Firstborn of/over all creation

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  • #834195
     Jodi 
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    Hi Nick,

    You said, ”

    Hi Anthony,

    The Father of Jesus can do no more.

    He sent His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

    How tragic for those who ignore Him and do not grasp onto this last opportunity to be saved.

    Imagining that it is all already done by magic and that God does not require from each of us a response in faith to this offer.

    God requires all men everywhere to repent. Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

    Nick, really, the Father can do know more??

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    So we are told that it is impossible for us on our OWN to be able to follow God’s law, but you think that God expects us to on our own be able to believe in Him and His Son???

    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where*it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    For if I am saved it is only by God’s mercy, by the work of His Spirit in me as I have been chosen by Him. He knew me before I was born.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    #834196
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

     

    You wrote: 

     

    2 Corinthians 5:6-9
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
    Philippians 1:21-23
    21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

    You: In these scriptures, Paul says that when he is absent from the body or when he departs (dies), he will be with the Lord.

    Me: True

    You: A dead person who is ‘sleeping’ in his grave is not aware of any time gap between the time when he dies (sleeps) and when he wakens up from his sleep, which is when he is resurrected.

    Me: True for nonbelievers, false for saints.

    You: So, for Paul his first conscious waking moment, after death, will be with Christ, when he is resurrected together with all of the Saints, the 144,000 Firstfruits, to meet Jesus Christ in the air at Christ’s Second Coming.

    Me: Very false. Saints are resurrected from the dead at baptism with an earnest of the spirit. When Adam had disobeyed God, he died that very day. We come to life spiritually when we are baptized, otherwise we are dead in our spirit minds like the rest of mankind (Luke 9:60 Rom 4:16).

    Romans 6:8 (NIV) Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    Me: Christ does not die anymore. Christ in us does not die anymore. “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”. If we backslide permanently and lose the spirit of God (spirit in Christ) in us, we crucify him afresh (Heb 6:6-8). He does not live in us anymore. But if we endure to the end of our lives, he will never leave us. We can leave him, he will never leave us. The onus is on us.

    You: Notice, in the verse given below, Paul understood that all believers will be presented together, as a group, to Christ at His Second Coming, and no believer is ever consciously present with Christ before that time.

    2 Corinthians 4:14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.

    Me: This is addressing the Corinthians with the ministry (vs 1). All true Christians grow in the spirit, they do not die. We are presented to God when we die as the apostles and teachers are presented to God when they die. 2 Cor 4:14 does not say all the saints are presented to God at once at the second coming.  These are your words.

    2 Cor 4: 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

    Me: Our inward man does not perish. Our inward man is Christ in us. He does not perish, so our inward man does not perish. When we die in good stead, our body perishes, but we do not spiritually.

    We have to look at scripture with spiritual eyes, not with our human understanding.

    #834197
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Anthony,

    IF?

    If all are saved then relax and put your feet up.

    #834198
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Me: We went all over the first part tooth and nail already.

    You:

    1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Here it is for you again TC in plain scripture! Those ANOINTED with the SPIRIT were taught by the Spirit, and if that abides in them they will receive the promise of eternal life. You say though when you are anointed you receive it then and there, and though you die, you say you are still alive you go to be with Jesus in heaven. NO, that is against this clear passage! This passage tells you that when he appears at his second coming those in him will not be ashamed but confident when they see him.

    Me:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at the gospel of God?

    1 Thes 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    Me: Judgment begins at the house of the God now. If we endure to the end, we shall be saved now and receive our crown when Christ returns to the earth.. If not, those await future judgment. What does “abide in him” mean?
    Click on the link below: Then click on 3306 above “you shall abide” This means to stay in Christ and is supported by 1 Thes 5:10 above.
    https://biblehub.com/greek/3306.htm

    You:. I have not read through all of your posts, so maybe I have missed a proper response to my post regarding the meaning behind Paul’s words, to be absent from the body.

    Me: Please read my recent posts to Anthony.

    You:

    You Quoted me:  “Consider the scripture above. If we are absent from the body, we are home with the Lord. This has to mean the present body. It cannot mean the future body at Christ’s return, because we are with Christ in our spirit bodies at that time. So, absent from the body here has to mean from any body, present. If we are absent in the then future, it is before the second coming. Thus, when we are absent from the body before Christ’s second coming, we are present with the Lord in spirit in heaven.”

    You:  Paul specifically tells you that his desire was to be clothed, was to receive a BODY that does not fear death. He tells you that we must put to death the body of sin, obey the Spirit and give up the deeds of the flesh.
    He tells you in Romans 7 that he is a wretched man, who wants to be delivered from a BODY of DEATH.
    When Paul speaks of being absent from the body, he is speaking of the BODY of DEATH that he was currently in, the one that tempts him, the one that draws him away from God and obeying His laws.
    Paul was very uncomfortable in his mortal flesh, he was sick and tired of temptation. He longed to have the BODY Jesus was raised in that was raised in glory and power, not one of temptation that could bring shame, not one of weakness that feared death and by such was in bondage. His desire was to have a body that was not weak, but full of power and able to follow God’s laws.

    Me: Our fleshly body inherits death through Adam. It causes us to sin.
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (by which) all have sinned:
    Me: Look up the Hebrew word for “all have sinned” It should be “which” all have sinned. It is death, the opposite of life that causes us to sin. So sin implies death and death implies sin.

    You: “At home” in your body means that you are comfortable in your flesh you are enjoying your sins, you have not the Spirit working in you, and thus you are far from being united with God, He is ABSENT from you.
    If you are like Paul, who did not feel at home in his body but loathed it and it’s weakness, you are spiritually minded, God’s Spirit is working in you and you are PRESENT with the LORD.

