick with your logic but many times I am left with these questions on the Holy Spirit. Please understand me. The language of John in the fourth Gospel is so much confusing to me on the Holy Spirt; how he uses words like “sending the Holy Spirit by Father or Jesus” or “another comforter” or “Father and Jesus abiding in us”
Hi ALL
The Holy Spirit is not just some magical amorphous impersonal Spirit.
In fact to depersonalize the Spirit by reducing him to an “it” or a “thing” I think does serious violence to the scriptures and insults the Lord who is that Spirit.
This subject is another reason why biblically the Trinitarian view is the only view that can reconcile all of the scritpures, IMO.
I will post an early discussion with LU on this subject.
Here it is…
Hi LU
You say…
Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)
Hello WJ and Nick I think this might interest you too:In these following three passages we see they refer to the same teaching written by three different men, Matthew, Mark, and Luke inspired by the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of the Father. See for yourself even in the Greek.
Matt 10:16-21
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 “But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER who speaks in you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.Mark 13:9-13
9 “But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. 10 “The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 “When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever * is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the HOLY SPIRIT. 12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.Luke 12:11-12
11 “When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12 for the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”Let's look closer and notice the Greek:
Matt 10:20
“For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
ou gar umeiv este (5748) oi lalountev (5723) alla to pneuma tou patrov umwn to laloun (5723) en umin.pneuma tou patrov is translated “Spirit of your Father.”
Mark 13:11
“When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever * is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
kai otan agwsin (5725) umav paradidontev, (5723) mh promerimnate (5720) ti lalhshte, (5661) all' o ean doqh (5686) umin en ekeinh th wra touto laleite, (5720) ou gar este (5748) umeiv oi lalountev (5723) alla to pneuma to agion.pneuma to agion is translated “the Holy Spirit.”
12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
to gar agion pneuma didacei umav en auth th wra a dei (5904) eipein. (5629)to agion pneuma is translated “the Holy Spirit”.
Of course the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, just as it is the Spirit of Yeshua and the Spirit is “another, the Parakletos.
Yet there is only One Spirit, that is the point. Not three Spirits, Father, Yeshua and Parakletos.
We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit – Comforter – Holy Spirit that are terms being used in speaking of *God dwelling in our Body* the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.
That “ONE Spirit” is not only called the above, but also the following.
*The Spirit of God*
Matt 3:16, Matt 12:28, Rom 8:9,14, 15:19, 1 Cor 2:11, 14, 3:16, 7:40, 12:13, Eph 4:30, Jn 4:2
*The Spirit of Jesus*
Gal 4:6, Acts 16:7, Rom 8 9,10, 2 Cor 3:16-18, Phil 1:19, 1 Peter 1:11
*The Holy Spirit or Comforter or Holy Ghost*
Lk 3:16, 11:13, 1 Thess 4:8, Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:13-15, Matt 28:19, Mark 1:8, 3:29, Lk 1:15, Jn 7:39, Jn 20:22, Acts 1:5, 1:8, 2:33, 10:38, 13:2
These terms are used synonymously and are referring to the “ONE God”, and yet we know they are different persons.
The Apostles speak of them interchangeably! And clearly they are not always referring to the Father or to the Son, for they may be saying “Spirit of Christ” “Spirit of Jesus” “Spirit of God” “The Spirit” “Holy Spirit” Spirit of the Son” “His Spirit” “Holy Ghost” “One Spirit” “Spirit” “Comforter” “Spirit of Truth” “Finger of God” “Living Water” “Life giving Spirit”
Yet the Word clearly says there is only “One Spirit”. Since we know there is only “One God”, then we have to conclude that the “One Spirit” is the “One God”.
The following scriptures bear this oot…
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
10 And if *Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by *his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.Now we see most of the terms I mentioned earlier in Rom 8:9,10,11. A close look at these scriptures shows Paul uses the terms interchangeably to describe the “One Spirit”.
They are all living within true believers.
Look and see!
*Father*
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as *God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them*; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.*Son*.
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates?*Holy Spirit*.
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the *Holy Ghost which is in you*, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Jn 16:
14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,18:55) No it confuses you because you reject certain scriptures that clearly show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)
There ya go. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit OF the Father, not the spirit of another person or even itself a person. Scriptural evidence at last.
Oh, so have you changed your belief since we started this discussion?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,01:48)
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the personal spirit of God the Father.But now you say “The Holy Spirit is not the Father”.
Yes of course, like the JWs the Spirit of God is just a mindless, amorphous and magical force or power. This “it” or “thing” as you call it, (which is a violation of every grammatical rule in Greek and English) has no will, or cannot be grieved, or quenched, or cannot make intercession for us according to the will of the Father, (Of course if it had no will then why would “it” or the “thing” be making intercession according to the will of God?). In fact the Holy Spirit has all the attributes of God, including “Omnipresence”, Omniscience and Omnipotence, yet the Arians would degrade “it” to something less than a human who has emotions and a will and intellect.
