The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Hi GM,
No.
Demonic spirits travel from person to person.
Their work can proceed from men's mouths and in so doing defile those men.

Matthew 15:11
” It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Indeed they occupy men and Jesus came to cleanse such vessels so that their true occupant, the Spirit of God, can enter.

June 17, 2008 at 2:59 am#93099

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,06:12)

I agree with you as far as the Spirit manifests gifts differently. But you see clearly in Revelation even verses quoted by you the seven spirits are not symbolified. Show me where they are symobolified?

Gollamudi……Rev 5:6….>and i looked and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as through it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, (which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth).

Notice the lamb was portrayed as Slain (in other words it was as if it were dead How, because it had no Will of it's own it had put it's will to death, and was dead to it self completely, but was alive to God completely and therefore God gave him the seven horns (POWERS) and the seven eyes or (SPIRITS OF GOD) that go into all the earth.
The fullness of God is now in Jesus, like it will be in Us also. Some day. Jesus is the exact representation or Image of God Himself. But remember it says the seven spirits (OF GOD) not (OF) Jesus. The fullness of God indwells Jesus. But Jesus (Himself) is not God.

Peace to you and yours Adam……..gene

June 17, 2008 at 4:29 am#93107

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,18:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,10:22)

Hi WJ,
PERSON does not appear in scripture in realtionship to God.
It is added by the trinity doctrine to bolster some leaks.

But you say Jesus is a man and not God, yet you say he is One Spirit with God and he lives in you. So a person does live in you right?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,10:22)

God is in heaven.
His Spirit given to us in Christ manifests Him and His Son here.
The Amazing Spirit is described in language that confuses some but you should not make the Spirit a person.

No it confuses you because you reject certain scriptures that clearly show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Yet you say that he is the Father and the Son and only 2 the Father and the Son lives in you.

Matthew 10:16-42
Hello WJ and Nick I think this might interest you too:

In these following three passages we see they refer to the same teaching written by three different men, Matthew, Mark, and Luke inspired by the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of the Father. See for yourself even in the Greek.

Matt 10:16-21
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 “But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER who speaks in you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

Mark 13:9-13
9 “But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. 10 “The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 “When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever * is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the HOLY SPIRIT. 12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Luke 12:11-12
11 “When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12 for the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Let's look closer and notice the Greek:

Matt 10:20
“For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
ou gar umeiv este (5748) oi lalountev (5723) alla to pneuma tou patrov umwn to laloun (5723) en umin.

pneuma tou patrov is translated “Spirit of your Father.”

Mark 13:11
“When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever * is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
kai otan agwsin (5725) umav paradidontev, (5723) mh promerimnate (5720) ti lalhshte, (5661) all' o ean doqh (5686) umin en ekeinh th wra touto laleite, (5720) ou gar este (5748) umeiv oi lalountev (5723) alla to pneuma to agion.

pneuma to agion is translated “the Holy Spirit.”

12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
to gar agion pneuma didacei umav en auth th wra a dei (5904) eipein. (5629)

to agion pneuma is translated “the Holy Spirit”.

Quote

No it confuses you because you reject certain scriptures that clearly show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

There ya go. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit OF the Father, not the spirit of another person or even itself a person. Scriptural evidence at last.

We can now put an end to that confusion. '”Poof be gone” I say to all this confusion!! Hallelujah!

Just trying to help,
LU

June 17, 2008 at 4:34 am#93109

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)

There ya go. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit OF the Father, not the spirit of another person or even itself a person. Scriptural evidence at last.

I fully agree and thank you for your hard work.

June 17, 2008 at 5:06 am#93114

Participant

good stuff

June 17, 2008 at 5:14 am#93115

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2008,14:59)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,06:12)

Peace to you and yours Adam……..gene

Amen to that post, I thank you very much brother Gene

June 17, 2008 at 6:47 am#93118

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi LU

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)

Hello WJ and Nick I think this might interest you too:

Let's look closer and notice the Greek:

Matt 10:20
“For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
ou gar umeiv este (5748) oi lalountev (5723) alla to pneuma tou patrov umwn to laloun (5723) en umin.

pneuma tou patrov is translated “Spirit of your Father.”

pneuma to agion is translated “the Holy Spirit.”

12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
to gar agion pneuma didacei umav en auth th wra a dei (5904) eipein. (5629)

to agion pneuma is translated “the Holy Spirit”.

Of course the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, just as it is the Spirit of Yeshua and the Spirit is “another, the Parakletos.

Yet there is only One Spirit, that is the point. Not three Spirits, Father, Yeshua and Parakletos.

We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit – Comforter – Holy Spirit that are terms being used in speaking of *God dwelling in our Body* the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.

That “ONE Spirit” is not only called the above, but also the following.