    Me: Talking about bending and twisting scripture. And you contradict yourself.  Just in the paragraph above, you talked about the flesh as the physical body. “At home in the flesh” means at home in the mind and spirit of this fleshly body.  I have mentioned before of a spirit mind and a fleshly mind.  When Adam disobeyed God, he died of his spirit mind, not his fleshly mind.  We are reborn of our spirit minds when we receive the holy spirit.  We inherit life in our spirit minds.  After Christ payed the penalty of sin for us, we never die in our spirit mind if we finish the race.

    You: Like I said before, your reasoning here is pure vanity, emptiness. Actually what I truly find it to be is destructive to the word of God.

    Me: You judge yourself, not me.

    You: You want to say that Paul is teaching that we should desire to be absent from our bodies and be a spirit with Jesus in heaven.
    What Paul is actually teaching is a most VALUABLE lesson, which is for those who do not feel at home in their mortal bodies, are those that acknowledge the sins of the body, they are those that are repentant and have faith in God that He will give them a body like that of Jesus. Having this mind makes you worthy to obtain the reward.

    Me: Total hogwash. Absence from the body means absence from the fleshly mind and body, both that would decease at our spiritual resurrection.

    You: Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    What DOES PAUL SAY in 2 Corinthians 5, after speaking about not being at home in his body? He says, 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Me: Again, you misunderstand what you are reading.

    1 Cor 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Me: We are present with the Lord when we are absent from mind and spirit of the body together with the body. This is addressing now, not at his coming. Present means now. Look it up in the dictionary if you are not convinced.

    #834199
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

    You:

    Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:…13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    More word of God TC, that proves you are greatly mistaken! There is nothing about hope for being without a body and becoming a spirit in heaven. Christ APPEARS, he becomes seen, he is revealed, at his second coming and that is WHEN the reward is given. This reward is reserved in heaven and is revealed in the last times.
    The trial of a person’s faith is found unto praise, honor, and glory at the APPEARING of Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Me: We receive our crown (our glorified bodies) altogether when Christ returns. Our bodies are one with Christ. This is when salvation is complete. In the meantime, we are with him spiritually in heaven.  Christ is a life giving spirit now.  He does not have a glorified body now.  Those that finish the race are spirits in heaven with God and Christ now.  They are of the same spirit that never dies.  They are of the same human heart (figuratively) of Christ that never dies.  So they never die.  Christ had paid the penalty for our sins.

    You: LET’S COMPARE TC,

    I SAY, that it is appointed for man to die once, and then comes the judgment, those that look for him will receive salvation when he appears a second time.

    Me: Judgment is now on the household of God. This is an intervening of God’s part to punish us when need be and to put us through the fire (Heb 12:4-11). The judgment when Christ returns is a judgment of reward or of punishment. If we finish the race, we receive a reward. If we don’t, we are saved by fire or fiery trail at the end of the millennium. If we are spirits in heaven with God and Christ, we have finished the journey.  The judgment we receive when Christ comes back is then reward.  If we are not resurrected into heaven as spirits before Christ returns, the judgment we receive is punishment at the end of the millennium.  It is also a lost of being a king and priest with the Lord.

    1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    You:
    You say, upon Christ’s resurrection when people were anointed with the Holy Spirit they became eternal spirits, where their bodies still die, but their spirit goes to heaven to be with Jesus, then when Jesus returns with them they are given their immortal bodies.

    Me: Their spirits go to heaven if they finish the race. What I mean by spirits here is their minds of the spirit. There is only one spirit in the end, the holy spirit. Saints have the holy spirit of God and the heart of the man Christ when they die in good stead. God does not die. Christ died once and no more. We do not die when we finish the race because God and Christ does not die. If anyone fails, he has crucified Christ, and Christ and God are no longer with him.

    You: How is it that he appears unto them upon his second coming, if they are coming down from heaven with him???

    Me: I had explained that in one of my recent posts. See my post # 834173 , #834174 on page 234 to Anthony.  Christ is presently a life giving spirit. We as spirits are one with him when we die in the good. Christ receives his glorious body at the same time saints do. That is when both Christ and saints rein as kings and Lords, Christ being over all.

    You: How is it that it is said that men die and after that is the judgment? But you say that men die and their spirit goes to be present with the Lord.

    Me: I answered that already two posts up.

    #834203
     GeneBalthrop 
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    TC….spirits have no body. Tell us what your spirit “BODY” looks like if you can.

    Jodi is right and has proved it and so did Anthony, you seem to be caught up in a form of “mystery religion” like the platoian Greeks who also taught of a person still living after death without a resurection of a actual body.

    Jesus plainly to us his resurected body was not a spirit but flesh and bone. But you would have us believe that is not true, Jesus certainly did not agree with you it seems, he had the spirit of the living God in him which dwelt in his physical flesh and bone body.

    Perhaps you never read where Paul said “know you not t h at your ‘Body’ IS THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD, and again God the father speaking first person through Jesus’ mouth said, “destory this TEMPLE and in three days I ‘GOD’ shall raise it up.

    TC you are greately mistaking in what you are saying, forcing the text to meet your ideas is bad form TC. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene

    #834204
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene,

    I have proven my case to myself.  That is what counts at this moment.  I have shown you the scriptures. You have shown me scriptures which I believe are false interpretations with no cohesiveness. If I do not believe your “so called truth”, you call me a false mystery religion propagator.  I rest my case.  I have provided an exhaustive amount of evidence.  So, what you, Anthony, and Jodi believe to the contrary  are your problem.  At this point,  I really couldn’t care less.  I wash my hands.

