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First off, he didn’t create anything. God created all things THROUGH him.
Second, if God gives him the power to judge or save then he can do that.I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?
Is it just me, or does anybody else get a notification that “jammin” has responded to you any time either Adam or Carmel post something here?
I think the reason for this is because the topic is quite old. When that topic was created, the forum used a different platform, namely Ikonboard. Then that forum was converted into BBPress, a forum platform designed for WordPress. It could be that older topics are missing some tags that are needed to provide certain functionality. Overall, the older topics work, so I won’t try and find a fix. But I will try cloning the topic and I will test it to see if that fixes the notifications.
Islam isn’t going to save you, so let’s just stick to Christianity. Forget about the billions of people for now. Just answer my last questions about the first one or two people, John and Jesus
Neither Christianity going to save me as I am skeptic on all these religious claims.
It’s good that you dropped the idea of ‘billions becoming Christians’.
The questions on the historicity of Jesus were already replied in my previous post.
John as the writer of the Gospel no where mentioned in the Fourth Gospel. We are only debating on the super claims of this Gospel.
Proclaimer
If Jesus is not God from God, he cannot create anything, save anything, judge anything, ….
This statement is pure human reasoning.First off, he didn’t create anything. God created all things THROUGH him.
Second, if God gives him the power to judge or save then he can do that.Joseph was given all power by the pharaoh, but that did not include power over the pharaoh.
God delegates. Behind it all, it is still God.
Jesus is not God. He doesn’t have the final word on everything.
In the state of your understanding of the Word of God, it seems to you to be human reasoning, but the time will come when you will realize that JESUS IS OTHER THAN YOU THINK
TRY TO TELL HIM IN FACE: JESUS YOU DID NOTHING CREATED, ….Who? how about “what is the word”?
The word, or logos is defined by a message not emphasizing the actual words or means used to communicate the message but the intent of the message sender. Another Greek word, rhema, emphasizes the actual words used to communicate the message. Both are important.
Logos is the message, the intended idea or concept that is being communicated
God’s written word is the logos, as well as the author of God’s word, that is God himself as well as the son of God who also communicates the message God intends for us to receive, believe and understand.
Without considering the actual definition of the word logos, we lose the great intent of John 1. that is, God is communicating himself to us via the written word and the word in the flesh, Jesus Christ
When a person personifies an attribute of God, they often are called by that name.
These are the twelve He appointed: Simon (whom He named Peter), James son of Zebedee and his brother John (whom He named Boanerges, meaning “Sons of Thunder”).
So while thunder is a thing, so a person can take the name of that.
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
And we know that the Word of God was WITH God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…
Even those who are saved receive a special name.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
So let’s apply some common sense to this. If the Son of God is called Jesus, then he is Jesus and is the Son of God. If he is called ‘The Word of God’, then he is the Word of God.
Hi Mike,
ME: BUT JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES THE UNIQUE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH!
SATAN’S DREAM!YOU: In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?
1 Corinthians 15: 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit….. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.
John6:61But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this
scandalize you?
62 If then you shall see THE SON OF MAN
(IN THE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH)
ascend up where he was before?
JESUS CHRIST IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER, THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS John17:5
63It is the spirit that quickeneth:
the FLESH PROFITHET NOTHING.
The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
As clear as crystal Mr. Mike: DESPITE THE FACT THAT JESUS ASCENDED BACK TO HEAVEN IN FLESH, WHERE HE IS NOW MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN FLESH,
THAT KIND OF FLESH IS SPIRITUAL AS WELL, 1Corinthians 15 above, NOT
FLESH AND BLOOD EARTHLY BUT HEAVENLY ALL SPIRITUAL.
