Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,675 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #834172
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

     

    You: Receiving the Holy Spirit when you are alive we are specifically told what that means, you are given gifts of the Spirit, some to speak in tongues, some to prophecy, some to heal, etc..

    When they received this Spirit it didn’t make them immortal, it made them messengers of God with the purpose to bring people into faith, so that they could be counted worthy of the resurrection at Christ’s coming.

    Me:

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    Me: Again, you misrepresent what I said. I said saints become immortal when they die in good stead. They have passed on from death to the path of life. They have received but the earnest of the spirit. It is a down payment. Angels are ministering spirits, not the church.

    Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

    Me: Angels are sprits. But they can reveal themselves with bodies.

    Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    Me: If we are like angels, we are spirits when we die. There is one spirit, the holy spirit, and we are sprit beings of that one invisible spirit.  We can live without a body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have…42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

    Me: Christ did not say “flesh and blood” because he wasn’t going to cut himself to show them he was still of the flesh. “flesh and bone” you can touch and feel.

    New American Standard Bible
    1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    Me: God is spirit. Christ is the image of God. Christ became a life giving spirit—he will receive a body at his second coming as I will show you below. We are of the image of Christ who is the image of God. Therefore we are spirit primarily. As angels can express themselves with a body, we will be able to express ourselves with our bodies of the spirit—later.

    Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    You: There is note on verse in the bible that says that Christ has a glorious body now.

    Me: There is no indication here that Christ’s body had converted to a body of the spirit. Instead his whole self converted into a spirit. We like Christ are spirit when we die. There is not one verse that shows that Christ has a body now. He is a life giving spirit now.

    #834173
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

    1 Cor 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Me: A theophany the appearance of God in a burning bush, angelic form, etc. God was always worshiped when he presented himself as so. The physical body of Christ is no more. Christ is presently a life giving spirit—period.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html

     

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

    1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

    Me: We are one body with Christ all at the same time—at Christ’s return. We receive our new bodies, so does Christ receive his new body at his second coming. We are one spirit with God (and Christ) when we die.

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Me: The crown of life is the body of life. Crown represents glory expressed. It also represents ruler ship. It is our bodies gloried as kings. Notice in Daniel 7 above that “one like” the son of God. This corresponds to the visions in Revelation of a visible God.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amien. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amien.

    New American Standard Bible
    1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

    Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 4735 above “crown.”

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/5-4.htm
    Definition: a crown, garland, honor, glory.

    New American Standard Bible
    Phil 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

    Me: I believe “crown of glory” and “body of glory” are one and the same.

    The Messiah receives his body of glory when he is crowned or given rulership over the entire cosmos. We also, receive our glorious bodies and rule under him as kings.

    .
    1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Me: Corruption refers to the body. It is the body of Christ together with his church or the firstfruits that obtain their bodies of everlasting life at the same time as Christ when Christ returns. Prior to that, Christ was made a life given spirit after his ascension into heaven. We become spirits of life through him when we die.

    Zech 9:16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

    Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

    2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

    #834174
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

     

    Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Rev 14:4… These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    Me: The church is the firstfruits with the lamb of God

    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;

    #834175
     Jodi 
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    Oh boy I have some catching up to do!

    Nick you said,

    “You would try to divide the gifts of the Holy Spirit from the lifegiving nature of the eternal Spirit?”

    Me:  NO I HAVE NOT, in anyway.

    #834178
     Anthony 
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    Hi Gene

    Ya your right Gene God bless you my brother  Gene  at time I feel that there’s a whole lot of half brothers and sisters I think it’s because they haven’t given there whole self to God, that’s a very hard thing to do brother, we get caught up in the cares of this world. We’re in a spiritual warfare  and it seems that the more we study and read His word, and try to do the right thing, that the warfare begins to get more intense at time’s. But I have chosen the path of life, not the path of death. I must decrease so He can increase, it’s All or nothing. Yes Gene His WORD will prevail. We are in a real family, we have a elder brother and a true Father, brother. That help us in times of need. God bless you .may God be with you.

