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A few post back I made a statement of how the christian is taught the bible confirms itself; now I have a passage that states exactly that, Amos 3:7 “For the Lord God will not do anything in the world, unless He first revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets, in order to warn the people.” So nothing is hidden and if the Jesus was this suffering, dying, rising from the dead, atonement for sin, and returning at a later date messiah then the prophets would have revealed it.
There is NOTHING in the Tanakh that states The Messiah was to die for the sins of anyone! What it does say is each individual is responsible for their own sin. Nothing about The Messiah coming, not do anything he was prophesied to do, be killed, rise from the dead, and return at a future date 100’s of years into the future (even though the Jesus said he would return in the apostles time).
Sorry Proclaimer, “Progressive revelation” flies out the window, rendering it a false teaching.
The chapter before (52) and after (54) are also about Israel; so why is 53 suddenly about the Jesus?
@DT
Thank you for your response.So according to your understanding, 53:6 would be Israel.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him (Israel) the iniquity of us all.This cannot be the case, the Lord hath not laid on Israel the iniquity of us all.
Because it is a person and not a people.,,,👉his face was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
He is despised and rejected of men; 👉 a man 👈 of sorrows, and acquainted with grievance: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
And he made, 👉 his grave 👈 with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; 👉because he had done👉no violence👈,
👉neither was any disappointment in his mouth.👈To see in these verses—and the others in chapters 52 and 53—a proclamation concerning the people as a whole is to do violence to the text and force the interpretation. Viewed in isolation, the passages point rather to a single individual.
99.9999% on Earth are blinded by the darkness, 99% of all religion is false.
Where did you get these statistics?? There are about 8 billion people on this planet, it would mean there are only 800,000 who aren’t “blinded by the darkness.” This is an interesting statistic considering there are an estimated 9 million Jehovah Witnesses in the world today. If we were to assume your faith is the only faith that is “true” which means there are about 8.2 million of your faith that are “blinded by the darkness.” AND of the approximate 40,000 different faiths in the world today, there would be 400 of them who have it correct (which ones are they?). AND that would mean there is an average of 2000 people per faith that live in the light. Were you exaggerating your numbers?
Thinking out loud…I must know why you think “man lives in fear – not love”; that’s quite a blanket statement. You’re half right though; but it’s not a “fear” problem, it’s a “love” problem. I have personally experienced the lack of “love” inside the “christian church” where I currently live and was called an “outsider” by the same people and treated as such. I didn’t belong because I wasn’t from here. Do you “love” your “neighbor” or do you only associate with people of the same faith?
The whole tribulation thing, read Amos 3:7 and where was this prophesied in the Tanakh? Also, read Matthew chapter 24 and who’s generation was the Jesus speaking of when he said “this generation will not pass away (vs34)”? The Jesus references Daniel’s prophecy in vs15 of the destruction of the Temple; it was their generation that saw the Temple destroyed and the Jesus says it was after the Temple’s destruction that he was returning. Please define “soon”, the word the Jesus used in Rev 1:1; 22:6,7,12,20. My understanding of soon isn’t 2000 years.
You really need to live up to your moniker “Berean”…remember they are the ones who verified everything.
Don’t thank me for filling in the blanks you were asked to fill in; that’s laziness on your part or the lack of understanding.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him (Israel) the iniquity of us all.
This cannot be the case, the Lord hath not laid on Israel the iniquity of us all.
Because it is a person and not a people.
This is christianities confusion, “us all” to the chrisitian is all of mankind throughout all history whose sins are heaped upon one man and that is not the case. Who then is the “us all”? This is why one must identify who is speaking throughout the chapter. In vs1 who is the “our” that is giving this report? This “our” is the “we” and “us” of vs6. You CANNOT ignore grammar! I have already told you it is the nations speaking and since it’s the nations speaking, it is they who harmed the servant and this was the nations’ sin the servant bore, the servant was NOT a substitute sacrifice as taught by christianity.