    #834205
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    Hi Nick

    You say just kick your feet up and relax.  apparently you know nothing about The Father’s WILL and man’s will. Nick to me your the one relaxing, you just make your beleif by how you feel no kind of respect for what scriptures says , your twisting scriptures.how your feel really no thought for what the Father says, you make a game out of His word Nick, of some kind. Let’s talk about The will and how ,  people believe in it.k

    Do you profess to be a Bible believing Christian? All Bible believing Christians fall into one of three categories of Christian beliefs, known as Calvinism, Arminianism and Universalism. These are the three distinct and separate schools of Christian theology. With regard to salvation, every professing Christian inevitably falls into one of them, whether he understands or is aware of these terms or not. So, if you claim to be a Bible believing Christian, after you remove all of your denominational clothing, you are a Calvinist Christian, or an Arminian Christian or a Universalist Christian.

    Each belief claims to be biblically based, and theologians have argued and debated the issues relating to them for centuries. However, the core differences between these three beliefs are irreconcilable. It is not our intention to go into a detailed complicated theological analysis of each belief system, but only to highlight and summarise the core differences between them.

    What is Calvinism?

    Calvinism is a system of theological belief promoted by the French man, John Calvin (1509-1564), and expressed in the document ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion’. It laid the foundation for the Reformed Theology of the Reformation period, and Calvinism is the basis for the doctrine of many Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican and Reformed churches.

    According to Calvin: Before the beginning of the world, God predestined to save a certain group of people called God’s Elect. God’s sovereign will for the salvation of these Elect cannot be resisted or thwarted, as his irresistible grace ensures that all of them will willingly accept Jesus Christ at some point in their lives before they die. The non-Elect cannot come to Christ because natural fallen man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the Elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the non-Elect, the vast majority of humanity) will be judged by God and cast into hell where they will be tortured forever.

    What is Arminianism?

    Arminianism is a system of theological belief promoted by the Dutch man, Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). Arminius started out as a strict Calvinist, but later changed his views as stated in the document ‘The Remonstrance’. Arminianism is the theological basis for Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Free Will Baptists, Holiness churches and many charismatic churches. Roman Catholicism is also basically Arminian in its belief.

    According to Arminius: Jesus Christ died for all people and God wills all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. However, God’s will can be frustrated and thwarted by man and God’s grace can be resisted by mans free will. This is because it is left up to each person to ultimately decide whether he wishes to be saved or not. Therefore, in order to go to heaven each person must choose to accept Jesus Christ before he dies. All those who die without choosing Christ (the vast majority of humanity) will be judged by God and cast into hell, where they will be tortured forever.

    What is Biblical Universalism?

    Biblical Universalism is the belief that ultimately everyone will be saved through the shed blood of God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. Origen of Alexandria (185-254 AD) is the earliest known Christian theologian to have written about Universalism. However, Origen did not have the revelation of true Biblical Universalism believed by Apostle Paul and the very early Christians.

    According to the Bible: God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross to forgive the sins of the whole world, and He is indeed the Saviour of the whole world.

    The powerful truth of the Bible is that God has solved the problem of sin once and for all through the sacrifice made on the cross by His only begotten Son for the sins of the whole world (Romans 6:10, 1 John 2:2). The Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6), and when sin abounds, grace abounds much more (Romans 5:20). Yes, everybody is born a sinner because of one man’s sin, Adam’s sin (Romans 5:12), but everybody is destined to become righteous because of one Man’s righteousness, Jesus Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:18-19).

    God is not desperately trying to save the whole world during this life, and Satan is not winning hands down by taking all unbelievers, who are the overwhelming majority of humanity, to hell when they die. These multitudes, billions upon billions of unsaved people, are not lost forever because God will save all of them after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    God’s Plan is to first call and save a few in this life before they die. They are His Elect Saints, who are a set number of Jewish Elect together with a set number of Gentile Elect, referred to as the Firstfruits. They will rise in the First Resurrection in their glorified immortal spirit bodies as the Bride of Christ, at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, to rule and reign with Christ forever. However, all those who die as unbelievers, both from the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations, will rise in the Second Resurrection and they will first need to undergo God’s refining Lake of Fire judgement during the Great White Throne Judgement Day, before they are saved and hence all of them will enter the Kingdom of God.

    Which God are you serving?

    The god of Calvinism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for his elect few only, and he predestined only his elect to be saved. This must also mean that he predestined, knowingly and willingly, to cast the vast majority of humanity no (the non-elect) into hell to be tortured forever. This makes the god of Calvinism an evil god, infinitely and unimaginably more evil than Hitler could ever be.

    The god of Arminianism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all people, and he wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, but he has made himself weak and helpless to save all people by allowing man’s fallen free will to override his will in salvation. Against his will, the god of Arminianism is force itd to throw the vast majority of humanity into hell to be tortured , because for one reason or another, they failed to accept Jesus Christ in this life before they died. Even worse than that, the god of Arminianism knowingly and willingly created human beings with the full foreknowledge that the vast majority of them would reject salvation and end up being tortured in hell forever. This makes the god of Arminianism both an evil god, as evil as the god of Calvinism, and a weak god who allows the free will of sinful fallen man to override his will in salvation.

    The God of the Bible, the one true Father God Yahweh , so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ Yeshua , to sacrificially die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Jesus Christ died for all people; past, present and future, and God wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. He has unlimited love and power to save all people in His time and in His order, extending beyond this age. This makes the one true God of the Bible the all-powerful, all-loving, wise, just, merciful, forgiving and gracious Father God.

    Conclusion

    Make no mistake about it. You are profoundly affected by how you understand these three beliefs: Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism. Your understanding of God’s sovereignty, His love, His justice, His righteousness, His forgiveness and His grace are all fundamentally governed by your belief system.

    People who believe that God will punish unbelievers in hell forever or annihilate them limit God’s sovereignty, power, love, justice, forgiveness, grace and the very Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. They deny that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is indeed the Saviour of the world.

    Calvinism and Arminianism are both man-invented theologies that deny the true Christ of the Bible and His finished work on the cross for the universal salvation of the whole world. God bless Nick

     

    #834206
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    • Total replies 845

    Hi Nick

    Has God created man with free will? The debate about whether man has free will or not has been going on for centuries, dividing the ‘Christian’ world into two camps, those who believe in free will (Arminianism) and those who do not (Calvinism). Before we answer this vexed question about man’s free will, we need to first clearly understand the sovereignty of God.

