Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,675 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #834398
     Ed J 
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    Hi Gene,

    Mystery Babylon is about islam. It is not about
    those who disagree with your doctrines.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #834410
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

     

    You: First, simply to speak of a “resurrection” of the dead (Matthew 22:30-31; Luke 14:14; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) is to imply physicality. That is what a resurrection is. The Bible has no categories for the concept of a resurrected body that remains dead and physically lying in a grave.

    Me:

    1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,…43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Me: our natural bodies will rot away return to the dust. We will have bodies that are glorious.

    It will not a spiritual body in the sense that it is composed of spirit which cannot be seen; it is a spiritual body in the sense that it is of the holy spirit and in the image of our physical bodies. The physical body is in the bodily mage of the human spirit. The spiritual body is the bodily image of the holy spirit. We bear the image of Christ

    #834411
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

     

    You: Second, Philippians 3:20-21 a) teaches us that Christ’s resurrection body is the pattern of our resurrection body: “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory.”

    Me: a) Christ will transform or lowly bodies into glorious ones. Hurray, correct. Did Christ have a glorious body when the apostle touched him? No he did not.

    Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias…9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Me: Notice the apostles recognized the human figures of Christ, Moses, and Elias.  Anthony this is a vision of how Christ looks like now. We also will shine like the stars in heaven. We will not have a body composed of flesh. It would be burnt up.

    Rev 21 :1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.:

    Me: All things will be new. That includes our bodies. Will the angels, who men saw and were in stalk awe have glorious bodies and not Christ.

    You: b) We know that Christ was raised in a physical body because the disciples ate with Him after the resurrection (Acts 10:41) and touched Him (Matthew 28:9; see also John 20:27). Also, Jesus outright declared that His resurrection body was physical and touchable: “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39; see also Acts 13:33-37). Since Christ’s resurrection is the pattern of our resurrection, we will therefore be raised in a physical body as well.

    Me: He was raised as a physical man first.

    John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Me: He was glorified when he had ascended into heaven. That was foreseen by God before Christ existed.

    Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    #834412
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

    1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 450 above “will rise”.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm

    Alternative Definition:

    2. to arise, appear, stand forth; of kings, prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents: Acts 5:36; Acts 7:18. middle, Romans 15:12; Hebrews 7:11, 15. of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, Luke 10:25; Acts 6:9; or to undertake some business, Acts 5:6; or to attempt something against others, Acts 5:17. Hence, ἀναστῆναι ἐπί τινα to rise up against anyone: Mark 3:26 (עַל קוּם). (Synonym: see ἐγείρω, at the end Compare: ἐπανίστημι, ἐξανίστημι.)

    Me: So, “rise” is used to mean appear in the above verses. The word 450. anistémi is used overwhelming as an intransigent verb with no object. So, 1 Thes 4:16 could very well read:

    1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall appear first.

    Me: As I have explained previously, the dead in Christ are the ones who have completely died to self. They have resurrected spiritually and are with Christ at their deaths. Those alive will die to self afterwards, for it is appointed men to die once and for all. Then they will meet those in the air with Christ and the rest of the saints.
    How could those in the dust rise first before those in air that had risen already?

    #834413
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi Anthony,

     

    You: Fourth, Jesus speaks of the resurrection as involving the coming forth of individuals out of their tombs, which clearly indicates a physical concept of the resurrection: “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).

    Me:
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Me: Those dead saints prior to Pentecost will live. Those alive will never die in they endure to the end of their lives. Spirits can live without body. Our heavenly father is invisible spirit. He has live without a body from eternity.  “They that hear” is not everyone that died but a select few, the OT saints which includes Job.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Me: This is the resurrection of the dead at the end of the millennium.

     

     

     

    #834414
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

     

    You: Fifth, the Old Testament speaks of the resurrection as being physical: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2).

    Me: This corresponds to:

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    And not to John 5:25 in which the OT saints are resurrected after Pentecost., including Job below.

    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Click on the link below: Then click on 1320
    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/19-26.htm

    anyone* (1), bodies (2), body (39), fatter* (1), flesh (176), gaunt* (3), lustful* (1), man (1), mankind (3), mankind* (1), meat (34), men (1), person (1).

