The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,16:47)

Which verb/verbs in the above would you like to know that about? Can you narrow it down for me?
From a quick look, there is a combination of active verbs and some middle voice verbs. I am not sure about passive verbs because I looked at just some of the verses. Maybe ask me about one verse at a time. If you are asking whether the Holy Spirit is doing the action of the verbs, well, from a quick look, yes for the most part. That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is a person though. It just means that it is actively doing the verb. The Holy Spirit is something that is functional and is functioning within us from God.

Quote

One more straight question to you:
Is the Holy Spirit personal Spirit of God the Father?

Yes, I believe so.

Let me know better how I can answer your quest.
LU

Hi kathi,
Thanks for your positive and quick response. In fact I put these questions to know from you in a trinitarian point of view. I also believe the Holy Spirit is from God the Father, because He is the source of all Spirits. But few more questions I am getting;
1. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is presonal spirit of God the Father why do some verses mention as Spirit of Jesus? for example Phil 1:19

19 “for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance”

and also Romans 8:9

9 “But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”

2. How can Fathwer's Spirit have subbordination role to Jesus as per Jn 16:13-15?
13
” But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
14
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
15
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

3. As per Trinitarian's view there is lot of scope for personification of the Spirit than the extension of the Father's Spirit itself. There are many places which mention the Spirit is acting as indipendent person for example 1 Cori 12:11

11 “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills”.

and also Rev 22:17

17 “The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price”

Can you please clarify how to understand them?
Love to you
Adam

June 16, 2008 at 1:48 pm#93011

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2008,06:26)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,16:47)

Quote

One more straight question to you:
Is the Holy Spirit personal Spirit of God the Father?

Yes, I believe so.

Let me know better how I can answer your quest.
LU

19 “for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance”

and also Romans 8:9

9 “But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”

11 “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills”.

and also Rev 22:17

17 “The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price”

Can you please clarify how to understand them?
Love to you
Adam

Hi Golla,
You are welcome. I am glad to agree on something with you.

Quote

1. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is presonal spirit of God the Father why do some verses mention as Spirit of Jesus? for example Phil 1:19

19 “for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance”

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the personal spirit of God the Father.

I believe that the Spirit of Jesus Christ is the personal spirit of the Son of God that was living within the Son of God since day one of creation.

I believe that each man has been given their own personal spirit that they are born with. It has been given to them by God and not their parents.

I believe that the Father put His Holy Spirit within His Son before He had begotten Him on day one of creation but that is a guess.

I believe that the Spirit of God has different functions but it does not function as the Spirit of the Son. With the Spirit of God in us we can learn truth and receive power and comfort and guidance and gifts and ministries and recognize God as our powerful Most High God, etc. With the Spirit of the Son (which is the same spirit as the Spirit of Jesus) we recognize God as our very own Father and not just our God.

I believe that just like there can be “one body” but many members (other bodies), there can also be “one spirit” but many members (other spirits). The Spirit of God unites with the Spirit of the Son as one spirit but each still has its own functions. Then the spirit flows from God through Jesus as one spirit, the two spirits united, that unites with our personal spirit which then becomes one spirit yet three. Each spirit continues to have its own functions.

I believe that each of the spirits: of God, of the Son, of man, are personified in scripture however they are not persons. It is through the inner spirit of God, of the Son, and of man that we connect with God and are intimate with each other. The Spirit of God is directed by the mind/will of God and does not direct itself but it does carry out its own functions. In other words it searches the deep things of God because that is one of its functions. It does not speak to us or send us guidance unless initiated by the mind and will of God, so it does not speak on its own initiative ever. The Spirit of God does not have its own will because it is not a person. The Spirit of the Son does not have its own will because it is not a person. The spirit of man does not have its own will because it is not a person. These spirits respond to the will of those that direct them. Also, quite possibly it is within our spirit where we feel our emotions.

Quote

9 “But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”

Fortunately, since the Spirit of God has united with the Spirit of the Son we receive both to unite with our spirit. All united as one but seperate in functions.