    There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the one true God of the Bible, Yahweh ,is absolutely sovereign over all. He is the creator of all things, living and non-living, and He takes full and complete responsibility not only for all of the good things that exist in His creation, but also, for all of the evil things too. There is absolutely nothing that exists or can exist outside of God’s sovereignty, including Satan.

    So, if your definition of ‘free will’ is the ability to make free choices, totally independent or outside of God’s sovereignty, then there is no such thing as ‘free will’.  However, this is not how the Bible defines ‘free will’. The Bible defines ‘free will’ as the freedom to make choices within the confines and boundaries set by God in accordance with His sovereign purpose for each individual and for all.

    To believe that man has no free will is not an option because there are many verses in the Bible that support the concept of free will, for example: Deuteronomy 30:19, John 7:17, 2 Corinthians 9:7, Galatians 6:7-10 and James 4:7-8. It is important to believe in free will as taught in the Bible. Remove the concept of free will and we create a huge problem in understanding many aspects of life, including the understanding of God’s love and His judgements. Without free will, our prayers and our relationship with God would become meaningless and we really would be reduced to mere robots. Yes, a robot can make choices, but it cannot have relationships.

    In this chapter, we are only concerned with man’s will regarding salvation. We are not concerned with man’s free will regarding mundane everyday living. We know that man is able to exercise free will and make choices in everyday living within his physical, emotional and environmental limitations, all within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty. For example, a man can choose to walk or run, but he can’t choose to fly like a bird because of his physical limitations.

    When God created Adam and Eve in His own image, He created them with free will, meaning a will which was free from sin so that they could have a loving relationship with God and with each other in obedience to the two great commandments of love, love for God and love for fellowman.

    Genesis 1:27
    So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    God is the Potter and we are the clay, and the clay, Adam and Eve, were created with free will to have a loving, meaningful relationship with God and with each other. God did not create man in the image of a robot, without free will. God created Adam and Eve to reflect the most important characteristic of God, which is love. God is love and He is free to show His love to all of His creation. Likewise, He made Adam and Eve in His own image so that they could freely show their love to God and to each other, without sin.

    However, when Adam and Eve sinned by partaking of the forbidden fruit when tempted by Satan, their free will became marred by sin. Of course, God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would succumb to the temptation from Satan, because He knows the end from the beginning.

    Genesis 2:16-17
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    When Adam and Eve sinned, they violated their God-given conscience. They knew that they had done something wrong, therefore, they hid themselves from the presence of God. In the day when Adam and Eve sinned by partaking of the forbidden fruit they truly died, first spiritually and then later physically. Also, because of their sin, sin entered the human world affecting absolutely all of their descendants. The Bible is clear that all people are born unrighteous with a sinful Adamic nature (Romans 3:9-10, 5:12). Fallen man is in bondage to sin, under the influence and deception of Satan, and spiritually dead and separated from God.

    The most important question we need to ask and answer is, ‘Is fallen man, with an unrighteous sinful Adamic nature, free to accept or reject the free gift of God’s salvation?’

    Arminianism, which is by far the majority view of those who claim to be Bible believing Christians, says that ultimately, it is down to a person’s free will to decide whether or not he or she wishes to accept the work of the cross and be saved. This is completely unbiblical.

    Can a dead person make himself alive? If a dead man could make himself alive, then, it would be possible for a spiritually dead unrighteous man to make himself spiritually righteous by coming to Christ of his own volition. Just as it took a supernatural miracle for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead, before Lazarus could move or do anything, so it takes a supernatural miracle to give spiritual righteous life in Christ to a spiritually dead unrighteous person.

    The often mentioned truth in the Bible is that fallen man is only free to sin, but he is not free to come to Christ unless Father God supernaturally draws him to Christ.

    John 6:44
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 

    Yes indeed, Father God must first draw a person to His only begotten Son Jesus Christ before that person understands and believes who the true Christ of the Bible is, and His finished work on the cross for the universal salvation of the whole world.

    John 15:16
    You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 

    This one biblical verse is sufficient, in and of itself, to totally destroy the whole of Arminian theology that says that man’s free will has the ultimate power to choose to either accept or reject God’s salvation. Please note that this scripture tells us that we don’t choose Christ, but Christ chooses us, and He only chooses those who are first drawn by His Father to Him, the Son. Without Father God through His Son first choosing us and empowering us with the gift of faith to believe in the true Christ of the Bible, we cannot be saved.

    Our salvation is not dependent on man’s fallen free will. It is entirely dependent upon God’s will, and it is His Sovereign will to save only the 144,000 Firsfruits before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    The examples of Pharaoh and Apostle Paul

    Let us now look at the examples of Pharaoh and Apostle Paul to learn how man’s free will regarding his salvation operates within the confines of God’s sovereign will and purpose for each individual and for all.

    Several times, the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, but also, several times the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, as demonstrated by the following two verses.

    Exodus 8:32
    But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

    Exodus 9:12
    But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

    These scriptures clearly demonstrate how man’s free will can only operate within the confines of God’s sovereignty. Yes, Pharaoh was responsible for making his own heart hardened, but also, it was God’s sovereign purpose that Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” (Romans 9:17).

    Apostle Paul, before his conversion to Christianity, was a self-righteous Pharisee who zealously persecuted the newly formed Christian church. He was dedicated in his purpose to destroy all those who accepted Jesus Christ, and Paul was even involved in the murder of Stephen. He went from house to house dragging both male and female Christian believers off to prison and tried to get them to deny their faith in Christ.

