John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,521 through 17,540 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #389076
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:41)

    Quote (jammin @ June 11 2014,19:37)
    Jesus is equal with God in essence according to paul and all powerful is part of God's nature.
    Blah, blah, blah……….


    jesus is equal with God in essence

    hahaha. good boy mike! now my question is, is God NOT ALL POWERFUL by nature/essence?! hahaha. you answered me all powerful is not part of his nature/essence! hahahaha

    the bible said God is all powerful!

    you do not understand what you are saying. you do not know  the meaning of nature/essence and no bible scholars will agree to you.
    Essence: In its theological usage, essence refers to “the intrinsic or indispensable, permanent, and inseparable qualities that characterize or identify the being of God.”

    do you understand that boy? hahahhaa. you are confused! hahahaha

    #389078
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:37)

    Quote (jammin @ June 10 2014,20:42)
    GOd is not HUMAN and one of the natures of God is all powerful.


    Hebrews 10
    12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

    Apparently, Jesus ISN'T God, because it is clear that Jesus (even in his exalted heavenly state) STILL isn't Almighty.  Instead, he waits for the one who IS Almighty to place his enemies at his feet – so he can then destroy them.


    you told me Jesus is equal with God in essence. hahaha
    are you changing your mind? hahahaha

    stop sniffing mosquito coil boy. it is not good for your brain! hahahah

    #389079
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2014,09:15)

    Quote (jammin @ June 08 2014,19:16)

    ERVheb 1.2
    He made the whole world through his Son.


    Who is the “HE” in that context, jammin?


    Who is the “HE”, jammin?  WHO made the whole world through His Son?


    the HE is the father but did you see the word “through”?? hahaha

    i accept the fact that God created all things and that is through his son! john 1.3

    heb 1.10 speaks about the SON as the creator!
    Hebrews 1:10
    New International Version (NIV)
    10 He also says,

    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    you still have 999990 yrs to find a version that says in heb 1.10 that the Lord is the father and not the son

    #389093
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 16 2014,08:40][/quote]

    Quote
    The very idea that you would do something like that eliminates any credibility you would have otherwise had.

    Mike,

    THE ONLY WAY TO PROVE WHO IS RIGHT, REGARDING THE FOUR TIMES “my God”  in Rev 3:12

    WHICH I AM SURE OF, THAT JESUS  REFERRED TO HIMSELF, IS THROUGH SCRIPTURES!

    THE FACT THAT HE EMPHASIZED IT FOUR TIMES MIKE,IS ALREADY ENOUGH FOR ME TO JUSTIFY MY CONCLUSIONS!

    NOW, GIVE ME YOUR JUSTIFIED REASONS

    WHY JESUS PROCLAIMED IT FOUR TIMES

    SINCE THAT REVELATION IS THROUGHOUT A REFERENCE TO GOD ALMIGHTY IN HIMSELF AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    YES MIKE!

    JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHED HIS OWN FATHERHOOD OF ALL

    JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHED HIS OWN GOD ALMIGHTY AND MANIFESTED IT ON EARTH FOR FORTY DAYS

    HIS ALMIGHTINESS IS UNIQUE, AND IT BELONGS TO HIM SINCE HE SHED HIS OWN BLOOD!

    ANSWER!

    DID GOD ALMIGHTY ENRICH HIMSELF THROUGH JESUS CHRIST PROCESSFROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD?

    YES OR NO?

    IF YOU DO NOT ANSWER IT IS CONFIRMED:

    THAT I AM RIGHT!

    READ THIS TO CONCLUDE!

    ALL WHAT MY FATHER HAS ARE MINE!

    SO THE TITLE OF GOD ALMIGHTY, IS ALSO JESUS'

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389094
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2014,22:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2014,19:12)
    Charles,

    Quote
    WHEN DID HE CALL HIM MY GOD?

    1) I am sure you know that answer which leads me to the conclusion you do not like what the passage and so have sought a way to justify that feeling.  The Passages are John 8:54 and John 20:17.


    Don't forget that Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times in Rev 3:12 – AFTER he had already been exalted to the highest position, and given the name above all names.


    Charles,

    Mike has a point. Thank you Mike.