Quote

The Spirit of God is always controlled by the mind/will of the Most High God, our Heavenly Father. Jesus does not control it although the Father allows Him to send it. Jesus could not send the Spirit of God to live within us if the Father did not allow it.
And again regarding the spirit not speaking on its own, a spirit can't speak on its own, that is not its function. It merely passes on to us what God wants us to hear as it is directed by the mind/will of God.

Quote

11 “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills”.

and also Rev 22:17

17 “The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price”

In 1 Cor 12:11, if you read the context starting at v.1 you will see that the Spirit is the Spirit of God and that the “he” as in “he wills” is God Himself. Allow me to paraphrase here: The Spirit of God, who apportions to each one individually as God Himself wills.

In Rev 22:17
One commentary says
Verse 17. The Spirit and the bride
All the prophets and all the apostles; the Church of God under the Old Testament, and the Church of Christ under the New.

These are my thoughts Golla, and as you know, I am not infailable. Test them all you want.

June 16, 2008 at 2:30 pm#93012

Participant

Hi Kathi,
Thank you very much for your patience in replying my queries. I do have some leniency towards your view of believing that the One Spirit is God's Spirit which was also in His son jesus and is also called as Spirit of Christ or anointing. You see the verse Jn 4:13
13
“This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit”

God gives us a portion of His Spirit not that His full Spirit is in us which we can not bear. Paul says in Corinthians God gives His Spirit according our measure of faith. The problem here is when come to that “One Spirit” , how can God's Spirit and Jesus' spirit be counted as one?
Here only WJ repeatedly questions you and others that how many Spirits we have received?

One more thing I want to ask you, what is the relationship of Jesus' glorification with giving of Holy Spirit as mentioned in Jn 7:37-39
37
“On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink.
38
Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: 'Rivers of living water 14 will flow from within him.'”
39
He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified”

and also Jn 16:5-7
5
But now I am going to the one who sent me, and not one of you asks me, 3 'Where are you going?'
6
“But because I told you this, grief has filled your hearts.
7
But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you”

What is the relationship between Jesus' going and coming of the Holy Spirit?
Please throw some light on these questions.
Sorry to bother you repeatedly.
peace to you
Adam

June 16, 2008 at 2:33 pm#93013

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Gollamudi………..the way i see it is there are seven spirits of God and for that matter all spirits proceed forth from him and Spirit can combine with spirit, as in Jesus and our case, we both have the spirit of truth given to us from God the Father, this Spirit gives us the power to recognize truth and prevents us from being deceived, without it we can easy be deceived.

In fact a person doesn't even have to have a bible and if he hears some one talking about God He can recognize if its the truth or not by that spirit of truth in him, that why it says that this false teacher would even deceive the very (Elect) (IF) it were possible, but you see it's not possible to fool a person who has the spirit of truth in Him. That's why I am not worried about you being deceived by some on this site, it's because of the Spirit of truth in You.

I boils down to what is Spirit, to me Spirit is intellect and intellect is expressed in words, we are told to try the spirits to see if they are of God, the only one that can do that are the one who have the spirit of truth in them, other wise they could not do that. Jesus said the (words) i am telling you are spirit and are life, so you see the word is spirit and life. God is spirit and Gods words are life there the same < In the beginning was the (word)and the word was with God and the word (WAS) God.

Gods word and God are one and the same and they are Spirit. Now these Spirit words were in Jesus and if these Spirit words are in Us and abide in us there is no difference between Jesus and God and Us . For as he was in the world so are we, for His (GOD”S) seed abides in you, How? by that same spirit or word or seed, One God in ALL and Through All. Not two or three triune essences or persons or God Heads, Just ONE GOD THATS ALL> this is the way i understand it.

remember when Jesus said that, that they might be in Us and we in them, this all happens by (ONE) Spirit and ONE Truth expressed through Words.