    Both Pharaoh and Paul had free will in their everyday living and therefore they were responsible for their actions. However, there is a dramatic difference in how God dealt with Pharaoh and how He dealt with Paul. God allowed Pharaoh to remain hardened in his heart. However, God had mercy on Apostle Paul and he was powerfully and supernaturally converted to the Christian faith through his road to Damascus experience. This was because Paul was a chosen vessel of God (one of the 144,000 Firstfruits), chosen to bear God’s name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15).

    God chose to keep Pharaoh’s heart hardened but He chose to have mercy on Paul, according to His sovereign purpose. As Romans 9:18 says, ‘God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden’. Apostle Paul was predestined as one of God’s Elect to be saved in this life, according to God’s sovereign purpose for him, but it was not God’s sovereign purpose to save Pharaoh during this life, but during the next life. Pharaoh will first need to undergo God’s age-to-come righteous, refining Lake of Fire judgement when he rises at the Second Resurrection. This is when Pharaoh’s hardened unrepentant heart will be broken and he will humbly and joyfully accept, through the gift of God given faith, the true Gospel of Jesus Christ for the universal salvation of the whole world, and Pharaoh will be saved.

    Salvation is not a matter of choice or chance; first chance or second chance. Our salvation is the most glorious gift from God to us. Our salvation is one hundred percent the work of God’s grace from start to finish, and man is in no position whatsoever to boast about any aspect of his salvation. Each person is entirely dependent upon God for his salvation and all the glory goes to God, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

    Does the biblical truth of Universal Salvation mean a forced robotic salvation for all? Absolutely not! The Bible says that the Kingdom of God is like treasure hidden in a field, and when a man finds it, he is delighted to keep this treasure at all costs.

    It is God’s most wonderful purpose and plan that all will find this great treasure of the Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ultimately, in God’s time and order extending beyond this age, all without a single exception will come to believe in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nick you need to grow up and walk like a man strong meat belongs to them that are full age, mature Nick. Being a baby in Christ this strong meat will make the choke call out for Jesus Christ if this happens Nick , go back to milk study your way out of this , keep a open mind between God and His word  . You have fall into the trap by the one who is seeking, who he can . The devil,the srepsnt . God bless

    #834207
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony….ALL WILL’S are influenced by something, therefore they are not “free”, all chose whats most influencing them the most. The term “freewill” is an OXYMORON.

    BECAUSE no such thing exists. We are “free” to do what is influencing us, which causes us to chose those desires of ours, but that does not mean our minds are free, but are held captive by what is influencing us the most.

    We are changed by God’s Spirit influencing our mind to do his will,

    Php 2:13…..”For it is God which works in you BOTH TO “WILL” and to do of HIS good pleasure”
    Wills are never free themselves, or they simply would not be a will, because the term will means desires and deaires are all influenced by something, nothing “free” about it, because if our will were truly “free” then nothing would be influencing them right.

    We have been given freedom to excercise our captivated wills by God, but the will itself is the product of influenced desires, so they are not free at all. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #834208
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene

    Yes Gene  For it is God which works in you BOTH TO “WILL” and to do of HIS good pleasure” God bless you

    #834209
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Anthony,

    Indeed God is at work in His children to will and to do.

    But those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his.

    #834210
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Anthony,

    It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    #834211
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Anthony,

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,

    that whoever believes in him should not perish,

    but have eternal life.

     

    one amazing offer.

    #834212
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    Yes Nick they are scriptures :

    You seem to omit the other scriptures I used . Listen Nick unless the Father draws you to His Only begotten Son there is no salvation. You can’t give yourself salvation by your owe will.
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    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 2:47 AM</span>#834203<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> GeneBalthrop
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    TC….spirits have no body. Tell us what your spirit “BODY” looks like if you can.

    Jodi is right and has proved it and so did Anthony, you seem to be caught up in a form of “mystery religion” like the platoian Greeks who also taught of a person still living after death without a resurection of a actual body.

    Jesus plainly to us his resurected body was not a spirit but flesh and bone. But you would have us believe that is not true, Jesus certainly did not agree with you it seems, he had the spirit of the living God in him which dwelt in his physical flesh and bone body.

    Perhaps you never read where Paul said “know you not t h at your ‘Body’ IS THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD, and again God the father speaking first person through Jesus’ mouth said, “destory this TEMPLE and in three days I ‘GOD’ shall raise it up.

    TC you are greately mistaking in what you are saying, forcing the text to meet your ideas is bad form TC. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene

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    <div id=”post-834204″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 3:30 AM</span>#834204<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> Truthcomber
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    Hi Gene,

    I have proven my case to myself.  That is what counts at this moment.  I have shown you the scriptures. You have shown me scriptures which I believe are false interpretations with no cohesiveness. If I do not believe your “so called truth”, you call me a false mystery religion propagator.  I rest my case.  I have provided an exhaustive amount of evidence.  So, what you, Anthony, and Jodi believe to the contrary  are your problem.  At this point,  I really couldn’t care less.  I wash my hands.

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    <div id=”post-834205″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 4:25 AM</span>#834205<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> Anthony
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    Hi Nick

    You say just kick your feet up and relax.  apparently you know nothing about The Father’s WILL and man’s will. Nick to me your the one relaxing, you just make your beleif by how you feel no kind of respect for what scriptures says , your twisting scriptures.how your feel really no thought for what the Father says, you make a game out of His word Nick, of some kind. Let’s talk about The will and how ,  people believe in it.k

    Do you profess to be a Bible believing Christian? All Bible believing Christians fall into one of three categories of Christian beliefs, known as Calvinism, Arminianism and Universalism. These are the three distinct and separate schools of Christian theology. With regard to salvation, every professing Christian inevitably falls into one of them, whether he understands or is aware of these terms or not. So, if you claim to be a Bible believing Christian, after you remove all of your denominational clothing, you are a Calvinist Christian, or an Arminian Christian or a Universalist Christian.