*The Spirit of God*

Matt 3:16, Matt 12:28, Rom 8:9,14, 15:19, 1 Cor 2:11, 14, 3:16, 7:40, 12:13, Eph 4:30, Jn 4:2

*The Spirit of Jesus*

Gal 4:6, Acts 16:7, Rom 8 9,10, 2 Cor 3:16-18, Phil 1:19, 1 Peter 1:11

*The Holy Spirit or Comforter or Holy Ghost*

Lk 3:16, 11:13, 1 Thess 4:8, Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:13-15, Matt 28:19, Mark 1:8, 3:29, Lk 1:15, Jn 7:39, Jn 20:22, Acts 1:5, 1:8, 2:33, 10:38, 13:2

These terms are used synonymously and are referring to the “ONE God”, and yet we know they are different persons.

The Apostles speak of them interchangeably! And clearly they are not always referring to the Father or to the Son, for they may be saying “Spirit of Christ” “Spirit of Jesus” “Spirit of God” “The Spirit” “Holy Spirit” Spirit of the Son” “His Spirit” “Holy Ghost” “One Spirit” “Spirit” “Comforter” “Spirit of Truth” “Finger of God” “Living Water” “Life giving Spirit”

Yet the Word clearly says there is only “One Spirit”. Since we know there is only “One God”, then we have to conclude that the “One Spirit” is the “One God”.

The following scriptures bear this oot…

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
10 And if *Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by *his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

Now we see most of the terms I mentioned earlier in Rom 8:9,10,11. A close look at these scriptures shows Paul uses the terms interchangeably to describe the “One Spirit”.

They are all living within true believers.

Look and see!

*Father*

II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as *God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them*; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

*Son*.

II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates?

*Holy Spirit*.
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the *Holy Ghost which is in you*, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jn 16:
14 *He shall glorify me*: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 16 2008,18:55)

No it confuses you because you reject certain scriptures that clearly show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)

There ya go. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit OF the Father, not the spirit of another person or even itself a person. Scriptural evidence at last.

Oh, so have you changed your belief since we started this discussion?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,01:48)

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the personal spirit of God the Father.

But now you say “The Holy Spirit is not the Father”.

Yes of course, like the JWs the Spirit of God is just a mindless, amorphous and magical force or power. This “it” or “thing” as you call it, (which is a violation of every grammatical rule in Greek and English) has no will, or cannot be grieved, or quenched, or cannot make intercession for us according to the will of the Father, (Of course if it had no will then why would “it” or the “thing” be making intercession according to the will of God?). In fact the Holy Spirit has all the attributes of God, including “Omnipresence”, Omniscience and Omnipotence, yet the Arians would degrade “it” to something less than a human who has emotions and a will and intellect.

In fact even animals have personality!

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom 5:5

I just would like to know how an “it” or a “thing” can give me Love, especially God’s love?

In fact how can an “it or “thing” do any of the things spoken of in the scriptures. An “it” or a “thing” can be lied to, “it can be blasphemed”, “it” can be resisted and on and on. No, he is the “Comforter” the (parakletos), which means;

Here is the definition again… “Parakletos” is “Masculine noun” that means;

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid

a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate

b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor

1) of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins

c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant

1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

In fact John even uses the word in describing Yeshua here…

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

To depersonalize the Spirit by reducing him to an “it” or a “thing” I think does serious violence to the scriptures and insults the Lord who is that Spirit.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)

We can now put an end to that confusion. '”Poof be gone” I say to all this confusion!! Hallelujah!

Yes, I am sure you think that you have solved the debate that has been going on for centuries between the “Arians” and the “Trinitarians”, by just a couple of scriptures. “Poof be gone” like the magical amorphous Spirit that “it” or “thing” that lives in us and mindlessly does all of the wonderful things he does. Sorry, but no “it” or “thing” lives in me. That would be confusion!

The Lord who is that Spirit lives in me. Hallelujah!

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,16:29)

Just trying to help,
LU

I am sure that you are sincere, but you leave a lot of unanswered questions, especially when it comes to these scriptures…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, ( parakletos) , that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

Have a good day, WJ

June 17, 2008 at 7:35 am#93121

Is 1:18

Participant

That's a great post WJ, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. Kudos.

June 17, 2008 at 8:13 am#93122

Participant

Hi WJ,
Sandcastles look good but beware the tide.

June 17, 2008 at 9:48 am#93125

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,06:12)

Hi Nick, you have not replied this post of mine.
See Gene's post on this subject the Lamb is the one having seven Spirits of God as mentioned in Revelation 5.
What is your opinion?

June 17, 2008 at 10:11 am#93126

Participant

Hi GM,
I did not understand the question.
Rev5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Eyes observe.
Are they the Watching Angels?
Daniel 4:13
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:23
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

June 17, 2008 at 2:20 pm#93134

Participant

My question is very simple, are the seven spirits possessed (had) by Jesus or the Lamb the literal seven Spirits of God?