    #389096
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,17:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2014,05:35)

    Quote (jammin @ June 12 2014,07:37)
    it is not irrelevant. i am talking about the human nature here and being not all powerful is part of HUMAN's nature.
    the truth is you cant answer my question that is why.

    Jesus is equal with God in essence according to paul and all powerful is part of God's nature.

    so it is easy to explain this IF YOU WILL answer my question. is the president all powerful? yes or no?are you all powerful? yes or no?

    if both answers are NO, then you are equal in essence. believe it or not


    Jammin,

    When you set “all powerful” up as a characteristic to mark one essential nature different than another then any difference in power becomes a characteristic to mark one essential nature from another.  Since the president has more power than I do that follows his essential nature is different than mine.

    If you are attempting to male the cause of unlimited power verses limed power then even angels that are vastly more powerful than me have the same essential nature as I do.

    So you are saying that Jesus because he was all powerful emptied himself of all that power and obtained limited power.  So according to that foolishness God took on limited power and so no longer had the essential nature of God.  

    You are attempting to use reason to explain a doctrine that is illogical and you will fall flat when you attempt to do that.  In order for someone to accept your “reasoning” they have to deny true reason.

    Instead you need to believe Jesus existed in the nature of God in that he wall like God in true holiness and righteousness and that led him not seek to loot God's power but instead to humble himself and become God's servant.  That is the mind that Jesus continually had in him and the mind we believers are to seek to have in us.

    It is a simple instruction that can be hard to do.  Do not make it hard to understand.


    no. why? because the president is STILL NOT ALL POWERFUL unless he is God by nature. a human nature is not ALL POWERFUL. you cant say ALL POWERFUL if you have limitations and that is human nature.

    the bible tells us that jesus took the HUMAN form. it is clear that before he took the human nature, he was in the form of God and was EQUAL with God . i am not saying this just because i want to but because this is the doctrine of the bible. paul said Christ is God just like his father. phil 2.6

    thomas said Jesus is HIS LORD AND GOD john 20.28

    the jews understood that Christ claimed to be God and equal with God and that is the reason why they want to kill him!
    john 5.18
    New International Version
    For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him “my Father”, and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

    making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned (d).


    Jammin,

    Gill is using nature to define nature which makes me thing he does not know what it means. He is giving commentary to make his point of view more clear and that does not make it more clear. Let is stick to your point of view as I already know Gill is by point of view a trinitarian.

    You are clearly having trouble communicating your idea but it seems to me that you are trying to make the point that “power” is not the essential nature you are speaking of but unlimited power vs limited power is a characteristic of the essence you are talking about. So you claim Jesus was all powerful on earth even though he himself said after his resurrection and before his ascension that he was appointed by God as Lord of all things in heaven and on earth. In that statement he was clearly not the one that had the power to appoint him to that position nor is their any evidence he was given that power to appoint another to that position. Since he did not have that power and God did that means his power is limited and God's is not.

    You will not find a flaw in my claim that a characteristic of the nature of God Jesus existed in what to be righteous as Yahweh is as Jesus has never sinned even as Jehovah has never sinned.

    #389103
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 16 2014,08:40][/quote]

    Quote
    HE is the “my God” he was talking about.

    Mike,

    YES!

    CONTRADICT ME WITH ONE VERSE FROM SCRIPTURE!

    READ THIS ONE NOW:

    Philippians 2:6Who being in the

    FORM OF GOD  

    thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    SINCE HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD!

    7But emptied himself, taking the

    FORM OF A SERVANT…………..

    SO   AS MUCH AS HE WAS A SERVANT,HE WAS, AND  IS ALSO GOD  

    SINCE BOTH CASES USE THE TERM FORM OF

    OK MIKE?

    WHICH ONE WOULD YOU PREFER, THAT HE WAS A SERVANT, AND HE WAS AND IS ALSO GOD. OR

    WAS NOT A SERVANT AND WAS NOT, AND IS NOT GOD

    BUT IF YOU OPT THE LATTER, BOTH NOT A SERVANT, AND NOT GOD

    YOU STILL HAVE TO ESTABLISH WHAT JESUS WAS  

    11 And that every tongue should confess that the

    LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER

    SO ALL WHAT THE FATHER OWNS IS ALSO JESUS'

    THEREFORE:

    ALMIGHTY GOD JESUS CHRIST

    HIS OWN

    THROUGH HIS OWN BLOOD!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389129
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,05:55)
    is God NOT ALL POWERFUL by nature/essence?