    Each belief claims to be biblically based, and theologians have argued and debated the issues relating to them for centuries. However, the core differences between these three beliefs are irreconcilable. It is not our intention to go into a detailed complicated theological analysis of each belief system, but only to highlight and summarise the core differences between them.

    What is Calvinism?

    Calvinism is a system of theological belief promoted by the French man, John Calvin (1509-1564), and expressed in the document ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion’. It laid the foundation for the Reformed Theology of the Reformation period, and Calvinism is the basis for the doctrine of many Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican and Reformed churches.

    According to Calvin: Before the beginning of the world, God predestined<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>to save a certain group of people called<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>God’s Elect. God’s sovereign will for the salvation of these Elect cannot be resisted or thwarted, as his irresistible grace ensures that all of them will willingly accept Jesus Christ at some point in their lives before they die. The<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>non-Elect<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>cannot come to Christ because natural fallen man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the Elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the non-Elect, the vast majority of humanity) will be judged by God and cast into hell where they will be<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>tortured forever.

    What is Arminianism?

    Arminianism is a system of theological belief promoted by the Dutch man, Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). Arminius started out as a strict Calvinist, but later changed his views as stated in the document ‘The Remonstrance’. Arminianism is the theological basis for Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Free Will Baptists, Holiness churches and many charismatic churches. Roman Catholicism is also basically Arminian in its belief.

    According to Arminius: Jesus Christ died for all people and God wills all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. However, God’s will can be frustrated and thwarted by man and God’s grace can be resisted by<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>mans free will. This is because it is left up to each person to ultimately decide whether he wishes to be saved or not. Therefore, in order to go to heaven each person must<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>choose<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>to accept Jesus Christ before he dies. All those who die without choosing Christ (the vast majority of humanity) will be judged by God and cast into hell, where they will be<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>tortured forever.

    What is Biblical Universalism?

    Biblical Universalism is the belief that ultimately everyone will be saved through the shed blood of God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. Origen of Alexandria (185-254 AD) is the earliest known Christian theologian to have written about Universalism. However, Origen did not have the revelation of true Biblical Universalism believed by Apostle Paul and the very early Christians.

    According to the Bible: God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross to forgive the sins of the whole world, and He is indeed the Saviour of the whole world.

    The powerful truth of the Bible is that God has solved the problem of sin<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>once and for all<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>through the sacrifice made on the cross by His only begotten Son for the sins of the whole world (Romans 6:10, 1 John 2:2). The Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6), and when sin abounds, grace abounds much more (Romans 5:20). Yes, everybody is born a sinner because of one man’s sin, Adam’s sin (Romans 5:12), but everybody is destined to become righteous because of one Man’s righteousness, Jesus Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:18-19).

    God is not desperately trying to save the whole world during this life, and Satan is not winning hands down by taking all unbelievers, who are the overwhelming majority of humanity, to hell when they die. These multitudes, billions upon billions of unsaved people, are not lost forever because God will save all of them after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    God’s Plan is to first call and save a few in this life before they die. They are His Elect Saints, who are a set number of Jewish Elect together with a set number of Gentile Elect, referred to as the Firstfruits. They will rise in the First Resurrection in their glorified immortal spirit bodies as the Bride of Christ, at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, to rule and reign with Christ forever. However, all those who die as unbelievers, both from the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations, will rise in the Second Resurrection and they will first need to undergo God’s refining Lake of Fire judgement during the Great White Throne Judgement Day, before they are saved and hence all of them will enter the Kingdom of God.

    Which God are you serving?

    The god of Calvinism<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for his elect few only, and he predestined only his elect to be saved. This must also mean that he predestined, knowingly and willingly, to cast the vast majority of humanity no (the non-elect) into hell to be tortured forever. This makes the god of Calvinism an evil god, infinitely and unimaginably more evil than Hitler could ever be.

    The god of Arminianism<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all people, and he wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, but he has made himself weak and helpless to save all people by allowing man’s fallen free will to override his will in salvation. Against his will, the god of Arminianism is force itd to throw the vast majority of humanity into hell to be tortured , because for one reason or another, they failed to accept Jesus Christ in this life before they died. Even worse than that, the god of Arminianism knowingly and willingly created human beings with the full foreknowledge that the vast majority of them would reject salvation and end up being tortured in hell forever. This makes the god of Arminianism both an evil god, as evil as the god of Calvinism, and a weak god who allows the free will of sinful fallen man to override his will in salvation.

    The God of the Bible, the one true Father God<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>Yahweh , so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ Yeshua , to sacrificially die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Jesus Christ died for all people; past, present and future, and God wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. He has unlimited love and power to save all people in His time and in His order, extending beyond this age. This makes the one true God of the Bible the all-powerful, all-loving, wise, just, merciful, forgiving and gracious Father God.

    Conclusion

    Make no mistake about it. You are profoundly affected by how you understand these three beliefs: Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism. Your understanding of God’s sovereignty, His love, His justice, His righteousness, His forgiveness and His grace are all fundamentally governed by your belief system.

    People who believe that God will punish unbelievers in hell forever or annihilate them<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>limit<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>God’s sovereignty, power, love, justice, forgiveness, grace and the very Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. They deny that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is indeed the Saviour of the world.

    Calvinism and Arminianism are both man-invented theologies that deny the true Christ of the Bible and His finished work on the cross for the universal salvation of the whole world. God bless Nick

     

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    <div id=”post-834206″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 4:47 AM</span>#834206<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> Anthony
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    Hi Nick

    Has God created man with free will? The debate about whether man has free will or not has been going on for centuries, dividing the ‘Christian’ world into two camps, those who believe in free will (Arminianism) and those who do not (Calvinism). Before we answer this vexed question about man’s free will, we need to first clearly understand the sovereignty of God.