1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,
being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,
19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:
Now is the Son of man ( “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE) glorified,
and God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE) is glorified in him.( IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)
32If God (IN THE HOLY GHOST) be glorified in him, (IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)
God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST) also will glorify him (THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH) in himself; (BECOMES GOD IN SPIRITUAL FLESH,)
THUS, THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE and “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, ARE NOT TWO ANY MORE, BUT
TWO IN ONE FLESH,
SPIRITUAL FLESH
and immediately will he glorify him.(ON HIS DEATH)
John 5:Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice
of the SON OF GOD (OF THE HOLY GHOST) and they that hear shall live. 27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the SON OF MAN (“THE WORD” made flesh OF THE FATHER)
Now let’s read
Acts 20:28 ake heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein THE HOLY GHOST hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God,
which he hath purchased with his own blood.
HOW COME THE HOLY GHOST HAS BLOOD???
OBVIOUS, AS THE HOLY GHOST ACQUIRED JESUS’ SPIRITUALIZED FLESH AS SOON AS JESUS DIED, AND JESUS UNIFIED BOTH
THE SON OF GOD, OF THE HOLY GHOST, and THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” OF THE FATHER, INTO ONE
GLORIFIED SUBSTANCE IN
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN!
PRECISELY IN HELL AND PREACHED HIS GOSPEL 1 Peter 3:18 above, BY WHICH HE GAVE FREEDOM AND ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE SPIRITUALLY DEAD WHO ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL SINCE ADAM’S SIN.
You: To me this idea certainly does sound like a dream concocted by Satan. Are you absolutely sure that it’s Jesus filling your head with these things, and not Satan?
POOR Mike, I’m AFRAID, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU, and also YOU Mr. Gene, since you WERE SO EAGER TO SUPPORT Mike,
BOTH OF YOU ARE STILL LIVING
ON MILK!
Nevertheless, YOU ARE ALWAYS IN MY PRAYERS!
JESUS MISSION ON EARTH WAS TO SPIRITUALIZE HIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY
BY THE SAME CORRUPTED SATANIC PROCESS OF THE WORLD, FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER, SPIRIT, AND THE HUMAN RACE FLESH EX SATANIC, AND UNIFIED THEM
AS ONE IN HIM
BY WHICH TASK THE WORLD BECAME FUTILE, HENCE JESUS WON THE WORLD.
John 17:20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21That they all may be one,
as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;
that they also may be one in us;
that the world may believe that THOU (SPIRIT) HAST SENT ME.
JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS BODY BEFORE HIS PASSION! Read and discern the truth.
Matthew 17:1 AND after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
Luke: 13:32 And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow,
and the third day I am consummated.
Jesus’flesh achieved a spiritual state one with the Holy Ghost, in His soul, and was ready to be sacrificed perfect, IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE! 1Peter 1:3.
33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,
because it cannot be that a prophet perish,
out of Jerusalem.
Reflect: Jesus died OUTSIDE Jerusalem!!!
The above is a reference to His body, THE NEW JERUSALEM, THE BRIDE, John3:29, and FOR HIS BODY to become SPIRIT,
HE AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” MUST REMAIN IN HIS BODY AND DIE, NOT OUTSIDE HIS BODY, IN ORDER TO DESTROY DEATH! SATANIC! GLORIFIED BY DEATH ITSELF!
JESUS’ THIRST!
THUS IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD, THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT, THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, ALL BY HIMSELF, TO ACHIEVE THIS, AND TO DO WHAT JESUS DID FOR GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH! John17:4
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.
UNLESS UNITED AS ONE WITH
“THE WORD” MADE FLESH, OF THE HOLY GHOST,
EQUALLY GOD IN EVERY SENSE!
GOD IS TOO POWERFUL TO DWELL IN SOMETHING NOT OF HIMSELF!
GOD HAS THE POWER TO MULTIPLY AND BILOCATE HIMSELF AS HE FEELS FIT!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
A ONLY HUMAN mediator who does not hear prayers cannot BE A TRUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN …
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
It seems the saviour that God sent into the world was a man. The final Adam.
So all in the first adam will die.
All in the final Adam shall live.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I’ve rebuilt this topic and merged some smaller old topics that were on the same subject. Not sure if this will resolve the “from jammin” problem.