    #834179
     Anthony 
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    Hi A

    There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you.  God bless

    #834181
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony. …AMEN BROTHER.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene

    #834182
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

     

    2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord…9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

    Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

     

    Me: Consider the scripture above. If we are absent from the body,  we are home with the Lord. This has to mean the present body. It cannot mean the future body at Christ’s return,  because we are with Christ at that time. So, absent from the body here has to mean from any body, present or future.

    Thus, when we are absent from the body now, we are present with the Lord in spirit.

    #834183
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi and All,

     

    Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

    Me: Paul was speaking of a spiritual resurrection that was strange to their ears.  Even Martha knew of the bodily resurrection when Christ returns (John 11:24-25).

    New American Standard Bible
    Acts 23:6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” 7 As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

    Me: Click on the below link: Then click on 32a to the right of “an angel”.

    Here aggeloscan mean a messenger.

    https://biblehub.com/lexicon/acts/23-9.htm

    Me: Who was the spirit or messenger that spoke to Christ?

    Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

    Me: The spiritual resurrection is now.  The bodily resurrection comes later as one group, the church with Christ as its head.

    #834184
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    You have summarised the Law.

    But we are not Jews and the law was given to them.

    So you do not realise you need to also need to believe in the Son of God?

    If you do not obey the Father and obey Him and also believe in the Son what hope do you have?

    #834185
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    Here are a couple of clarifications need.

    First, I had written two posts up on September 9, 2018 at 3:22 am.

    2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord…9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

    Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

    Me: Consider the scripture above. If we are absent from the body, we are home with the Lord. This has to mean the present body. It cannot mean the future body at Christ’s return, because we are with Christ in our spirit bodies at that time. So, absent from the body here has to mean from any body, present.  If we are absent in the then future, it is  before the second coming.
    Thus, when we are absent from the body before Christ’s second coming, we are present with the Lord in spirit in heaven.

    #834186
     Anthony 
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    Hi Nick

    We have the law written in our heart Nick  this law isn’t    something   of stone that Moses had, this is one that the only begotten Son has giving us Nick. We do these things by and through Jesus Christ. No Nick, we no longer have to sacrifice a sheep Nict Jesus is the lamb of God) His Father) who takes away the sin of the world He made the sacrifice for us.shoul we continue in sin Nick God forgive.

    God bless

    #834187
     Anthony 
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    Hi TC

    2 Corinthians 5:6-9
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 

    Philippians 1:21-23
    21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 

    In these scriptures, Paul says that when he is absent from the body or when he departs (dies), he will be with the Lord. A dead person who is ‘sleeping’ in his grave is not aware of any time gap between the time when he dies (sleeps) and when he wakens up from his sleep, which is when he is resurrected. So, for Paul his first conscious waking moment, after death, will be with Christ, when he is resurrected together with all of the Saints, the 144,000 Firstfruits, to meet Jesus Christ in the air at Christ’s Second Coming.

    Notice, in the verse given below, Paul understood that all believers will be presented together, as a group, to Christ at His Second Coming, and no believer is ever consciously present with Christ before that time.

    2 Corinthians 4:14 
    knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 

     

    #834188
     Anthony 
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    Hi TC

    It’s seem we don’t have anymore to share on this subject, see to just be going back and forth the same scriptures ect.. ect. I’ll send this once again , praying and hoping you     see something new in it.

     

    II Corinthians 5:6-8
    “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

    For many people what the phrase “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”, means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that “WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD”. The phrase “we are willing” shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish “to be absent from the body and present with Lord”. Though a full and clear picture of what this phrase means will be possible only after the examination of its context, we can from the outset preclude that it could ever mean that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord for in a case like this, there would be a stark contradiction with I Thessalonians 4:15-17 that says:

    I Thessalonians 4:15-17
    “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND THUS [i.e. by this way, the resurrection of the dead Christians and the changing of the body of the alive ones] we SHALL always be with the Lord.