The christian interpretation makes no sense of it being the Jesus when the previous chapters identify the servant as being Israel and Jacob, IN THE SINGULAR! Explain the sudden shift!
his face was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men
he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
So these passages describe the servant as being either too ugly to be human in appearance, or too plain-looking to notice him. Yet, every picture of the Jesus is a handsome man and, as a carpenter, would have been muscular. In Luke is states “Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man.” Sounds like the Jesus wasn’t “ugly” and was desired.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grievance: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
You claim the Jesus was despised and rejected, didn’t he have thousands of followers? What about when he road into Jerusalem on the donkey and all those who honored and praised him? When the religious leaders where going to arrest the Jesus, they feared the crowds that followed the Jesus. Or while he was carrying the cross “there followed him a great multitude of the people, and of women who bewailed and lamented him.” This doesn’t sound like one who was “despised and rejected” when he had a large crowd of people that followed him to his execution.
because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
I recall an incident at the Temple (recounted by both Matthew and John) where the Jesus fashioned a whip and chased the money changers and animals from the Temple, pouring out their money, and overturning their tables. The Isaiah passage explicitly states “NO VIOLENCE” and we have how many acts of violence committed at a single moment? What about the fig tree that was out of season he cursed because it didn’t have fruit on it? Didn’t the Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords? The Jesus even admits he didn’t come for peace, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”, sounds a little violent to me. What about the Ten Minas parable where at the end the “king” (aka the Jesus) says, “as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and slaughter them in front of me!” ARE YOU KIDDING, the Jesus was found without violence?!?!?!
Looking at the next phrase, there wasn’t any deceit in his mouth; except wasn’t it the Jesus who said to turn the other cheek? Yet, when he was struck at the Temple he challenges why he was struck if what he said was truth (John 18:22-23). The Jesus also said those who gave up everything to follow him would receive a hundred fold back in their time (Mark 10:30)…did they? The Jesus also told his disciples that there where some who where with him that would NOT taste death AND see his return (Matt 16:28). The Jesus tells his disciples they would witness all these event described in Matt 24:34 Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 and would see the Jesus’ return. They did not! In Mark 4:11-12 the Jesus states he speaks in parables so those hearing won’t repent and be forgiven. Your “savior” wasn’t deceitful?!?!
Using the words from your own bible proves the Jesus CANNOT be the servant spoken about in Isaiah 53.
You are very wrong to be so stubborn.
Don’t you see that the text is about a person?
👇
“His face was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men,”
If it’s about a person then you DON’T want it to be about the Jesus because he failed in every instance! You still haven’t proved 53 is speaking of the Jesus; where as I have gone thru the first part of the chapter compared it to the NT and have found fault after fault AND gave you sources for verification. Now who is being stubborn?!?
If what I said isn’t truth, prove it! I gave you passages from your bible showing the Jesus couldn’t possibly be who Isa 53 is speaking of and you reject the evidence in favor of what…lies?!?!?!
Why is it so difficult for the christian to explain why they believe, what they believe?
You see clearly that it is a person, this particular servant.
5] But HE was wounded 👉for our transgressions, HE was bruised 👉for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was 👉UPON HIM; and with HIS stripes we are healed.
You were told it was a singular person; now prove it. I can prove the nation Israel was referred to the singular many times, so to say this passage specifically refers to a singular person (the Jesus) means nothing without evidence. To “believe”/“trust”/“have faith” that this passage is referring to the Jesus also means nothing, as anyone can “believe”/“trust”/“have faith” in anything they want but it doesn’t make it correct. Facts on the other hand are solid, concrete, and immovable; unless they can be proven wrong.
I just went over how the Jesus didn’t fit what was written as he was “violent”, he was “deceitful”, he was “desired”, and he wasn’t so hideous that people avoided him like a plague (how many thousands followed the Jesus?) and if he was so “ugly”, why is he pictured handsomely?