Proclaimer……..An attribute does not mean the person or thing is actually that, We call a airplane a bird right , is an airplane a real bird? No , it is not, it fly’s “like” a bird does. Jesus “himself” is not the actual word of God, he tells us what God tells him to tell us , just like all the prophets did.. Are the sons of Zebedee , James and John , really thunder?, no of course not. They simply had an attribute of that related to thunder. So it is with Jesus, He spoke the words of God to us over and over, so he was called the word of God, but the false teaching that he “IS” “himself” God’s actual word himself, is a false teaching, because a person tells us what God the Father says does not actually make him or she the word of God themselves. Jesus never said he himself was the word of God, in fact he clearly said this, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY” words , but the words of “Him” That sent me.
So there it is, right out of Jesus’ own mouth. Question is do you really , believe what Jesus himself said. That the words he was telling us were “NOT” “HIS” WORDS.
NOW if we truly believe Jesus, as we say we do, then how could Jesus “actually “BE” God’s “WORD” “HIMSELF”.
AS I said you can be given a name based on an attribute you poses, but not “actually” be that attribute, believe it or not, Peter was not an actual “Rock”, the Sons of Zebedee James and John were not, thunder. Jesus is not the actual word of God, who he was quoting to us, either. GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING, Just like you and your words are one and the same also. There exist no such thing a ” FLESH” WORD, because words are “SPIRIT”, and Spirit is “not” flesh.
Jesus is the “prophesied” “word of God”, that finely came into existence , and it was the “Flesh”, man Jesus.Peace and love to you and yours………gene
Proclaimer……..An attribute does not mean the person or thing is actually that, We call a airplane a bird right , is an airplane a real bird? No , it is not, it fly’s “like” a bird does. Jesus “himself” is not the actual word of God, he tells us what God tells him to tell us , just like all the prophets did.. Are the sons of Zebedee , James and John , really thunder?, no of course not. They simply had an attribute of that related to thunder. So it is with Jesus, He spoke the words of God to us over and over, so he was called the word of God, but the false teaching that he “IS” “himself” God’s actual word himself, is a false teaching, because a person tells us what God the Father says does not actually make him or she the word of God themselves. Jesus never said he himself was the word of God, in fact he clearly said this, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY” words , but the words of “Him” That sent me.
Hi brother Gene, very good post it is. Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us. This is because of the very writers of the NT which you are not able to recognise because you respect those writers. After all they were all human beings like you and me.
Hi Mike,
You asked:
Danny, are those who believe Jesus is the Christ literal sons of God because they are begotten of God?
Are those who are begotten of God not creations of God because they are begotten of God?Jesus Christ was no created, but begotten.
He is in fact, the only begotten Son of God. (John 1:14, John 1:18; John 3:16, John 3:18; 1 John 4:9)
To be begotten means that one has the exact nature as the one who begot him.
This is evident in Adam begetting Cain and Abel, two sons of Adam
who had the exact same human nature as Adam.
In that sense is Jesus Christ the only literal Son of God!If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then we cannot be begotten of the Father in a literal sense.
It can only be in a secondary sense of the word.
We will never be of the same essence or substance as Almighty God Himself!You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God–we are said to be begotten of God.
But we are not “monogenes/only-begotten.” That refers to Jesus’ deity.
Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on 1 John 5:1
“Begotten.—Of those who have the new birth, in a general sense: quite distinct from “only-begotten.””If you leave out Jesus is the only begotten Son, you are leaving out the real Jesus and substituting a false one.
This is evident in Adam begetting Cain and Abel, two sons of Adam
who had the exact same human nature as Adam.
In that sense is Jesus Christ the only literal Son of God!True. And Cain and Abel are adam / man, but not Adam / the man.
The same rule and structure is in John 1:1c with the last mention of theos.
It’s a myth to you Adam. But that doesn’t make it a myth. Rather it is a plan. A plan usually involves steps. But for some reason, you have set a rule that the plan should have been fully spelled out at stage one. Despite the fact that divulging a plan upfront exposes it to the enemy.
