The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Gene,
Thanks again for your care to reply me. I agree with you as far as the Seven Spirits of God as the manifestations of God's power. I still can not get the relationship of Jesus' glorification with the giving of Holy Spirit to us (Jn 7:37-39).

one more thing Jesus said in Jn 14:23-24

23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me”

Please see the verse 23, Jesus says Father and himself make their abode in us, question here is If the Holy Spirit is Father's (personal) Spirit how can Jesus will also abide in us along with father?
Thanks for your patience.
Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6

Wow. The “eyes” of the Lamb are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

We know who the Lamb is. The seven Spirits are Yeshua's eyes. Notice the Lamb “stood” not as one dead but as one who “had” been slain but is now alive.

If the Lamb was dead then the seven Spirits would be a dead lambs eyes.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wj……if a person or spirit cant speak of it's own, you have to ask why cant it, the only answer imo is it does not have its own Will or it could speak of it own. because a person can speak of his own self, but the comforter can't why then.

If you understand that the comforter is part of GOD then it makes sense, it is part of God in you that comforts you. For God works in us to both will and do (HIS) good Pleasure. Why do you think Jesus said the Father (IN) Me HE DOTH THE WORKS. God was truly in Jesus as a separate entity and some times spoke (FIRST PERSON) through Jesus' mouth. It's all simple if you understand it. ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL, not two or three triune anythings.

I really believe WJ if you think about it you can easily put it together with the knowledge you have of scriptures. Unless your being prevented some how, and if thats the case I don't blame you for your stance. In fact I admire you for saying what you believe even if in my opinion its wrong.

blessings…………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Gollamudi……..Yes Jesus and the Father are one in Spirit and its the same Spirit that Jesus yielded to by putting (HIS WILL) to death Now if He put his (WILL) to death whats left the Spirit of God that was in Him, Therefore He no longer has a separate will so He could easily say we will come unto you, and when we finely put our will totally to death we can say the same thing, because there will only be ONE WILL EXPRESSED and That's GODS WILL.

When Jesus appeared in Revelations as a Slain Lamb this symbolized His WILL as slain, and the only WILL left was GOD”S Will Hence the Seven spirits of God was the Only WILL in Him,this is what it meant when it said the fullness of the godhead dwelt in him, notice it says dwelt in him not that it was him, this is what the Father will do in Us also in time, so we can truly exist in His image, So that in the kingdom only ONE WILL, will BE DONE>thy kingdom come (THY) WILL be done. It all makes sense if you think about it.

peace to you and yours Adam…………..gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 18 2008,02:20)

My question is very simple, are the seven spirits possessed (had) by Jesus or the Lamb the literal seven Spirits of God?

Hi GM,
Jesus now has all authority under God.
Angels of all kinds are subject to him and work for him.

Heb1

When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,05:38)

Wj……if a person or spirit cant speak of it's own, you have to ask why cant it, the only answer imo is it does not have its own Will or it could speak of it own. because a person can speak of his own self, but the comforter can't why then. If you understand that the comforter is part of GOD then it makes sense, it is part of God in you that comforts you. For God works in us to both will and do (HIS) good Pleasure. Why do you think Jesus said the Father (IN) Me HE DOTH THE WORKS. God was truly in Jesus as a separate entity and some times spoke (FIRST PERSON) through Jesus' mouth. It's all simple if you understand it. ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL, not two or three triune anythings. I really believe WJ if you think about it you can easily put it together with the knowledge you have of scriptures. Unless your being prevented some how, and if thats the case I don't blame you for your stance. In fact I admire you for saying what you believe even if in my opinion its wrong. blessings…………….gene

GB

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,05:38)

Wj……if a person or spirit cant speak of it's own, you have to ask why cant it, the only answer imo is it does not have its own Will or it could speak of it own. because a person can speak of his own self, but the comforter can't why then.

Yes I see, that is the same logic you use on Yeshua. That his words are not his own, yet he claims in many places that they are his own.