Now it’s your turn, what evidence do we have the Jesus fit the description in Isaiah 53!
You site vs5 and unfortunately it’s a mistranslation of the Hebrew and should read “But he was wounded FROM our transgressions, he was bruised FROM our iniquities.” (some Hebrew translations use “because”) This means Isaiah 53 is not talking about a man who died ‘for our sins,’ but rather it’s about a man who died ‘BECAUSE’ of or ‘AS A RESULT’ of our (the speaker’s) sins. Since the nations are the “our” in vs1, they also have to be the “our” of vs5…grammar has standard rules that must be followed no matter the language spoken.
If you disagree with this understanding, please provide who you think the “our” is and then back up your understanding.
Don’t forget to read Amos 3:7 and according to this prophet, everything you believe about a suffering, dying, rising from the dead, atonement for sin, and returning at a later date messiah would have been revealed by the prophets and there is NONE of this recorded by the prophets concerning the true Messiah.
Isaiah 53 is not a metaphor for the nation of Israel. It cannot be. It describes the servant as innocent.
“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
The Israelites were certainly not innocent or blameless. I don’t think I have to quote the abundance of verses that talk about Israel turning towards idols and doing evil. Even using just Isaiah itself: Isaiah 17 and 28-33.
@Danny Dabbs,
It describes the servant as innocent.
Go back a few post where I showed how “innocent” the Jesus was; he was violent, deceitful, was desired, and he wasn’t so hideous that people avoided him. For most of it I gave NT passages showing who the Jesus really was. So your the Jesus doesn’t fit Isaiah 53 either.
The general christian fails to understand this chapter and relies solely on what they are told it means, I did because it sounded like the Jesus. To understand this chapter one must know who is speaking where and that’s the big hiccup for the christian. I have yet to have anyone here tell me who is speaking in 52:13-15; 53:1-4; 53:5-9; 53:10-12. None have explained why the servant suddenly becomes the Jesus when in the previous chapters the servant is call Israel and Jacob.
Maybe you can identify who the “our” is in vs1.
Isaiah 1:16-17 KJV
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do EVIL;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
@Danny Dabbs,
I see you ran directly to accusations verses answering questions or proving your stance. Please tell me what my sin is and have need to cleanse myself for.
I stumbled across a verse (Amos 3:7) and have mentioned it a few time now and have been met with complete silence, it confirms the Jesus is NOT the true Messiah. According to this prophet, everything you believe about a suffering, dying, rising from the dead, atonement for sin, and returning at a later date messiah would have been revealed by the prophets. Please provide the passages that state this is what The Messiah is to do or be and I will provide you with the passages that refute this christian idea of who The Messiah will be and do.
@ DT
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had committed no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth.
In what way could this verse apply to Israel?
What Danny Dabbs told you about this is correct:
#948241
So!?
Oh, my…I was not accusing you.
Isaiah 1:16-17 is about Israel.
So, read it again.
Isaiah 1:16-17 KJV
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do EVIL;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Israel was not innocent.
@Danny Dobbs,
This is NOT difficult! I never said Israel was sinless and most certainly NOT blameless in their actions against G-d, this is the reason the Israelite’s are in exile!!! This is the reason G-d sent the prophets, to warn them of what was coming if they didn’t change and turn back to G-d. Are we reading from the same text?
I keep asking the same question and get zero responses from anyone; who is speaking where in 52:13 – 53:12? I even gave the answer and this is agreed upon from both those in Judaism and among christian scholars; yet, you all know more??!!??
52:13-15 – God describes the suffering and eventual restoration of the servant (Israel as established in previous chapters) and it shocks the nations.
53:1-3 – The nations restate what God said in 52:13-15.
53:4-9 – The nations give their explanation of why Israel suffered.
53:10-12 – God’s explains why Israel suffered and the reward when they turn back to HIM.