June 17, 2008 at 3:13 pm#93138

Participant

Gollmaudi………..Jesus said God is Spirit, notice He did not say (A Spirit) as many presume he is, the word (A) would imply a single Spirit but Jesus said Spirit which imply a plural sense. We also know God is Holy and therefore Holy Spirit is the Father Himself there is no separation between God the Father and His Holy Spirit, it says Howbeit when the comforter comes it will not speak of it's self, why? because it does not have a will of it's own, it only does the Fathers WILL because it is the Father, that is the Father in you by his very presents of Holy Spirit the same Spirit that was in Jesus. It does not say Jesus the Spirit in you, but the Spirit (of) Jesus, this means the Spirit Jesus had in Him, which was the God the Fathers spirit. There is no difference in the Spirit which was in Jesus and the Spirit in Us if we have that Spirit in Us, It's the same Spirit, it's the same God, Thats why it say (IF) the Spirit that was in Jesus Christ be in you (IT) will (Also) quicken your mortal body, Just like it did Jesus. There is only One God Composed of Seven Spirits that Goes through out all the earth and created everything there is, all composing one God , Who is the Father of all. He indwells His creation ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. Not two or three triune beings in forms or essences, to see it that way is to not see it at all, in my opinion. The Trinity is simply a false prescription of God.

peace to you and your……..gene

June 17, 2008 at 3:23 pm#93139

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2008,19:35)

That's a great post WJ, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. Kudos.

Isa 1:18

Thanks!

I guess I am passionate about this because scriptures so clearly teach that the Spirit is not an amorphous “it” or “thing”. But in fact “the Lord is that Spirit”.

It seems that many want to just close their eyes to this truth and hold on to man made Arianistic concepts.

Truly, I believe it is all in their quest to deny the Trinitarian view. For to believe these scriptures as they are leaves them no choice but to accept the Trinitarian view.

It is the only view that reconciles all of the contradictions that an antitrinitarian has to live with. IMO

Blessings! WJ

June 17, 2008 at 3:33 pm#93141

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi GB

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,03:13)

We also know God is Holy and therefore Holy Spirit is the Father Himself there is no separation between God the Father and His Holy Spirit, it says Howbeit when the comforter comes it will not speak of it's self, why? because it does not have a will of it's own, it only does the Fathers WILL because it is the Father, that is the Father in you by his very presents of Holy Spirit the same Spirit that was in Jesus.

Can you reconcile these two statements for me? Emphasis mine.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,03:13)

We also know God is Holy and therefore Holy Spirit is the Father Himself…

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,03:13)

it says Howbeit when the comforter comes it will not speak of it's self, why? because it does not have a will of it's own, it only does the Fathers WILL because it is the Father,

June 17, 2008 at 3:51 pm#93143

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,03:13)

peace to you and your……..gene

Thanks Gene,
For your new revelations on the Holy Spirit. You mean to say God the father is living in us through His Spirit also called the comforter (Holy Spirit). God can fill a portion of His Spirit in me and you and without measure in Jesus. Is it correct?
The seven Spirits of God are literal Spirits or they are the different manifestations of the same Spirit of God?
But what is the relationship of Jesus' glorification with the giving of Holy Spirit to us?
peace to you
Adam

June 17, 2008 at 4:41 pm#93147

Participant

To all………there is (ONLY) ONE GOD and (ONE) mediator between that ONE GOD and Us and that was the (MAN) Jesus Christ, Who had the (ONE) GOD in Him Who is HOLY SPIRIT. Not two or three separate entities in various forms or essences of any Kind. Even the top trinitarian Scholars themselves admit they don't Know how to explain the Trinity, they freely admit they are dealing with a Mystery of some kind and say when Hard pressed they really don't Know. At least the honest ones admit it any way.

Millard Erickson, “a highly respected and professor of theology, also admits this (Trinitarian) limitation, He refers in his book, GOD in three Persons, to another scholar's admission of “Ignorance” and his own on page 258: Stephen Davis has examined the major contemporary explanations of the TRINITY, and having them not to accomplish what they claim to do, has been (Honest) in acknowledging that he feels he is dealing with a (MYSTERY), in so doing has perhaps been more candid than many of us, who when pressed May have to admit that we really do not Know in what way God is one and in what different way he is three.”

How about that these Trinitarian Scholars Honestly admit they don't honestly Know about the way the trinity works, at least there are some trinitarians who can and do admit the truth.

Could it be they don't know how because the trinity is Just not true.

peace to all………..gene

June 17, 2008 at 5:04 pm#93148

Irene

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 18 2008,03:13)

peace to you and your……..gene

You explained that very nicely, and I agree with that 100%
Peace and Love be with you Irene

June 17, 2008 at 5:07 pm#93150