    If in II Corinthians 5:6-8 God said that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord, then how could in I Thessalonians 4:17 the same God say that “AND THUS (i.e. by the resurrection, and the changing of the bodies) we SHALL always be with the Lord?” Obviously either the Word is wrong, which is impossible, or the interpretation that is usually given to II Corinthians 5:6-8 is wrong. As we will see by studying the context the later is the case. Thus starting from II Corinthians 4:13 – about fifteen verses earlier – we read:

    II Corinthians 4:13-14
    “We having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, and therefore I spoke; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he who raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.”

    What Paul knew by revelation was not that after one dies he continues to live together with the other dead. Instead what he knew and taught was that: “he which RAISER up the Lord Jesus shall RAISE up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.” Paul waited and still waits the resurrection, to be presented, to be together, with those Corinthian believers. The last time he saw them was in the last time he visited Corinth, and the next time he will see them will be when both he and they will be RAISED to meet, together with the alive believers, the Lord in the air. Obviously therefore, the context of our passage is not about death but about its exact opposite: the RESURRECTION of the dead. But let’s continue:

    II Corinthians 4:18-5:4
    “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”

    When this passage speaks for a “tabernacle” and for a “house” it obviously does not mean a physical lifeless structure. Really, it is not possible “to be clothed upon” with a physical house, nor is it possible by changing it that “mortality might be swallowed up of life”. When therefore in the above passage the words “house” and “tabernacle” are used, they are used with the meaning of an ALIVE structure, an ALIVE house. In other words they are used with the meaning of a body which as we know is the “house” of our being1. This is also affirmed by the controversial verses 6-8 that follow the above passage and which speak for a BODY. As therefore the above passage (and others as well – see below) tells us, there are two bodies. The one is the earthly body or house which we desire to substitute with the other that is the heavenly body or house. As the passage says when we will be clothed upon with our heavenly body THEN “mortality will be swallowed up of life”. The reader that carefully read the last issue may remember that I Corinthians 15:35-58 says exactly the same. Really there, starting from verse 44 we read:

    I Corinthians 15:44-54
    “There is a natural [soul] body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual [body] is not first, but the natural [body], and afterward the spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such arethey also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy [the earthly, natural, body], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [the heavenly, spiritual body]. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

    When “will death be swallowed up in victory” (I Corinthians 15:54)? When “shall mortality be swallowed up in life” (II Corinthians 5:4)? The answer of the two passages is very clear: this will happen when “this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality”. It will happen when this “earthy” house (II Corinthians 5:1) or soul body (I Corinthians 15:44), will be substituted with the heavenly house (II Corinthians 5:2) or spiritual body (I Corinthians 15:44), which in turn will occur when the Lord will come back (I Thessalonians 4:15-17). As I Corinthians 15:52-54 tells us, “THEN [and only then] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    From all the above it should be clear that the context of the “controversial” passage of II Corinthians 5:6-8 does not speak for death as a hope but for the changing of the bodies, from earthly to heavenly, and from soul to spiritual, which as we saw will happen in the day of the Lord’s coming. With this in mind, let’s now reread verses 6-8:

    II Corinthians 5:6-8
    “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body (the earthly body), we are absent from the Lord (we need the heavenly body to be with him): For we walk by faith, not by sight: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body (the earthly body), and to be present with the Lord.”

    Being in this body we are absent from the Lord. Do we therefore want to be absent from this earthly body? Of course yes, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Does it mean that we want to die? Of course not. Really where does the passage says something like this? In contrast, as II Corinthians 5:4 made clear: “we DON’T want to be unclothed, BUT to be clothed upon”. What therefore we should really desire is not to die (be “unclothed”) for then though we may be absent from the earthly body we will also be absent from the Lord for we will not have the heavenly body either. In contrast, what we should really desire is to be “clothed upon” with our heavenly body, abandoning the present earthly body. Only then, when our earthly body will have been substituted by our heavenly body, we will be present with the Lord (II Thessalonians 4:17). When will this happen? I Corinthians 15 was very clear: “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    God bless TC

     

     

     

    #834189
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony, this subject has been beat to death, those who get it, get it, those who don’t just don’t, you have done a good Job clearly explaining it, as Jodi and others. TO ME IT IS CLEAR THE WHEN Paul said, “it” is sown in weakness “it” is raised in power, “it” is sown a natural body “it” is raised a spritual body. The term “it” never changed meaning a “OUR BODIY”. SO it all has to deal with the adaption of our mortal bodies to a imortal BODY. NOT CHANGING TO A SPIRIT BEING, for spirits have no “bodies”.