    Yes jammin,

    GOD is indeed all powerful.

    Unfortunately for your silly little doctrine, JESUS is clearly NOT all powerful – and therefore NOT “God”. :)

    #389130
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,06:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2014,09:15)

    Quote (jammin @ June 08 2014,19:16)

    ERVheb 1.2
    He made the whole world through his Son.


    Who is the “HE” in that context, jammin?


    Who is the “HE”, jammin?  WHO made the whole world through His Son?


    the HE is the father but did you see the word “through”??


    Of course I saw the word “through”.  :)

    Remember what your father Tertullian taught you:  He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.

    So in the scripture YOU quoted, the “HE” is the Father, right?  Then THAT is the one who “made the world”, right?

    The fact that the Father made the world THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made the world.

    Just like the fact the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made Eve.

    Oh, and the fact that the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't make Adam Eve's “creator”, or even “co-creator”.

    Likewise, the fact that the Father made the world THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the world's “creator” or even “co-creator”.

    Are you finally ready to fess up to Acts 4 yet?  Because since YOUR OWN scriptures are proving MY point, things are only going to get worse for you from here on out. :)

    #389131
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 16 2014,12:53)
    Mike,

    THE ONLY WAY TO PROVE WHO IS RIGHT, REGARDING THE FOUR TIMES “my God”  in Rev 3:12

    WHICH I AM SURE OF, THAT JESUS  REFERRED TO HIMSELF, IS THROUGH SCRIPTURES!


    Righto, Charlie.  :)

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, “Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Will you now tell me that Jesus was calling HIMSELF “my God” in that verse as well?

    Charles, the SCRIPTURES clearly and undeniably teach that Jesus is the Son, Servant, Messiah, Lamb, Prophet, Priest, and Word OF God……….. and therefore NOT God Himself.

    So your idea that Jesus referred to someone he called “my God” four times – just to prove to us that HE was the “my God” he was referring to – is complete and utter NONSENSE.

    But just in case you missed it…………

    Luke 8:28
    When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”

    Charles, is Jesus “The Most High God”? Or is he the SON OF “The Most High God”? Which one does the SCRIPTURE say?

    #389132
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 16 2014,14:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,08:40)
    HE is the “my God” he was talking about.

    Mike,

    YES!

    CONTRADICT ME WITH ONE VERSE FROM SCRIPTURE!


    How about two scriptures? See previous post. :)

    #389142
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,06:27)

    Quote (carmel @ June 16 2014,14:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,08:40)
    HE is the “my God” he was talking about.

    Mike,

    YES!

    CONTRADICT ME WITH ONE VERSE FROM SCRIPTURE!


    How about two scriptures?  See previous post.  :)


    Mike,

    I already gave him passages as well.

    #389151
    Wakeup
    Participant

    CAESAR WAS VERY POWERFUL IN HIS EMPIRE.
    HIS WORD OF COMMMAND IS AS POWERFUL AS
    HE HIM SELF. BUT CAESARS WORD, IS IN SUBJECTION TO CAESAR. IT CAN NOT BE AHEAD OF CAESAR.
    CAN YOU UNDERSTAND.

    wakeup.

    #389172
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 17 2014,10:45)
    CAESAR WAS VERY POWERFUL IN HIS EMPIRE.
    HIS WORD OF COMMMAND IS AS POWERFUL AS
    HE HIM SELF. BUT CAESARS WORD, IS IN SUBJECTION TO CAESAR. IT CAN NOT BE AHEAD OF CAESAR.
    CAN YOU UNDERSTAND.

    wakeup.


