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Hi Berean,
YOU: Jesus bridged this gulf, and made a way for man to come to God.
ME: Jesus saved us from death, where in death we are separated from YHVH our heavenly Father, our one and only true God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance:Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
35:31 And he hath filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: 22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. 23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king’s matter…44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Berean, our heavenly Father’s Spirit has been at work upon the earth from the beginning, before and after Adam and Eve sinned.
His Spirit is at work all over the earth, if it were not so, we’d all be cavemen living as savages. Without his mercy we would live in a world of nothing but wickedness 24/7.
If your spirit reflects patience or kindness or self control, such is God’s Spirit at work in you. If you think this is not so then you believe in self-righteousness and you make yourself into a false god.
Not just attributes of a righteous character comes directly from God’s Spirit but wisdom and understanding as well. Even the cutting of stone and carving of timber is wisdom that came from God. God gives wisdom but if He does not also give righteous attributes it will be used for evil instead of good.
Our heavenly Father’s Spirit giving wisdom and understanding calls us into believing in the gospel, believing in Jesus Christ. The Father’s Spirit in us calls us to Christ.
Further, all kings and rulers of the earth and their boundaries throughout history all were established according to His will.
Berean, what you have said is the complete opposite of what is true. Our heavenly Father’s Spirit is at work upon the earth according to His will.
Jesus was begotten of YHVH’s Spirit without measure, he received all the gifts of the Spirit as well as the great powers of the Spirit. He was filled with the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, council and might, knowledge and fear of the YHVH our Creator. He was anointed of the Spirit to be sent out into the world to do YHVH’s works in His name and to fulfill His covenant, saving us from an eternal death. He was raised from the dead as a firstborn of many brethren where in him we do believe in YHVH our God, that we will be made into the image of His Son. We will also be Sons of God being led by the Spirit of God. We also will have God’s Spirit bear witness to our spirit that we are children of God. Jesus saved us from death, where in death we are separated from YHVH our heavenly Father, our one and only true God.
Hi Jodi,
Just to answer your two questions:
Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ did fulfill all righteousness. He he was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Yes, I believe that the Spirit of YHWH came on Jesus Christ after his baptism. But Jesus was already the Christ.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.And of course the fruit of the Spirit is truly in all goodness, righteousness and truth.
@ Jodi
You are WRONG
GOD AND the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD WERE TOGETHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
THAT IS WHAT JOHN SAY IN JOHN 1
AND 17
JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE BY WHOM THE FATHER ACT IN CREATION, REDEMPTION AND FINALY JUDGMENT.
God is my witness that I speak the truth.
Amen !
@DT
Are you okay with a corrupt version being used as truth? The question still remains unanswered, why would Jesus be reading from a Greek translation and not the original Hebrew? This doesn’t cause you to pause and question the veracity of what Luke wrote?
me
As I already told you, the Septuagint Bible is not my reference, it is the King James.
For Jesus, when he read in the synagogue, he read the scroll that was in that synagogue.
This is what Luke relates.And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
[17] And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
[18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
[19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.Hi Danny,
I hope you are doing better!
You provided,
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
To give proof that Jesus was already the Christ before his baptism at the river Jordan.
This is the passage that others including Proclaimer has given as proof.
I ask, were we saved by the birth of Jesus? Or is the text telling us that the baby Jesus is our promised savior where we know that he fulfilled becoming our savior upon his death?
Do you believe baby Jesus was lord and if so who was baby Jesus a master over and what did lord baby Jesus do as a master? Do you see where I am going with this?! Baby Jesus was not yet a savior, nor was he yet Christ our lord. Luke 2 is identifying baby Jesus as the human to whom God would fulfill in him Isaiah’s prophecies, he who would be anointed of God’s Spirit and he who would bare our sins on the cross.
When Jesus died on the cross he became our savior and he who was nailed to the cross was at that time most certainly Christ our lord.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed (mashach) me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound..
Mashach – to be anointed
Mashiyach- anointed one
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed (chrio) me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
chrio- to anoint
Christos- anointed
Jesus clearly became Mashiyach/Christos upon the Spirit descending from heaven coming to abode in him.
You: For Jesus, when he read in the synagogue, he read the scroll that was in that synagogue.
This is what Luke relates.Me: The point Berean is Jesus wouldn’t have been reading from a Greek translation in a synagogue. This is a corruption of the text and you don’t question it. Never mind the fact “Jesus” completely takes out of context what is being said in Isa 61, read it for yourself.