    Anthony, please go to “SECOND THESSELOIANS EXPLAINED ” PAGE AND READ THE POSTED PAGES AND GIVE US YOUR IMPUT BROTHER.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #834190
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    The Father of Jesus can do no more.

    He sent His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

    How tragic for those who ignore Him and do not grasp onto this last opportunity to be saved.

    Imagining that it is all already done by magic and that God does not require from each of us a response in faith to this offer.

    God requires all men everywhere to repent. Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

    #834191
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony

    You:

    II Corinthians 5:6-8
    “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
    For many people what the phrase “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”, means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that “WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD”. The phrase “we are willing” shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish “to be absent from the body and present with Lord”.:

     

    Me:
    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    Heb 13:5…I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    We could really solve the whole thing right here. Let the spirit of God help us with a little wisdom. Nobody said that we wish to die. Paul says that he wishes to leave his physical body and be with the Lord, not to die. When our hearts and minds leave our physical body with the spirit of God, we are with God. We shall never die if we are faithful to the end of our physical existence. We then enter a spiritual existence with the human mind of the Messiah in the holy spirit with our heavenly father. Our new bodies, together with Christ’s at the end, are the crown of our everlasting existence.

    ! Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”
    Means exactly every word of that:
    “ WE ARE CONDIDENT, I SAY, AND WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD”.

    Me: What body are we absent from when we leave it? It has to be our present physical bodies. We are present with the Lord before we receive our new bodies. This is quite obvious to me.

    #834192
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 815

    Hi Anthony,

     

    1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which “rest” in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not “precede” them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “appear” first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Me: Alternative definitions in the quotation marks are mine”. Notice in verse 14 above, the messiah is bringing with him those that “rest” in him. Notice also in the same verse, “will God bring with him”.

    2 Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

    Me: When are we raised up with Christ in the spirit that never dies?

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Me: Baptism into Christ’s death and burial and then the resurrection into life occur now. It is the earnest of the spirit. When we grow in it until our deaths, then we are fully resurrected from the dead and are with Christ with God in heaven.

    Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Me: The spirit that dwells in us never leaves us as I have shown above in John 11:25 and Heb 13:5.

    Thus, I believe that I Thes 4:16 should be rendered as so:

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall appear first:

    Me: “Appear first” in verse 17 is consistent with “shall not precede them” in verse 16.

    #834193
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 815

    Hi Anthony,

     

    2 Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

    Me: As I have shown, we are raised up spiritually with Christ now with the earnest of the spirit and completely at our deaths. We are raised up by Christ through the spirit of God that raised him up. We are not raised directly by God. So this means that as we died with him, we are raised by the baptism of the holy spirit with him, not when we receive our new bodies, into life with Christ. We receive our new bodies at the second coming of the Messiah.

    1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Me: What death is swallowed up in victory? Swallow up means complete victory, not just with the spirit of God in our hearts and minds, but with our new bodies also.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    2 Cor 5:4 for we also who are in the tabernacle do groan, being burdened, seeing we wish not to unclothe ourselves, but to clothe ourselves, that the mortal may be swallowed up of the life.

    Me: It is through the life of God in us that will obtain an immortal body, not an immortal body will give us life.

    To say that we only live when Christ returns is both unscriptural and sterile. It does not have the life of the spirit in it. So if you, Gene, and Jodi and a billion like you want to believe that, then so be it.  I certainly do not.

    #834194
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,646

    Hi TC,

    You said,

    Me: It is through the life of God in us that will obtain an immortal body, not an immortal body will give us life.

    To say that we only live when Christ returns is both unscriptural and sterile. It does not have the life of the spirit in it. So if you, Gene, and Jodi and a billion like you want to believe that, then so be it.  I certainly do not.”