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
It’s a myth to you Adam. But that doesn’t make it a myth. Rather it is a plan. A plan usually involves steps. But for some reason, you have set a rule that the plan should have been fully spelled out at stage one. Despite the fact that divulging a plan upfront exposes it to the enemy.
Hi Proclaimer, what was the plan? To bring preexisting alien from another world into our world as human through Virgin Birth, another myth? What type of human he was, a god in disguise of human or a godman as often quoted by Carmel here?
Is it not mythology? We find so many such myths in India in Hinduism and Buddhism. At least Hebrew Bible does not talk about such myths on Messiah.
The Plan
The plan was there before the cosmos came into being. God who is the creator of life and worlds, gave certain living creatures free will in order to allow them to love him in return. But free will comes with risk. Creatures now have the ability to reject God and go their own way instead. It would be logical even for a non-thinking person to assume that within eternity, there would at least be one world that would fall. So God allowed it to happen when it did, but he let it be a witness to angels and the great cloud of witnesses to see the wisdom of such a thing. Of course, it not only led to evil, sin, misery and an increasing lack of love, but it ultimately leads to death. Now that this has happen, God who is love offered a way to be redeemed to those who were born into this sin. He gave them the right to become sons of God despite our sin. Here is what we know:
The Lamb of God died for our sins.
There is a Book of Life.
It is the Lamb’s Book of Life.
It has names written in it.
They were written in it before the foundation of the world.
Christ was foreordained to be a sacrifice before the foundation of the world.
This sinful world however has a silver lining.
It offers opportunities through suffering to attain certain wisdom that you would not get in a perfect world. And even the son of God learned obedience by suffering in this world.
Further, concerning the mystery of Christ, even angels long to look into these things.When I have checked out of this world, I hope that the wisdom I have learned through suffering this sinful world will make me a better soul and to be a wiser person.
If you never saw a world fall, then with vain imaginations, you could think about the freedom to do whatever you want when you are your own God. The reality is quite horrific though, because all good things come from God and when you reject God you reject goodness, love, life, and wisdom. What you get in return is the opposite or lack of these things. Death, hate, evil, foolishness, etc. And the argument about enjoying sin in hell is wrong too. You cannot enjoy anything without God as joy comes from God.
In the end, there will be those who are taken out of this world to become sons of God. And there will be those who will fall with this world and will eventually become like chaff and be blown away in the wind. Surely witnessing this will put to bed any vain idea that rejecting God and going your own way could be amazing.
To all,
In your opinion, what would be the difference between a created son of God and an uncreated son of God?
This should be interesting. LU
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Word of God
One of the most consistent ways that scripture identifies Jesus Christ as the Word of God is the recognition that God created all things through him, that he is before all things, and that nothing was made without him.
THE WORD
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
THE SON
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…
JESUS CHRIST
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge.
Notice the last sentence above. Not all have this knowledge.
Clearly we can see that scripture identifies all three persons above as the same person. First off, there is very little argument against the idea that Jesus Christ is the Son of God according to scripture at least. What is more controversial though is that Jesus Christ is Word of God. But as we can see, scripture clearly identifies the fact that all things were made through the Word, The Son, and Jesus Christ. Further proof to tie Jesus Christ as the Word of God is found in the Book of Revelation. It states that when Jesus Christ returns, he comes with HIS name, “The Word of God”.
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
If the Son of God’s name is Jesus, then the Son of God is Jesus. Likewise, if the Son of God’s name is The Word of God, then he is the Word of God.
Finally, we read in the opening verses in the Book of John that the Word was WITH God. This dispels the teaching that the Word was simply an attribute of God. Yes, the logos in still an attribute of God. But there is also a person with that name who was with God. Names often reflect one’s characters and attributes. We even see that Jesus gave a new name to some of his disciples to reflect their character. And from the verses above, we can see clearly that Jesus Christ is the ‘The Word of God’.
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