I keep tell all, when you see a quote from the OT to look it up to see if it matches; hopefully one day someone will actually do it.
@DT
I believe that Christ fulfilled all that was written in ISAIAH 61:1
And even though Luke adds more, I believe the Spirit of God guided him.
Jesus healed the physically blind many times (not to mention spiritual blindness)Hi Jodi,
Thanks. I know and feel that Jesus Christ came in me.
But still the battle goes on but I feel peace inside.
I understand your point about baby Jesus.
Honestly, I don’t have a problem if Jesus became the Christ at his baptism. If that’s what happened then Amen to that.
I just want the Bible truth. I’m open to correction.
There is a Bible verse that Proclaimer often cited 1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Doesn’t this mean that Jesus was already the Christ before coming in the flesh?You: I believe that Christ fulfilled all that was written in ISAIAH 61:1
Me: But the passage has nothing to do with Jesus; so you believe a lie…understood! What I find fascinating is you believe something you’re unable to explain.
If Jesus was the fulfillment of this, then Jesus would have brought the message God was going to do the following:
Comfort all those in mourning, give those the oil of joy instead of mourning, give those the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit, and be “planted” as oak of righteousness. Did God do this while Jesus was here?
The people are to rebuild ancient ruins, erect the former deserted places, restore devastated cities. Was this accomplished during or after Jesus was here?
It continues with the strangers tending their flock and foreigners tending their fields and vineyards; who is this “their” and why are strangers and foreigners doing the work for this people?
Then it explicitly states those being addressed will be called priests of God. Who are the “priests of God”?
This is the “good news” Isaiah is speaking of; did Jesus ever bring any of this news to the Israelite’s? The original Hebrew mentions nothing about the physical healing of the blind; yet, Luke inserts the phrase or does what you “believe” all that matters? But because you “believe” Luke was “inspired” to add this phrase in and change the word of God, it’s okay? Didn’t God say something about adding to or removing from HIS word.
I am truly amazed how you don’t see this and take no issue with the blatant corruption.
@DT
But the passage has nothing to do with Jesus; so you believe a lie…understood!
Me
ISAIAH WAS THE PROPHET OF THE TRUE GOD AND HE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH “JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS”
YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME WANTING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF THE CONTRARY, YOU ARE WORKING AGAINST GOD AND BY DOING THIS YOU ARE GOING TO PERDITION.
BUT THE DOOR OF GRACE IS STILL OPEN…SO REACT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME.Once again you have given nothing to refute or explain why I am wrong. I have explained why you’re wrong and have shown why you’re wrong; and every time you “counter” with cherry picked verses taken out of context. If you cannot substantiate what you believe, why do you believe it?
Because Jesus claimed Isa 61:1 was about himself, isn’t proof it’s about him; especially when the rest of the chapter is read in context. READ THE ORIGINAL AND SEE IF IT MATCHES YOUR PREFERRED TRANSLATION!
You: ISAIAH WAS THE PROPHET OF THE TRUE GOD AND HE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH “JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS”
Me: I read Isaiah speaking more about a “coming age of restoration” than an individual man.
You: YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME WANTING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF THE CONTRARY
Me: Why are you here? Aren’t you speaking to convince others your belief is the right one? Does this mean you’re also “wasting your time”?
You: YOU ARE WORKING AGAINST GOD AND BY DOING THIS YOU ARE GOING TO PERDITION.
Me: Working against God?!? On the contrary, I’m reading what God said and applying those words as they’re written. Your statement is an excellent example of the church misleading its followers through fear; as you state because I am “working against God”, I am going to “perdition.” When does God ever speak of an eternal place of torment? Remember, God spoke once in the NT and only said “this is my son…”; in the Tanakh HE gave commands and spoke thru the prophets all the time?
You: THE DOOR OF GRACE IS STILL OPEN
Me: God’s grace and mercy is open all the time and all you need to do is turn to HIM; you don’t need a middleman AND God definitely doesn’t need a “helper”! He’s God! He is the one who set the universe in motion and created everything, but needs a helper when it comes to sin?!?! Ez 33:11 “Say to them: As I live – the utterance of the Lord God – I surely do not desire the death of the wicked person. I do not desire that outcome; rather, I wish for the repentance of the wicked person from his way, that he live. Repent, repent your evil ways. Why should you die, house of Israel? The path of sin is not predetermined by fate. Each person is free to change his ways. Man himself bears responsibility at all times for rejecting evil and choosing good.” While this passage is directed at Israel specifically, God speaks often about repenting and turning from wickedness; nothing about believing in a man for salvation.