    There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the one true God of the Bible,<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>Yahweh ,is absolutely sovereign over all. He is the creator of all things, living and non-living, and He takes full and complete responsibility not only for all of the good things that exist in His creation, but also, for all of the evil things too. There is absolutely nothing that exists or can exist outside of God’s sovereignty, including Satan.

    So, if your definition of ‘free will’ is the ability to make free choices, totally independent or outside of God’s sovereignty, then there is no such thing as ‘free will’.  However, this is not how the Bible defines ‘free will’. The Bible defines ‘free will’ as the freedom to make choices<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>within<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>the confines and boundaries set by God in accordance with His sovereign purpose for each individual and for all.

    To believe that man has no free will is not an option because there are many verses in the Bible that support the concept of free will, for example: Deuteronomy 30:19, John 7:17, 2 Corinthians 9:7, Galatians 6:7-10 and James 4:7-8. It is important to believe in free will as taught in the Bible. Remove the concept of free will and we create a<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>huge<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>problem in understanding many aspects of life, including the understanding of God’s love and His judgements. Without free will, our prayers and our relationship with God would become meaningless and we really would be reduced to mere robots. Yes, a robot can make choices, but it cannot have relationships.

    In this chapter, we are only concerned with man’s will regarding salvation. We are not concerned with man’s free will regarding mundane everyday living. We know that man is able to exercise free will and make choices in everyday living within his physical, emotional and environmental limitations, all within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty. For example, a man can choose to walk or run, but he can’t choose to fly like a bird because of his physical limitations.

    When God created Adam and Eve in His own image, He created them with free will, meaning a will which was free from sin so that they could have a loving relationship with God and with each other in obedience to the two great commandments of love, love for God and love for fellowman.

    Genesis 1:27
    So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    God is the Potter and we are the clay, and the clay, Adam and Eve, were created with free will to have a loving, meaningful relationship with God and with each other. God did not create man in the image of a robot, without free will. God created Adam and Eve to reflect the most important characteristic of God, which is love. God is love and He is free to show His love to all of His creation. Likewise, He made Adam and Eve in His own image so that they could freely show their love to God and to each other, without sin.

    However, when Adam and Eve sinned by partaking of the forbidden fruit when tempted by Satan, their free will became marred by sin. Of course, God knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would succumb to the temptation from Satan, because He knows the end from the beginning.

    Genesis 2:16-17
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    When Adam and Eve sinned, they violated their God-given conscience. They knew that they had done something wrong, therefore, they hid themselves from the presence of God. In the day when Adam and Eve sinned by partaking of the forbidden fruit they truly died, first spiritually and then later physically. Also, because of their sin, sin entered the human world affecting absolutely all of their descendants. The Bible is clear that all people are born unrighteous with a sinful Adamic nature (Romans 3:9-10, 5:12). Fallen man is in bondage to sin, under the influence and deception of Satan, and spiritually dead and separated from God.

    The most important question we need to ask and answer is, ‘Is fallen man, with an unrighteous sinful Adamic nature, free to accept or reject the free gift of God’s salvation?’

    Arminianism, which is by far the majority view of those who claim to be Bible believing Christians, says that ultimately, it is down to a person’s free will to decide whether or not he or she wishes to accept the work of the cross and be saved.<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>This is completely unbiblical.

    Can a dead person make himself alive? If a dead man could make himself alive, then, it would be possible for a spiritually dead unrighteous man to make himself spiritually righteous by coming to Christ of his own volition. Just as it took a supernatural miracle for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead, before Lazarus could move or do anything, so it takes a supernatural miracle to give spiritual righteous life in Christ to a spiritually dead unrighteous person.

    The often mentioned truth in the Bible is that fallen man is only free to sin, but he is not free to come to Christ<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>unless<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>Father God supernaturally draws him to Christ.

    John 6:44
    No one<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>can come to Me<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>unless<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>

    Yes indeed, Father God must first draw a person to His only begotten Son Jesus Christ before that person understands and believes who the true Christ of the Bible is, and His finished work on the cross for the universal salvation of the whole world.

    John 15:16
    You did not choose Me, but I chose you<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>

    This one biblical verse is sufficient, in and of itself, to totally destroy the whole of Arminian theology that says that man’s free will has the ultimate power to choose to either accept or reject God’s salvation. Please note that this scripture tells us that we don’t choose Christ, but Christ chooses us, and He only chooses those who are first drawn by His Father to Him, the Son. Without Father God through His Son first choosing us and empowering us with the gift of faith to believe in the true Christ of the Bible, we cannot be saved.

    Our salvation is not dependent on man’s fallen free will. It is entirely dependent upon God’s will, and it is His Sovereign will to save only the 144,000 Firsfruits before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    The examples of Pharaoh and Apostle Paul

    Let us now look at the examples of Pharaoh and Apostle Paul to learn how man’s free will regarding his salvation operates within the confines of God’s sovereign will and purpose for each individual and for all.

    Several times, the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, but also, several times the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, as demonstrated by the following two verses.

    Exodus 8:32
    But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

    Exodus 9:12
    But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

    These scriptures clearly demonstrate how man’s free will can only operate within the confines of God’s sovereignty. Yes, Pharaoh was responsible for making his own heart hardened, but also, it was God’s sovereign purpose that Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>(Romans 9:17).

    Apostle Paul, before his conversion to Christianity, was a self-righteous Pharisee who zealously persecuted the newly formed Christian church. He was dedicated in his purpose to destroy all those who accepted Jesus Christ, and Paul was even involved in the murder of Stephen. He went from house to house dragging both male and female Christian believers off to prison and tried to get them to deny their faith in Christ.

    Both Pharaoh and Paul had free will in their everyday living and therefore they were responsible for their actions. However, there is a dramatic difference in how God dealt with Pharaoh and how He dealt with Paul. God allowed Pharaoh to remain hardened in his heart. However, God had mercy on Apostle Paul and he was powerfully and supernaturally converted to the Christian faith through his road to Damascus experience. This was because Paul was a chosen vessel of God (one of the 144,000 Firstfruits), chosen to bear God’s name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15).