    Me: In light of all that was presented, body is the best definition, because we will have a new glorified body. Notice, the present body is destroyed.

    Job 19:26 JAnd though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my body shall I see God:

    #834415
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony,

    2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    Me: Our tent or tabernacle live in here on earth s a temporary dwelling

     

    #834416
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Me: This should be my last post on this subject since I believe nothing more of significance can be added.

    #834452
     Ed J 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene,

    Mystery Babylon is about islam. It is not about
    those who disagree with your doctrines.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    Gene?

    #834455
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 43
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    Edj….Show scripture, to support your conclusions, islam did not even exist when those scriptures speaking of mystery bablyon were written, and the word bablyon simply means confusion, as present christainity is today, and doctrines like JESUS BEING A GOD AND HIM PREXISTING HIS BIRTH ON THIS EARTH, all lies and workings of Satan.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #834459
     Ed J 
    Participant
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    Edj….Show scripture, to support your conclusions, islam did not even exist when those scriptures speaking of mystery bablyon were written

    Hi Gene,

    “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains,
    on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
    and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,
    he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was,
    and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven,
    and goeth into perdition.” (Rev 17:9-11)

    #834470
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
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    Hi Gene

    You answers to to your comments on  my post. For one Jesus Christ pre-existed before anything was created.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word(God the Son), and the Word was with God (God the Father)and the Word was God (God the Son).

    This scripture is greatly misinterpreted to support the false doctrine of the Trinity, but the fact is that it actually disproves the Trinity. When correctly understood John 1:1 supports the truth that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and the only begotten God.

    In the beginning was the Word; please understand that the Bible would never ever say that in the beginning was Father God. Why not? Because Father God has no beginning. However, God the Son Jesus had a beginning, therefore, John 1:1 above says, “In the beginning was the Word.” This confirms the truth of the Bible that the Son had a beginning when Father God begot (birthed) Him in the beginning. The birth of the Son of God was the beginning of all beginnings, the most magnificent birth, which was the very first glorious event that happened before anything was created.

    and the Word was with God; the Word, referring to God the Son Jesus Christ, was with His Father God from the beginning when He was begotten by His Father God. This beginning was beforethe beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, as mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

    and the Word was God; of course, Jesus is God because He is God the Son, and He belongs to the one Holy God Elohim Family of Father and Son. However, God the Son Jesus (Yeshua) is not a co-equal God to His Father (Yahweh). They are two separate Persons of Father and Son, and the Father is always greater than the Son, as clearly stated many times in Scripture. Jesus Christ is similar to His Father God in several respects. Just like His Father, Jesus Christ is Spirit, uncreated, immortal, holy and righteous, yet He is a separate God, God the Son, who is always subordinate to His Father God and a willing Servant to Him (Mark 16:19, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 11:3, John 14:28).

    The truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was born of His Father before the world existed is also clearly stated in the book of Proverbs.

    Proverbs 8:24-30 (NIV)
    24 When there were no oceans,I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth. 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his (Father’s)side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence.

    Although these verses speak about ‘the Wisdom of God’, they are actually referring to Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul says that Christ is the wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24. Proverbs 8:24-30 above is a clear scripture proving the truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ was birthed by His Father God before the world existed, before Father God created all things through His Son Jesus.

    1 John 5:1
    Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God(Father God), and everyone who loves Him (Father God)who begot also loves him(Jesus Christ) who is begottenof Him (Father God).

    Once again, the Bible emphasises the same truth that Father God begot His Son and the Son was begotten of His Father .                  now to your comments and teaching on the man of perdition (sin) you said that, basically that man is claiming that the only begotten Son is God, also saying that was what the gnostic we’re saying the Jesus Christ was God. There’s alot of different groups for what they consider gnostic. I’ll show you that some was saying that Jesus Christ is just a man, Just like your saying.you Just don’t say that Jesus Christ “as just man”was adopted at His Baptismal.I take it you don’t know and realize that oughta for a man to be the only Son of God would have to be adopted by the Father (God), as Jesus Christ was adopted by Joseph. To be from the line of David.(adopted) God bless.