Peace to you and yours………gene

June 16, 2008 at 3:56 pm#93017

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2008,10:30)

Hi Kathi,
Thank you very much for your patience in replying my queries. I do have some leniancy towards your view believing that the One Spirit is God's Spirit which was also in His son jesus and is also called as Spirit of Christ or anointing. You see the verse Jn 4:13
13
“This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit”

God gives us a portion of His Spirit not that His full Spirit is in us which we can not bear. Paul says in Corinthians God's gives Spirit according our measure of faith. The problem here is when come to that “One Spirit” , how can God's Spirit and Jesus' spirit be counted as one?
Here only WJ repeatedly questions you and others that how many Spirits we have received?

One more thing I want to ask you, what is the relationship of Jesus' glorification with givinfg of Holy Spirit as mentioned in Jn 7:37-39
37
“On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, “Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink.
38
Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: 'Rivers of living water 14 will flow from within him.'”
39
He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified”

What is the relationship between Jesus' going and coming of the Holy Spirit?
Please throw some light on these questions.
Sorry to bother you repeatedly.
peace to you
Adam

Hi Golla,
I believe that the Holy Spirit was in the Son of God from the get go although it was not something that He could give to others until He paid the price of our sins and laid down His flesh and blood body and was crucified. This sacrifice made it possible for us to be in fellowship with His Father by the Spirit of the Father which was united with the Spirit of Christ as one spirit. Before that, the Father was the only one who could give of His Spirit, Christ couldn't give it although He had it. Note that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit of God in the womb. That came directly from the Father and not through the Son.

Maybe the Spirit of God although powerful and full of truth was only a “saving” power AFTER it came through the Son. Before that it didn't have that “saving” function.

Quote

The problem here is when come to that “One Spirit” , how can God's Spirit and Jesus' spirit be counted as one?

The same way that there can be of “one mind” and “one body” yet there are many minds and many bodies. One mind with seperate functions. One body with seperate functions.
One spirit with seperate functions.

We can look to the “one body” as an example of how this principle plays out:
Romans 12:4+
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually * members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; 11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. 20 “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Php 1:27
Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel…

June 16, 2008 at 4:35 pm#93024

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,01:48)

I believe that each man has been given their own personal spirit that they are born with. It has been given to them by God and not their parents.

What has convinced you of this?
Thanks,
Mandy

June 16, 2008 at 5:39 pm#93025

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2008,02:33)

remember when Jesus said that, that they might be in Us and we in them, this all happens by (ONE) Spirit and ONE Truth expressed through Words.

Peace to you and yours………gene

Hi Gene,
Thanks for your encouraging and cautious words. Do you mean to say there are seven spirits as mentioned in Rev 3:1

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis, write this: ” 'The one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says this: “I know your works, that you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead”.

Jesus is the character in this verse who is having the seven spirits of God, the same was prophsied in Is 11:1-3

1 But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom.
2 The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD,
3and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD. Not by appearance shall he judge, nor by hearsay shall he decide”.

In the above verse there are only six types of Spirits mentioned, do you mean to say the seventh one is the Spirit of truth?
Hi brother, do you mean we have received only the Spirit of Truth out of seven which Jesus is possessing?
The “One Spirit” with which we are all baptised into the body of Christ is Spirit of Truth am I correct?
Jesus said I am the Truth and the Life, do you mean to say because Jesus was possessed by the Spirit of Truth he was called so?
But still I could not get reply to my questions by Kathi: what is the relationship of Jesus' glorification with the givng of (Holy)Spirit? and
What is the relationship between Jesus' going and the coming of the Holy Spirit(another comforter)?
Question after question hope you will understand my agony in understanding the “Holy Spirit”.
Peace to you
Adam

June 16, 2008 at 5:48 pm#93027

Participant

Hi LU,
Thanks for your quick response again, keep going in understanding the most important thing in our spiritual lives that is the “Holy Spirit”. See how the debate is going smoothly by the same Spirit which in all of us. please try to reply my post above if possible.
love to you
Adam

June 16, 2008 at 5:53 pm#93029

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,05:39)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 17 2008,02:33)

remember when Jesus said that, that they might be in Us and we in them, this all happens by (ONE) Spirit and ONE Truth expressed through Words.