The point is the Spirit does not speak on his own because he only speaks what he hears from Yeshua and the Father and takes from Yeshua and gives to us. The Spirit is subservient to Yeshua. Is the Father subservient to Yeshua? So it cant be the Fathers personal Spirit and it cant be Yeshua's personal Spirit. Yet we know there is One Spirit.

But if we take your stance then we would be saying that Yeshua is not a person either because he cannot speak on his own.

The Spirit makes intercession for us according to the will of God. Not that he doesnt have a will or is not “Another” as the scriptures say, but because he only does the will of the Father and the Son.

There is no disparity in God. The Father is Spirit, Yeshua is Spirit, and the Parakletos is Spirit, yet we have recieved “One Spirit.

There is no other way to see it.

IMO.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,03:23)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2008,19:35) That's a great post WJ, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. Kudos. Isa 1:18 Thanks! I guess I am passionate about this because scriptures so clearly teach that the Spirit is not an amorphous “it” or “thing”. But in fact “the Lord is that Spirit”. It seems that many want to just close their eyes to this truth and hold on to man made Arianistic concepts. Truly, I believe it is all in their quest to deny the Trinitarian view. For to believe these scriptures as they are leaves them no choice but to accept the Trinitarian view. It is the only view that reconciles all of the contradictions that an antitrinitarian has to live with. IMO Blessings! WJ

Hi WJ,
So the Spirit is one of the three 'persons' in the SPIRIT?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,07:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,03:23) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2008,19:35) That's a great post WJ, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. Kudos. Isa 1:18 Thanks! I guess I am passionate about this because scriptures so clearly teach that the Spirit is not an amorphous “it” or “thing”. But in fact “the Lord is that Spirit”. It seems that many want to just close their eyes to this truth and hold on to man made Arianistic concepts. Truly, I believe it is all in their quest to deny the Trinitarian view. For to believe these scriptures as they are leaves them no choice but to accept the Trinitarian view. It is the only view that reconciles all of the contradictions that an antitrinitarian has to live with. IMO Blessings! WJ Hi WJ, So the Spirit is one of the three 'persons' in the SPIRIT?

NH

No. That would be like saying “God who is Spirit is in the Spirit”.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So the Spirit is not a person?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You said,
“One Spirit NH divinely and uniquily united together as One God.

Romans 8:9-11
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the **Spirit of God** dwell in you. Now if any man have not the **Spirit of Christ**, he is none of his.
And if **Christ be in you**, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him [Father] that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he [Father] that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

So The Holy Spirit is not one of the PERSONS you speak of here?
You have the Spirit of Christ and of the Father God as equivalent terms, but no other person?
Then why do you speak of a unity of three?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,03:23)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2008,19:35) That's a great post WJ, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. Kudos. Isa 1:18 Thanks! I guess I am passionate about this because scriptures so clearly teach that the Spirit is not an amorphous “it” or “thing”. But in fact “the Lord is that Spirit”. It seems that many want to just close their eyes to this truth and hold on to man made Arianistic concepts. Truly, I believe it is all in their quest to deny the Trinitarian view. For to believe these scriptures as they are leaves them no choice but to accept the Trinitarian view. It is the only view that reconciles all of the contradictions that an antitrinitarian has to live with. IMO Blessings! WJ

Hi WJ,
So you find no difficulties with a trinity view of God?
It answers all your questions and satisfies every understanding?

So to whom do you pray?
Jesus told us to pray to the Father and not any other god.

[Worshipping Jesus]

NH

Where does Yeshua say to pray to the Father only?

How about this…

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Cor 1:2

You do call upon the name of the Lord Jesus dont you NH?