     

    #834513
     Ed J 
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    Gene?

    #834593
     Ed J 
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    Gene?

    #834912
     t8 
    Participant
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    Are some here preaching an earthly body gospel?

    #834913
     t8 
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    To all… nothing has changed with JESUS’ APERANCE, HE IS THE EXACT SAME PERSON HE WAS, ONLY HIS BODY CAN NOT ANY LONGER DIE, AND HE HAS NOW RECIEVED A CROWN OF GLORY, AS ALL WHO ARE TRUE BELIEVERS WILL.

    Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

    But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

    It seems that this clay body could be a seed for the heavenly body rather than wearing the same exact clay body as the spiritual body. John admitted that he was somewhat in the dark about the kind of body we will receive.

    Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
    But Paul had this to say regarding what we know about heavenly things.

    “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known”

    Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    What we do know from reading scripture is Jesus was raised in his body and in glory has different colour hair, but that has probably more to do with the glory he is shining. We also read about angels who are spirits but come to this realm as men and can even eat. Surely we are somewhat in the dark about the body we inherit, it seems that it can adapt to the realm it is in though.

    The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.…

    But we know our body will be TRANSFORMED. Notice that word has the word FORMED in it.

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    So we will be transformed from earthly to heavenly. And surely we need to be careful about peddling a gospel where we will have an  earthly body after the resurrection.

    And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

    #834944
     Jodi 
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    Good Morning T8 and All,

    There are a few key things I see that people are misunderstanding and therefore they cannot see the truth as it is shown quite clearly in many places.

    Earthly man verses heavenly man,

    What is the difference? 

    First let’s recognize that the word man here is the Greek word for a human being.

    So what we have is the Earthly human being verses the heavenly human being.

    Earthly human beings,

    We know quite clearly from multitudes of scripture throughout the bible that the earthly human being represents the human being who is ignorant of God and through following his own imagination he is able to invent lies and deceit.  We are also given a comparison in the bible where when human beings sin they are acting like natural brute beasts. Natural– meaning inborn- governed by instincts, Brutecontrary/destitute of reason, Beast – a living being, animal.  We are told that the earthly human being is in bondage to the fear of death, like animals we are governed by instincts, when there is a perceivable threat we are subjected to an instinctual response that comes from our brains, fight, flight, or freeze. Many animals have this same inborn response in their brains. Other instincts include procreation, to be territorial and dominant. We also must eat in order to stay alive, we must serve our bodies in order to live. Our mind devices ways in which to serve our weak mortal bodies that hunger, that get tired, that feel pain, that instinctively fear death and subsequently instinctively have a desire to live.

    YHWH is the source of truth, human beings do not discover truth on their own. Without God human beings are governed by instincts and emotions, they are ignorant and destitute from any reasonable thing, like a dog that returns to his own vomit. YHWH is the source of all that is good, as Jesus said not one is good, God alone is good. As told in Galatians 5 those who are ignorant of God when they set out to serve their flesh apart from God’s truth and God’s goodness you find envy, strife, murder, sexual immorality, lies, deceit, idolatry, hatred, etc. The fruits of God’s Spirit bring love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. The power of God’s Spirit over the living being, the human being causes him to overcome his carnal mind. A human being transforms from a living creature, a living beast into an image of God. We are the only living creature on earth that God gave this capability to, as he designed our brains/our minds capable of taking on the knowledge of God. When we do not have God’s mercy, God’s Spirit working in us we are no different than a snake, or a dog, or a lion, or a vulture.

    The heavenly human being,

    First point that I have is that we recognize what the word “heavenly” represents. Not the sky, not like that of some other creature that may dwell in the sky, but godly of God. The heavenly human being is a human being that is godly, righteous, of God, an image of Him. 