    WAKEUP

    YOU DO NOT MAKE SENS ;you try to stick to what scriptures are not supporting ;

    this is only your mind gymnastics ;

    if Caesar ad so much power why is it that he was so many times challenged in war,??? because they could not care of what he said .???

    all of your efforts are trying to refuse to accept that CHRIST WAS AND IS “THE WORD”OF GOD IN OTHER WORDS THE SPOKESPERSON TO ALL CREATION ,

    SO MANY SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT OR SUPPORT THIS ,

    THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT NEED ENLIGHTENING BUT YOU DO WAKEUP

    #389180
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,11:12)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,06:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2014,09:15)

    Quote (jammin @ June 08 2014,19:16)

    ERVheb 1.2
    He made the whole world through his Son.


    Who is the “HE” in that context, jammin?


    Who is the “HE”, jammin?  WHO made the whole world through His Son?


    the HE is the father but did you see the word “through”??


    Of course I saw the word “through”.  :)

    Remember what your father Tertullian taught you:  He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.

    So in the scripture YOU quoted, the “HE” is the Father, right?  Then THAT is the one who “made the world”, right?

    The fact that the Father made the world THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made the world.

    Just like the fact the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made Eve.

    Oh, and the fact that the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't make Adam Eve's “creator”, or even “co-creator”.

    Likewise, the fact that the Father made the world THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the world's “creator” or even “co-creator”.

    Are you finally ready to fess up to Acts 4 yet?  Because since YOUR OWN scriptures are proving MY point, things are only going to get worse for you from here on out. :)


    the importance of the word “through” is, without him nothing was made that has been made.

    John 1:3
    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    it is true that God created all things BUT through HIS SON and without him nothing was made that has been made.

    do you understand that? it is not the same as your example that God created me through my parents. that is not in the bible hahahaha. where did you get that? hahahah

    your father satan teaches you a lot of fantasies hahahaha.

    by the way, you still have 999899 yrs to find a version that says that the LORD in heb 1.10 is the father and not the SON who created the heavens and the earth

    #389182
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,11:06)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,05:55)
    is God NOT ALL POWERFUL by nature/essence?


    Yes jammin,

    GOD is indeed all powerful.

    Unfortunately for your silly little doctrine, JESUS is clearly NOT all powerful – and therefore NOT “God”.  :)


    and you told me that jesus is equal with God in essence. hahahah.
    therefore, if God is the father is all powerful by essence, the son is also all powerful.

    #389183
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2014,06:26)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,17:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2014,05:35)

    Quote (jammin @ June 12 2014,07:37)
    it is not irrelevant. i am talking about the human nature here and being not all powerful is part of HUMAN's nature.
    the truth is you cant answer my question that is why.

    Jesus is equal with God in essence according to paul and all powerful is part of God's nature.

    so it is easy to explain this IF YOU WILL answer my question. is the president all powerful? yes or no?are you all powerful? yes or no?

    if both answers are NO, then you are equal in essence. believe it or not


    Jammin,

    When you set “all powerful” up as a characteristic to mark one essential nature different than another then any difference in power becomes a characteristic to mark one essential nature from another.  Since the president has more power than I do that follows his essential nature is different than mine.

    If you are attempting to male the cause of unlimited power verses limed power then even angels that are vastly more powerful than me have the same essential nature as I do.

    So you are saying that Jesus because he was all powerful emptied himself of all that power and obtained limited power.  So according to that foolishness God took on limited power and so no longer had the essential nature of God.  

    You are attempting to use reason to explain a doctrine that is illogical and you will fall flat when you attempt to do that.  In order for someone to accept your “reasoning” they have to deny true reason.

    Instead you need to believe Jesus existed in the nature of God in that he wall like God in true holiness and righteousness and that led him not seek to loot God's power but instead to humble himself and become God's servant.  That is the mind that Jesus continually had in him and the mind we believers are to seek to have in us.

    It is a simple instruction that can be hard to do.  Do not make it hard to understand.


    no. why? because the president is STILL NOT ALL POWERFUL unless he is God by nature. a human nature is not ALL POWERFUL. you cant say ALL POWERFUL if you have limitations and that is human nature.

    the bible tells us that jesus took the HUMAN form. it is clear that before he took the human nature, he was in the form of God and was EQUAL with God . i am not saying this just because i want to but because this is the doctrine of the bible. paul said Christ is God just like his father. phil 2.6

    thomas said Jesus is HIS LORD AND GOD john 20.28

    the jews understood that Christ claimed to be God and equal with God and that is the reason why they want to kill him!
    john 5.18
    New International Version
    For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him “my Father”, and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

    making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned (d).