Peace to you and yours………gene

Hi Gene,
Thanks for your encouraging and cautious words. Do you mean to say there are seven spirits as mentioned in Rev 3:1

Jesus is the character in this verse who is having the seven spirits of God, the same was prophsied in Is 11:1-3

Hi GM,
There are seven churches.
Each church has an angel over it.
Angels are scripturally called spirits.

Heb1
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

June 16, 2008 at 5:58 pm#93030

Participant

Hi Nick, see the verse in Rev 3:1 care fully the angel of the church is different from the seven spirits of God. Though I agree with your interpretation of angels as spirits but the one who is having seven spirits of God is Jesus he is really possessing the seven spirits of God as prophesied in Is 11:1-3. IMO

June 16, 2008 at 6:07 pm#93031

Participant

Hi GM,
Is 11
1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

This describes the nature of the ONE Spirit and not many.
1Cor12
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Rev3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Compare Rev1
20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So STARS scripturally can be angels.

June 16, 2008 at 6:12 pm#93033

Participant

I agree with you as far as the Spirit manifests gifts differently. But you see clearly in Revelation even verses quoted by you the seven spirits are not symbolified. Show me where they are symobolified?

June 16, 2008 at 6:55 pm#93037

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,12:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,01:48)

I believe that each man has been given their own personal spirit that they are born with. It has been given to them by God and not their parents.

What has convinced you of this?
Thanks,
Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Check out these passages:

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
1 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before * * the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”; 2 before * * the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain; 3 in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim; 4 and the doors on the street are shut as the sound of the grinding mill is low, and one will arise at the sound of the bird, and all the daughters of song will sing softly. 5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. 6 Remember Him before * * the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5-12
5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it, 6 “I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness, I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you, And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison *. 8 “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. 9 “Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.” 10 Sing to the LORD a new song, Sing His praise from the end of the earth! You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it. You islands, and those who dwell on them. 11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices, The settlements where Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of Sela sing aloud, Let them shout for joy from the tops of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory to the LORD And declare His praise in the coastlands.

Zechariah 12:1-8

1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

What do you think?
Kathi

June 16, 2008 at 6:57 pm#93038

Participant

Nick and Golla,
You might be interested in my above post to Mandy.
LU

June 16, 2008 at 6:59 pm#93039

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi GM

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,05:39)

Question after question hope you will understand my agony in understanding the “Holy Spirit”.
Peace to you
Adam

IMO there is only one view that reconciles all of the scritpural data, and that is the Trinitarian view.

Scriptures clearly teach there is only One Spirit, yet there are three that live in us.

All this confusion is created by denying certain scriptures while accepting others.

There is a whole lot less confusion between the Trinitarians faith and the Non-trinitarian. IMO.

June 16, 2008 at 7:35 pm#93040

Participant

Hi WJ,
The trinitarian view is not of scripture.
None of us have three in us but ONE Spirit.

June 16, 2008 at 7:57 pm#93042

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2008,14:55)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 16 2008,12:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2008,01:48)

I believe that each man has been given their own personal spirit that they are born with. It has been given to them by God and not their parents.

What has convinced you of this?
Thanks,
Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Check out these passages:

Zechariah 12:1-8

1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

What do you think?
Kathi

Hey Mandy and Nick,

If you didn't read these verses in the quote, you might want to read them.
The life of man doesn't seem to be different from one man to another and probably was given to Adam then passed down. However the spirit of man seems to be unique to the individual and therefore I think that would be specifically given to each person by God.

June 16, 2008 at 8:02 pm#93044

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2008,07:35)

Hi WJ,
The trinitarian view is not of scripture.
None of us have three in us but ONE Spirit.

I dont know what you have dwelling in you.

But I do know who is dwelling in me by the scritpures.

Father

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Cor 6:16

Son

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5

Holy Spirit (parakletos)

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you [b]another Comforter, ( parakletos) that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16, 17

Notice the Father dwelling in me and walking in me?

Notice that Jesus Christ is in me or I am reprobate?

Notice the “parakletos” is in me?

June 16, 2008 at 8:59 pm#93053