You: REACT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME
Me: Already have; have you turn to God alone or do you have idols that are between you and God?
Hi Danny,
Your view is very refreshing I must say, and I have most certainly over the years changed my position on things when presented with passages and then being mindful of the sum of all scriptures. When interpretations don’t cause contradictions but rather make things make more sense, to me that identifies what is true.
1 John 4:2, glad you brought that one up, haven’t discussed that one for awhile.
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
They key hear is the word “come”! He had “come” upon having been sent and so it is then crucial to hold the right context of these words, “come in the flesh”, through knowing WHEN he was sent.
Jesus said, “the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted…” and “for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”
We also read,
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Jesus did not come until after John the Baptist was preaching which directly aligns with when Jesus himself declared that he was sent. This is clear but it’s ignored by so many people and then they turn and teach what is directly a contradiction through false interpretations of other passages, (will speak to those in a moment).
Jesus was a human being, a man of the flesh and he became the Christ when he was anointed of the Spirit at the river Jordan and God then sent him out into the world. Such is then why we read “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”. This is being declared because people were saying he had come as otherwise, so it needed to be stated that he was none other than a man of flesh.
But some say, the sending was God having sent His Son down to earth where he was made into flesh.
But the text doesn’t say a pre-existing Son of God has come in the flesh, it says “Jesus” a human given the name Jesus and it says “Christ” one who God did anoint (Chrio) making him into the anointed (Christos). We are directly being given the understanding that in Jesus being anointed, this did not change what kind of being he was. A man walking on water or performing other miracles, one might conclude he’s some sort of supernatural “spirit being”, I could definitely see with man’s imagination all sorts of theories were circling about, but NO, he was none other than flesh.
Some say Jesus is a hybrid, some one of a kind being, fully God and yet also fully man, or a fully spirit Son and yet also fully man, no scripture teaches this, we are given the opposite, we are told that he is a human and upon his anointing he was still flesh.
Jesus upon being anointed and sent taught that he came down from heaven which is to say that he came directly to us down from God. God and heaven are used interchangeably, kingdom of heaven is God’s promised kingdom on earth and why it’s also called kingdom of God. Why “heavenly” mean’s the same thing as “godly”. Jesus is not saying that he literally came down from heaven, he most certainly does not teach of himself having existed before and then being changed into flesh.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Could Jesus really make that comparison if him being sent was him literally coming down from heaven? Jesus was anointed of the Spirit (without measure) and then was sent out into the world to do God’s work and then others received the Spirit (by measure) and were sent out to do God’s work. They are all, including Jesus, not of the world, they are from heaven/from God.
Looking forward to discussing this with you further!
Danny you said……..”Doesn’t this mean that Jesus was already the Christ before coming in the flesh?”
Danny, no it does not mean Jesus was Christ before his birth on this earth, he simply did not exist before he was born on this earth. But “YES”, he was already in the plan and Will of God the Father, from the foundations of the earth, and at the right time the FATHER BROUGHT HIM FORTH, INTO HIS “ONLY”, true existence, and “ANOINTED” him with his “HOLY SPIRIT”.
Danny, listen to JODI, she is telling it right, brother.
peace and love to you and yours Danny……….gene
@Gene
Concerning the pre-existence of Christ, I assure you that you are telling a big lie.
And I hope DD never swallows this snake that constantly appears on this thread.Hi Berean,
You can’t assure anything, you can’t even acknowledge the clear simple truth that God promised that He WAS GOING TO BECOME a Father unto a seed of David.
You go about interpreting passages making this word of God into a lie saying the opposite, not that a man of flesh (a seed of David) became a Son but rather you teach that an existing Son became flesh.
Further you dance around the clear biblical truth that it was a Son of Man that ascended to sit at God’s right hand and it is a Son of Man that is returning (in our Father’s glory-God’s Spirit aboding in him) to fulfill God’s purpose for why He had created all things in the first place—Jesus becoming a firstborn (of the Spirit) of many and becoming a king overall the earth.
Let’s now extend further upon what I just said and continue with the clear given truth you sweep under the rug.
Both Romans 8 and 1 John 3, tell us the image of the Son and that we are to be as he is, that image is clearly defined as one who is led by the Spirit, one who has God’s Spirit as a witness to his own spirit that he indeed is a child of God, one who has been born of God and thus is righteous, for the fruit of the Spirit aboding in you causes righteousness.