Since the nations are speaking in 53:1-9 the sin is from the nations being borne on the Jewish people (Israel and Jacob). So how does one get the Jesus out of this chapter is beyond me today! All one has to do is read, in the context, what is written. When one reads chapters 52,53,&54 together the picture that is painted is so much clearer than the mental gymnastic christianity has to perform to explain 53…which they really don’t. There is a suffering nation, a divine promise, and an ultimate redemption.
If I am wrong prove it!
@DT
You did not answer the question in verse 53:9
He was assigned 👉 a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in 👉 his death, 👈though he had committed no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth.
In what way could this verse apply to Israel?
You keep wanting this to be about the Jesus and it simply isn’t so. The passage you question (vs9) is yet another mistranslation of the Hebrew. The Hebrew for “in his death” is בְּמוֹתוֹ and is the singular form. What is written is בְּמוֹתָיו (verify on biblehub) and is in the plural “in his deaths”, so the passage should read: “And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his deaths.” So for this to be applied to the Jesus, he would have to return and die at least one more time for this to be true.
Again, prove this wrong. Go to the Hebrew and look this up for yourself. You don’t have to know how to read Hebrew; if you can match characters, you can verify what I am saying.
You keep asking how certain passages apply to Israel and I keep telling you how they do, but you keep rejecting the truth when it’s presented. When are you going to answer the question of who is speaking where? This answer, will answer all your questions because it identifies the pronouns used throughout the chapter.
This isn’t that difficult! It’s written in black and white! Set aside your brainwashing and read the words that are there, it will change your world!
A fairly literal reading of Isaiah 53:9 is:
“His grave was with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death, though he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.”
A modern Jewish translation, the 2023 JPS Tanakh, says something very similar:
“His grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death … though he had done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood.”
So this basic wording is not something invented by Christian translators. And personally, I find it difficult to see how this description naturally fits Israel as a nation.
Isaiah 53 became very important to the earliest Christians because they saw the prophecy fulfilled in Jesus’ suffering and death. Of course, the passage does not literally say, “The Messiah will be crucified beside criminals and then buried in a rich man’s tomb”.
But Scripture is rarely written that way. Prophecy is often given through imagery, patterns and parables that only become fully clear when the event takes place.
Some people seem to expect prophecy to spell everything out beforehand before they will accept it as fulfilled. But think about what that would mean. If God had plainly announced every detail of His plan in advance, He would also have been revealing that plan to those who opposed Him.
Why would He do that when even humans wouldn’t be so foolish?
Daniel 12:10 says:
“None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”
Jesus also said in Mark 4:11–12:
“To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables.”
And Paul explains that spiritual things are not always understood by those who look at them only in a natural way.
Most importantly, 1 Corinthians 2:8 tells us exactly why God’s plan was not obvious to everyone:
“None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
That is a remarkable statement. Paul’s point is that those who opposed Jesus did not understand what they were actually doing. Their lack of understanding became part of the fulfilment of God’s plan. Given that, if the scripture had plainly spelled it out, then perhaps the opposite thing would have happened.
So the pattern is quite clear: God reveals His plan, but not always in a way that the wicked can recognise. The prophecy may remain hidden for hundreds or even thousands of years. Then, when it is fulfilled, those with spiritual understanding can look back and recognise what God was doing all along.
And through that fulfilment, the righteous gain a little more understanding of where they are within God’s glorious plan.
The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is NOT described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: “Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!”
@ DT
If the expression “his death” was in the plural, the expression “his grave” would ALSO be in the plural.
But that’s not the case.
It is indeed one person and not several.9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth
And they made His grave with the wicked: Jesus died in the company of the wicked (Luke 23:32-33), and it was the intention of those supervising His execution to cast Him into a common grave with the wicked.
But with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth: Despite the intention of others to make His grave with the wicked, God allowed the Messiah to be with the rich at His death, buried in the tomb of the wealthy 👉Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50-56, Matthew 27:57-60).
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