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………the spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the Father. Jesus put His Will to Death and when his will died He died as a separate being. Then the only thing left was the spirit of the Father He became one with GOD this way. Therefore if it says the spirit of Christ or the Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Father it's all (ONE SPIRIT). That God may be ALL and IN ALL>It's just that simple. There are no Separate GOD'S and there are no Separate WILL'S. There is ONLY ONE GOD AND ONLY ONE WILL. That will be in ALL and THROUGH ALL.Not two or
three triune anything.

IMO……….gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2008,11:24)

NH Where does Yeshua say to pray to the Father only? How about this… Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Cor 1:2 You do call upon the name of the Lord Jesus dont you NH?

HI WJ,
So you should not pray to God but to the PERSONS?
I thought you said they were one God?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
WE follow Jesus.
Now where is it recorded that he prayed to himself?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,11:36)

Hi WJ, WE follow Jesus. Now where is it recorded that he prayed to himself?

NH

Same ole Arian twist.

Problem is you are not speaking to a “Modalist”.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
NO it is a serious question. When did he pray to himself or must you turn away from this one?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,11:47)

Hi WJ, NO it is a serious question. When did he pray to himself or must you turn away from this one?

NH

No I am not turning away from anything.

You are trying to force the word “Theos” to only mean the Father therfore you are saying that when Jesus prayed to God he must be praying to himself.

The word “theos” is not exclusive to the Father and in fact is simply a word that describes the nature of a being and not identity.

So your statement should be directed to a Modalist who believes the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is one identity manifesting himself in three ways or modes.

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………I quoted 10 or 12 scriptures where Jesus plainly said the words weren't His and i noticed you did not commit on them would you like me to requote them to you? Or can you just go back and read them and give us your commit on them. I am interested to see how you denie them, or divert what they say.

peace………..gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,05:59)

Gollamudi……..Yes Jesus and the Father are one in Spirit and its the same Spirit that Jesus yielded  to by putting (HIS WILL) to death Now if He put his (WILL) to death whats left the Spirit of God that was in Him, Therefore He no longer has a separate will so He could easily say we will come unto you, and when we finely put our will totally to death we can say the same thing, because there will only be ONE WILL EXPRESSED and That's GODS WILL. When Jesus appeared in Revelations as a Slain Lamb this symbolized His WILL as slain, and the only WILL left was GOD”S Will Hence the Seven spirits of God was the Only WILL in Him,this is what it meant when it said the fullness of the godhead dwelt in him, notice it says dwelt in him not that it was him,  this is what the Father will do in Us also in time, so we can truly exist in His image, So that in the kingdom only ONE WILL, will BE DONE>thy kingdom come (THY) WILL be done. It all makes sense if you think about it. peace to you and yours Adam…………..gene

Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for your response on this complicated subject “the Holy Spirit”. I agree that the Spirit which was in Jesus was the Father's Spirit. On Jesus' glorofication he also became a life-giving spirit (1 Cori 15:45). See the verses in 2 Cori 3:16-18

16 “but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit”.

Now after glorification/resurrection Jesus became Spirit so he can be any where simultaneously as he said “where two or three gathered in my name I will be in their midst”(Matt 18:20) and also Paul said “it's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”. Jesus said that he will ask the Father to send another comforter which is the Holy Spirit” then he goes on to say “and the Father will send the comforter in his(Jesus) name”

My point here is if at all there is a link between Jesus' glorification and sending of the Holy Spirit it must be with Jesus becoming that very Spirit as mentioned in 1 cori 3:17 as “now the Lord is the Spirit”. As you rightly told the fullness of divinity dwells in Jesus bodily(now) which is the will of the Father. Therefore I understand that the Holy Spirit or another comforter is none but Jesus in Spirit living in us as it was rightly mentioned in Gal 4:6

6″Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Finally the “One Spirit” with which we are all baptised is nothing but the “Lord's Spirit or Spirit of Jesus”. As the fullness of Father dwells in Jesus bodily Jesus is already united with Father's Spirit permanently. So there comes the word “we will come to him and take our abode in him”

This is what I wanted to share. I don't know whether is OK.
Please think over.
Peace to you
Adam

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