    God chose to keep Pharaoh’s heart hardened but He chose to have mercy on Paul, according to His sovereign purpose. As Romans 9:18 says,<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>‘God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden’. Apostle Paul was predestined as one of God’s Elect to be saved in this life, according to God’s sovereign purpose for him, but it was not God’s sovereign purpose to save Pharaoh during this life, but during the next life. Pharaoh will first need to undergo God’s age-to-come righteous, refining Lake of Fire judgement when he rises at the Second Resurrection. This is when Pharaoh’s hardened unrepentant heart will be broken and he will humbly and joyfully accept, through the gift of God given faith, the true Gospel of Jesus Christ for the universal salvation of the whole world, and Pharaoh will be saved.

    Salvation is not a matter of choice or chance; first chance or second chance. Our salvation is the most glorious gift from God to us. Our salvation is one hundred percent the work of God’s grace from start to finish, and man is in no position whatsoever to boast about any aspect of his salvation. Each person is entirely dependent upon God for his salvation and all the glory goes to God, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

    Does the biblical truth of Universal Salvation mean a forced robotic salvation for all? Absolutely not! The Bible says that the Kingdom of God is like treasure hidden in a field, and when a man finds it, he is delighted to keep this treasure at all costs.

    It is God’s most wonderful purpose and plan that all will find this great treasure of the Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ultimately, in God’s time and order extending beyond this age, all without a single exception will come to believe in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nick you need to grow up and walk like a man strong meat belongs to them that are full age, mature Nick. Being a baby in Christ this strong meat will make the choke call out for Jesus Christ if this happens Nick , go back to milk study your way out of this , keep a open mind between God and His word  . You have fall into the trap by the one who is seeking, who he can . The devil,the srepsnt . God bless

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    <div id=”post-834207″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 5:43 AM</span>#834207<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”odd bbp-parent-forum-3093 bbp-parent-topic-265236 bbp-reply-position-5 user-id-1132 post-834207 reply type-reply status-publish hentry”>
    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> GeneBalthrop
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    Anthony….ALL WILL’S are influenced by something, therefore they are not “free”, all chose whats most influencing them the most. The term “freewill” is an OXYMORON.

    BECAUSE no such thing exists. We are “free” to do what is influencing us, which causes us to chose those desires of ours, but that does not mean our minds are free, but are held captive by what is influencing us the most.

    We are changed by God’s Spirit influencing our mind to do his will,

    Php 2:13…..”For it is God which works in you BOTH TO “WILL” and to do of HIS good pleasure”
    Wills are never free themselves, or they simply would not be a will, because the term will means desires and deaires are all influenced by something, nothing “free” about it, because if our will were truly “free” then nothing would be influencing them right.

    We have been given freedom to excercise our captivated wills by God, but the will itself is the product of influenced desires, so they are not free at all. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

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    <div id=”post-834208″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 6:48 AM</span>#834208<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> Anthony
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    Hi Gene

    Yes Gene  For it is God which works in you BOTH TO “WILL” and to do of HIS good pleasure” God bless you

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    <div id=”post-834209″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 7:26 AM</span>#834209<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> NickHassan
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    Hi Anthony,

    Indeed God is at work in His children to will and to do.

    But those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his.

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    <div id=”post-834210″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 10:12 AM</span>#834210<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> NickHassan
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    Hi Anthony,

    It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

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    <div id=”post-834211″ class=”bbp-reply-header”>
    <div class=”bbp-meta”><span class=”bbp-reply-post-date”>SEPTEMBER 11, 2018 AT 4:23 PM</span>#834211<span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REPLY</span></div>
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    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”> NickHassan
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    Hi Anthony,

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,

    that whoever believes in him should not perish,

    but have eternal life

    Nick ” the whoever that believes in Him” . Have to be drawn by the Father, during this present age the ones that are drawn by the Father are the firstfruits. That will be resurrected at The return of Christ. (Second coming.  This is my point Nick. You make this out that anyone can do this without the drawing from the Father, I know Nick that some believe like you. didn’t you read my post? But unless there drawn there not saved simple as that no more no less, and then Repentance. God bless what do you think Nick, If you believe like you do , then Nick you can say as, you did . Just kick your feet back and relax. Specially if you believe that you  are once save always without the drawing from the Father. God bless

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    #834213
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    Well my phone is messed up all try sending this again but have to go  to the V.A. right now. God bless

    #834214
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Anthony,

    For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God;for He gives the Spirit without measure.

    The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,

    but the wrath of God abides on him.

    jn3.34

    Universalism is a lie.

    #834215
     Anthony 
    Participant
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    Hi Nick  you said

    Hi Anthony,

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,

    that whoever believes in him should not perish,

    but have eternal life

    Nick ” the whoever that believes in Him” . Have to be drawn by the Father, during this present age the ones that are drawn by the Father are the firstfruits. That will be resurrected at The return of Christ. (Second coming.  This is my point Nick. You make this out that anyone can do this without the drawing from the Father, I know Nick that some believe like you. didn’t you read my post? But unless there drawn there not saved simple as that no more no less, and then Repentance. God bless what do you think Nick, If you believe like you do , then Nick you can say as, you did . Just kick your feet back and relax. Specially if you believe that you  are once save always without the drawing from the Father. God bless

    #834216
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 71,005

    Hi Anthony,

    Yes. Then pray that you are drawn by the Father.

    All will not be rescued from His wrath.

    Eight were saved in the ark.

     

    1Peter 3.

    #834217
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 845

    Hi Nick

    You said, Universalism is a lie.

    What I think  Nick is that you are believing a lie. Nick , you don’t even believe that man dies, Nick, you really have you mysterious doctorines, I believe I’m seing this right. You must be drawn by the Father.   Not your will but His.

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