    When Jesus was a mortal he was led by the Spirit without measure, he was able to overcome the carnal mind. He was tempted but being full of God’s Spirit in his mind full of wisdom, understanding, knowledge and power, he was able to overcome his carnal mind and live without sin, he lived as a heavenly human being. Without sin found in him he dwelt in the image of God, he was of God, he was godly, he was righteous. He however was not yet a perfect human being, not until he showed the ultimate act of faith, not until he went up to the cross. He also was not the perfect image of God yet, as God is eternal life and he was mortal. His mind was perfected, he had overcome the will of man and perfectly followed the will of God going to the cross, his mind was the perfect image of God, but his body however wasn’t as it could die and did die. Jesus was the holy one of God, where his flesh was spotless and without blemish, even though it could be tempted. For this reason God raised it from the dead without allowing it to decay, he was not deserving of death, nor decay. He had to die, but God would not have this body without spot or blemish decay. What God did with this body was complete it in His image, which was to give it eternal life. God quickened his spirit, brought it back to life in a body that had not decayed but had received eternal life. This is why we see in 1 Corinthians 15 that Jesus was RAISED in power, RAISED in glory. The question was in this chapter but how are the DEAD RASIED UP, with what BODY do they COME with. What body did Jesus come with when he ROSE UP from the DEAD?  He was raised up with the body that didn’t decay, but it was a body of flesh and bones, not with blood, but having received the water of the fountain of life.
    God fulfilled his promise that He had made before he created heaven and earth, eternal life for HUMAN BEINGS.
    Key misunderstanding here are the words spiritual and heavenly.
    Those who mind the weak flesh and their ignorance and their imagination are earthly.
    Those that have God’s mercy and His Spirit working in them, mind the will of God and are spiritual. Heavenly is to be of God, it is to be righteous minded as He is,  and it is to have an eternal body like He does.
    What is entirely overlooked is that the word man means human being, and human being represents one specific “kind” of creature that God created. His whole purpose was to bring this “kind” into eternal life, that is why it is said that God made human beings in His image. Paul tells us that “kinds” do not change into another “kind”, each seed bears it’s own fruit after it’s own kind.
    Jesus was raised and exists still as this same “kind” of creature that God had made. We are told repeatedly that Jesus the Christ who sits at God’s right hand and is returning to earth is STILL that SAME “kind”, he is emphatically called such multiple times after he was raised from the dead. He is a HUMAN BEING, a Son of a HUMAN BEING of the lineage of David and of Abraham. 
    Jesus is no longer of blood, blood is what carries oxygen that we breath and nutrients that we eat to our cells in order to keep us mortals alive. Jesus is still flesh and bones, what he has now instead of blood is the water of the fountain of life flowing through him!!!

     

    #834945
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
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    Jodi……very good post, sis.

    Peace and love to you and yours ………gene

    #834946
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Jodi,

    God has an ETERNAL BODY?

    Show us from scripture.

    You ascribe great abilities to weak man. Nonsense.

    Satan is the one who manifests his nature through his puppets.

    The whole world is under the power of the evil one.

    #834947
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,709

    Nick,

    Show me where I said that God has an eternal body?

    I said God is ETERNAL, not that He has an eternal body!!

    Jesus has been given an eternal body by His Eternal Almighty Creator. They are both eternal, not they both have an eternal body, and they certainly do not have the same body.

    Nick there are no puppets, we are not God’s puppets nor are we some other created being’s puppets. If evil men were puppets, they would not be at fault for sin. A puppet does not speak from it’s own imagination, it does not create actions through itself. Why you deny hundreds of scripture is beyond me.

    Lions are not puppets either, they are living beings that God designed how it is that they will function. Lions currently hunt and eat other creatures. He gave them instincts which we also have such as fight, flight, or freeze. In His kingdom He will change the lion to eat grass instead of flesh, the lion will no longer be wild, he will no longer experience fight, flight, or freeze. The lion will still be a lion, but how he has been made to function will be changed.

    In the resurrection of those who are Christ’s human beings rise from the dead with a body that functions differently then it did when it was mortal. It has a body that can no longer be tempted and can no longer die, such a change would cause a human being to function differently now wouldn’t it?

    This particular living creature that God made, the human being, will function under the will of God alone, he will function according to God’s truth and God’s wisdom, no longer left to an imagination that is filled with ignorance. The entire earth will be filled with the knowledge of our Creator and His intended design, with each kind of living creature functioning according to what is pleasing to Him. The whole earth will dwell in peace and harmony because of it. 

     

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