    Jammin,

    Gill is using nature to define nature which makes me thing he does not know what it means.  He is giving commentary to make his point of view more clear and that does not make it more clear.  Let is stick to your point of view as I already know Gill is by point of view a trinitarian.

    You are clearly having trouble communicating your idea but it seems to me that you are trying to make the point that “power” is not the essential nature you are speaking of but unlimited power vs limited power is a characteristic of the essence you are talking about. So you claim Jesus was all powerful on earth even though he himself said after his resurrection and before his ascension that he was appointed by God as Lord of all things in heaven and on earth.  In that statement he was clearly not the one that had the power to appoint him to that position nor is their any evidence he was given that power to appoint another to that position.  Since he did not have that power and God did that means his power is limited and God's is not.

    You will not find a flaw in my claim that a characteristic of the nature of God Jesus existed in what to be righteous as Yahweh is as Jesus has never sinned even as Jehovah has never sinned.


    let us make this simple. i do not want things to be complicated.

    is all powerful part of God's essence/nature?

    yes or no?

    is MAN all pwoerful by nature/essence? yes or no?

    is the president all powerful by nature/ essence? yes or no?

    are you all powerful by nature/ essence? yes or no?

    i will give you 1m yrs to answer my questions

    #389184
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    I already pointed out Jesus is not all powerful as he was the one that was appointed not the one the one that did the appointing.  Since Jesus is not all powerful then it is clear that is not the essence of God or part of the essence he exists in.

    #389185
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ June 17 2014,21:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,11:06)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,05:55)
    is God NOT ALL POWERFUL by nature/essence?


    Yes jammin,

    GOD is indeed all powerful.

    Unfortunately for your silly little doctrine, JESUS is clearly NOT all powerful – and therefore NOT “God”.  :)


    and you told me that jesus is equal with God in essence. hahahah.
    therefore, if God is the father is all powerful by essence, the son is also all powerful.


    Jammin,

    If you are correct then clearly he must not be including all powerful in the essence of God he sees Jesus as being equal to God in. It is easy to understand. When you stumble on the easy stuff how can you expect to understand the harder stuff?

    #389186
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ June 17 2014,21:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2014,11:12)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2014,06:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2014,10:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2014,09:15)

    Quote (jammin @ June 08 2014,19:16)

    ERVheb 1.2
    He made the whole world through his Son.


    Who is the “HE” in that context, jammin?


    Who is the “HE”, jammin?  WHO made the whole world through His Son?


    the HE is the father but did you see the word “through”??


    Of course I saw the word “through”.  :)

    Remember what your father Tertullian taught you:  He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.

    So in the scripture YOU quoted, the “HE” is the Father, right?  Then THAT is the one who “made the world”, right?

    The fact that the Father made the world THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made the world.

    Just like the fact the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't change the fact that it was indeed THE FATHER who made Eve.

    Oh, and the fact that the Father made Eve THROUGH Adam doesn't make Adam Eve's “creator”, or even “co-creator”.

    Likewise, the fact that the Father made the world THROUGH Jesus doesn't make Jesus the world's “creator” or even “co-creator”.

    Are you finally ready to fess up to Acts 4 yet?  Because since YOUR OWN scriptures are proving MY point, things are only going to get worse for you from here on out. :)


    the importance of the word “through” is, without him nothing was made that has been made.

    John 1:3
    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    it is true that God created all things BUT through HIS SON and without him nothing was made that has been made.

    do you understand that? it is not the same as your example that God created me through my parents. that is not in the bible hahahaha. where did you get that? hahahah

    your father satan teaches you a lot of fantasies hahahaha.

    by the way, you still have 999899 yrs to find a version that says that the LORD in heb 1.10 is the father and not the SON who created the heavens and the earth


    Jammin,

    You do realize that despite all the words you wrote you did not say anything relevant to the argument Mike made. I disagree with his doctrine but I do believe God made the world through his own word.

    You have a case with that verse that I heave heard you make before but not that the one who made all things and the one who they were made through are the same person.

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