    TC, unscriptural???

    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    TC this was written AFTER Pentecost, and it says the resurrection of the DEAD, and it says in Christ SHALL all be made alive, those that are his AT HIS COMING.

    So people are DEAD, they are resurrected, meaning they are brought back to LIFE. We are told specifically WHEN this occurs, at his second coming.

    Below we see those in Christ actually do DIE, and they will be given the crown of LIFE.

    Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    They DIED and when they DIED they did not YET have the crown of LIFE.

    James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Here it is for you again TC in plain scripture! Those ANOINTED with the SPIRIT were taught by the Spirit, and if that abides in them they will receive the promise of eternal life. You say though when you are anointed you receive it then and there, and though you die, you say you are still alive you go to be with Jesus in heaven. NO, that is against this clear passage! This passage tells you that when he appears at his second coming those in him will not be ashamed but confident when they see him.

    I have not read through all of your posts, so maybe I have missed a proper response to my post regarding the meaning behind Paul’s words, to be absent from the body.

    You said, “Me: Consider the scripture above. If we are absent from the body, we are home with the Lord. This has to mean the present body. It cannot mean the future body at Christ’s return, because we are with Christ in our spirit bodies at that time. So, absent from the body here has to mean from any body, present. If we are absent in the then future, it is before the second coming. Thus, when we are absent from the body before Christ’s second coming, we are present with the Lord in spirit in heaven.”

    ME: Paul specifically tells you that his desire was to be clothed, was to receive a BODY that does not fear death. He tells you that we must put to death the body of sin, obey the Spirit and give up the deeds of the flesh.

    He tells you in Romans 7 that he is a wretched man, who wants to be delivered from a BODY of DEATH.

    When Paul speaks of being absent from the body, he is speaking of the BODY of DEATH that he was currently in, the one that tempts him, the one that draws him away from God and obeying His laws.

    Paul was very uncomfortable in his mortal flesh, he was sick and tired of temptation. He longed to have the BODY Jesus was raised in that was raised in glory and power, not one of temptation that could bring shame, not one of weakness that feared death and by such was in bondage. His desire was to have a body that was not weak, but full of power and able to follow God’s laws. 

    “At home” in your body means that you are comfortable in your flesh you are enjoying your sins, you have not the Spirit working in you, and thus you are far from being united with God, He is ABSENT from you. 

    If you are like Paul, who did not feel at home in his body but loathed it and it’s weakness, you are spiritually minded, God’s Spirit is working in you and you are PRESENT with the LORD. 

    Like I said before, your reasoning here is pure vanity, emptiness. Actually what I truly find it to be is destructive to the word of God.

    You want to say that Paul is teaching that we should desire to be absent from our bodies and be a spirit with Jesus in heaven.

    What Paul is actually teaching is a most VALUABLE lesson, which is for those who do not feel at home in their mortal bodies, are those that acknowledge the sins of the body, they are those that are repentant and have faith in God that He will give them a body like that of Jesus. Having this mind makes you worthy to obtain the reward.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    What DOES PAUL SAY in 2 Corinthians 5, after speaking about not being at home in his body? He says, 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 

    Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    More word of God TC, that proves you are greatly mistaken! There is nothing about hope for being without a body and becoming a spirit in heaven. Christ APPEARS, he becomes seen, he is revealed, at his second coming and that is WHEN the reward is given. This reward is reserved in heaven and is revealed in the last times. 

    The trial of  a person’s faith is found unto praise, honor, and glory at the APPEARING of Jesus. 

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    LET’S COMPARE TC,

    I SAY, that it is appointed for man to die once, and then comes the judgment, those that look for him will receive salvation when he appears a second time.

    You say, upon Christ’s resurrection when people were anointed with the Holy Spirit they became eternal spirits, where their bodies still die, but their spirit goes to heaven to be with Jesus, then when Jesus returns with them they are given their immortal bodies.

    How is it that he appears unto them upon his second coming, if they are coming down from heaven with him???

    How is it that it is said that men die and after that is the judgment? But you say that men die and their spirit goes to be present with the Lord.

     

     

     

     

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