In fact even animals have personality!
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom 5:5
I just would like to know how an “it” or a “thing” can give me Love, especially God’s love?
In fact how can an “it or “thing” do any of the things spoken of in the scriptures. An “it” or a “thing” can be lied to, “it can be blasphemed”, “it” can be resisted and on and on. No, he is the “Comforter” the (parakletos), which means;
Here is the definition again… “Parakletos” is “Masculine noun” that means;
1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
1) of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
In fact John even uses the word in describing Yeshua here…
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1
To depersonalize the Spirit by reducing him to an “it” or a “thing” I think does serious violence to the scriptures and insults the Lord who is that Spirit.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)
We can now put an end to that confusion. '”Poof be gone” I say to all this confusion!! Hallelujah!Yes, I am sure you think that you have solved the debate that has been going on for centuries between the “Arians” and the “Trinitarians”, by just a couple of scriptures. “Poof be gone” like the magical amorphous Spirit that “it” or “thing” that lives in us and mindlessly does all of the wonderful things he does. Sorry, but no “it” or “thing” lives in me. That would be confusion!
The Lord who is that Spirit lives in me. Hallelujah!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29) Just trying to help,
LUI am sure that you are sincere, but you leave a lot of unanswered questions, especially when it comes to these scriptures…
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, ( parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16
Have a good day, WJ
THere is only ONE spirit mentioned in the bible…the spirit of GOD aka the holy spirit…
1 Corinthians 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.DK…….Spirit is indeed drink and we drink it in through the Words or intellect of GOD that Jesus had and we also can have, God is only ONE Spirit or Mind with it own intellect, and if this mind be in you as it was in Jesus (IT) will quicken you mortal body also. We do not recieve the mind of Jesus, we recieve the same mind that Jesus had in Him also. ONE GOD, who is HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY INTELLECT given to us from ONE FATHER who is the ONLY True GOD. GOD (IS) a SPIRIT, Just as Jesus Said He was and He also said the (WORDS) i am TELLING you (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE. So Ask yourself what is a (WORD) it is a expression of our mind or intellect. HOLY SPIRIT is GOD'S MIND and this mind was in Jesus and can be in us Also, (ONE) God in (ALL) and Through (ALL), not two or three separate persons or beings, Just ONE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL.
Love and peace to you and your DK………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 17 2008,03:08) DK…….Spirit is indeed drink and we drink it in through the Words or intellect of GOD that Jesus had and we also can have, God is only ONE Spirit or Mind with it own intellect, and if this mind be in you as it was in Jesus (IT) will quicken you mortal body also. We do not recieve the mind of Jesus, we recieve the same mind that Jesus had in Him also. ONE GOD, who is HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY INTELLECT given to us from ONE FATHER who is the ONLY True GOD. GOD (IS) a SPIRIT, Just as Jesus Said He was and He also said the (WORDS) i am TELLING you (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE. So Ask yourself what is a (WORD) it is a expression of our mind or intellect. HOLY SPIRIT is GOD'S MIND and this mind was in Jesus and can be in us Also, (ONE) God in (ALL) and Through (ALL), not two or three separate persons or beings, Just ONE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. Love and peace to you and your DK………………gene
I see what you are getting at…I just think what the bible talks about is more than “GOD's mind”Remember YHWH means “he causes to become”
Nick………..if you would spend more time on the subject being discussed , instead trying so desperately to discredit me and other you might be more effective in you job. Your lack of scriptural understanding is apparent you don't even know the difference between a FEAR religion you preach, and a Religion Lead by the LOVE of GOD> Which (CASTS OUT FEAR). Maybe you should get that straight first and you might see clear enough to Help on topics being discussed here. IMO
peace…………….gene
DK……The MIND of GOD (IS) life it self, “let this (MIND) be in you” , and (IF) this (MIND) be in you which was (ALSO) in Jesus Christ our lord (IT) shall quicken YOU mortal Body. So what brings us back to LIFE, (this MIND) that was also in Jesus. That mind contains POWER because it is the MIND of GOD and because it is GOD”S MIND it has GOD'S PRESENTS ALSO. GOD was truly in JESUS , there were two minds in that body< one was Jesus' mind which had a WILL of it's own, and One was GOD'S Mind which had a WILL of it's OWN. Jesus Put HIS Will to death, the same as we Have to do and follow God's Mind and WILL. God Mind is expressed through His Words as Jesus said, the words i am telling you (which by the way were not His words as He said) (ARE) SPIRIT AND LIFE.
love and peace to you and your DK…………………………gene
Nick……That's not the mind of Jesus, it;s the mind of GOD being expressed through Jesus by words. Nick what do we do with all the other Prophets God Spoke through and all the disciples and Apostles Should we just throw them out, because Jesus didn't say every thing they did. Do you think the Spirit of GOD was not guiding them and giving them revealed Knowledge and understanding also. The mind of God is GAINED by GOD giving it to you. Many people read GOD word every day and have no idea what it really means.
peace………………….gene
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