Now add this to the clear truth presented earlier, it is a Son of Man that had been exalted to God’s right hand upon having received the “PROMISED SPIRIT”/”Today I have begotten you”.
If that wasn’t enough clear proof, even Jesus himself says that we will be baptized with the baptism he received and we will drink of the cup that he drinks of but to sit at his right or left in the kingdom is up to the Father. Jesus also said that a man, which he declared himself to be, must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Jesus is a man, we are directly told had received the Spirit and we are told that he was exalted to God’s right hand. Jesus’s words concerning himself made true.
Now let’s extend this even further, all of this was declared by God before the world existed, a man being made into a Son of God, a man being anointed of the Spirit to fulfill God’s covenant, a man who would die for the sins of the world and bring forth judgment unto the reward of giving the promised Spirit and eternal life. From the beginning God’s word was of the savior Jesus Christ and him becoming a righteous judge (through God’s promised Spirit) and an eternal king. Such is a great glory that was of God for this man before the world was, a truth that Jesus himself of course knew and it was no doubt his faith in this word of God that took him to the cross. By such all things that YHVH our Father created, as He said “by Himself” “alone” He created by reason of and for “JESUS CHRIST” -the ANOINTED MAN, the man that BECAME a SON of GOD and is to be a firstborn of many.
What do you go and do with all this clear given truth, you go and ignore it and go about interpreting scripture without it.
What I see is you deny the Spirit, God’s Spirit in a man is not good enough for you. This truth is apparently just too simple for you, you’ve got to fancy it up with the imaginations of men, making Jesus into the likes of a pagan god.
What I am saying, The WORD is the PROMISE of our Creator’s Spirit dwelling in the man Jesus, which therein is a promise unto us also. YHVH our Father Creating all things by reason of and for this!!!!!!!….His Spirit that can dwell in man and bear the fruit of all goodness, righteousness and truth therein giving eternal life.
What you would say is, oh no, nope, the real truth is that Jesus pre-existed as “the Word” as in, we must believe that it was by his voice heaven and earth were created and that Jesus was creating all things for himself.
Quite the difference that is for sure!
You: You can’t assure anything, you can’t even acknowledge the clear simple truth that God promised that He WAS GOING TO BECOME a Father unto a seed of David.
Me: Where did God say HE was going to become a father unto the seed of David? What verse are you citing?
@ Jodi
Why do you deny the divinity and therefore the pre-existence of Jesus which is clearly shown in the Bible. This is what I can’t understand.
And you say you have the Spirit,…but what spirit?
I pray that someone wiser than me guides you into this truth which I believe escapes you for the moment.
With hope in my heart.Jodi…..You are absolutely right, anyone with the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD DWELLING IN THEM , should clearly see that.
All those who have made Jesus into their GOD, and worship him as their God, are liars, and are committing “IDOLATRY “, and Will parish, unless they repent. They preach Jesus as a “DEVINE PREEXISTING” being as a God and are worshiping a man as their God, exactly as 2Ths 2 says they would. That man of sin, mentioned there is the “FALSE” “IMAGE”, OF JESUS, which they (false teachers) , were predicted to create.
peace and love to you and yours Jodi…….gene
@Gene,
All those who have made Jesus into their GOD, and worship him as their God, are liars – – TRUTH!!
and are committing “IDOLATRY ” – – YES!! BY NOT WORSHIPING GOD ALONE!!
Will parish, unless they repent – – MOST LIKELY NOT WITH THE SAME UNDERSTANDING, BUT THE BASIC PREMISE, YES!!
They preach Jesus as a “DIVINE PREEXISTING” being as a God – – MORE TRUTH!!
worshiping a man as their God – – EVEN TEACHING THE GOD OF THE OT?!?!
Funny Gene how much we actually agree; explain the point/reason for having to “accept” the man Jesus or why one must go through a man to get to God?
DT……Yes , but you disagree with him being the true “Messiah” something I know he was and is. I believe exactly what Paul said,…….> “but unto us, (true believers) , there is but “ONE” God, and one mediator, between God and men, the “MAN” JESUS CHRIST.”
And Jesus himself said , …..>“Father that they might come to know you,” THE ONLY” true GOD, and Jesus “the anointed one”, who you have sent”.
DT, IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE THESE WORDS OF Paul and Jesus, then you are rejecting truth . IMO
Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
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