John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,501 through 17,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #388830
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 13 2014,13:29)
    [quote=mikeboll64,June 02 2014,13:08][/quote]

    Quote
    God alone gave me life, Charles.  He chose to do that THROUGH my parents.

    Mike,

    PERFECT!

    SO NOT GOD ALONE!


    Yes God ALONE, Charles.

    He who creates is ONE, and he through whom the thing is created is ANOTHER. – Tertullian

    The one THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is NOT the God who, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created that thing.

    #388898
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,June 14 2014,08:24][/quote]

    Quote
    do you still see a tool working without someone handling it

    YOUR WISDOM SHINES ALL OVER THE CONTINENTS!

    IN THE SAME SENSE

    DO YOU SEE A CARPENTER WORKING WITHOUT HANDLING HIS TOOL IN ORDER TO DO HIS WORK!

    ARE YOU SO BLIND THAT IN THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN

    BOTH THE CARPENTER AND THE TOOL THAT ARE DOING ONE PARTICULAR JOB, ARE NOT EQUAL

    NO TOOL NO WORK DONE

    THE CARPENTER IS USELESS, AND NON EXISTENT NEVER MIND A CARPENTER, NOT UNLESS HE DEMONSTRATES HIS WORK ONLY BY THE TOOL

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #388904
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 14 2014,11:49][/quote]

    Quote
    There is only ONE Almighty God – and no man has ever seen His face.

    Mike,

    IN SIMPLE ENGLISH IT IS SCRIPTURALLY CLEAR:

    And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained

    THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS SO THE TITLE OF ALMIGHTY GOD BELONG ALSO TO JESUS CHRIST AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER IS HANDICAPPED REGARDING HIS MANIFESTATION TO HIS CREATURES!

    HE IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ASSERT, CONFIRM, AND DEMONSTRATE HIS ALMIGHTINESS IN THE TRUTH!

    HE IS UNKNOWN, MYSTERIOUS, UNFATHOMABLE SPIRIT BEING! THAT 'S AS FAR AS HE COULD DO WITHOUT ANY PROOF THAT HE IS DOING IT!

    THE ANTICHRIST WHEN HE COMES HE WOULD:

    MANIFEST HIMSELF WITH GREATER WORK THAN JESUS HIMSELF DID!

    GOD ALMIGHTY WOULD NOT BE IN A POSITION TO ACT AT ALL UNLESS HE HIMSELF ON EARTH FACE THE ANTICHRIST!

    IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD ALMIGHTY TO DO THIS SINCE HE WOULD DESTROY ALL THE ENTIRE CREATURES, FOR THE SAKE OF HIS SUPERIORITY!

    THEREFORE THERE'S ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY GOD VISIBLE AND ALSO HUMAN AND THAT IS

    JESUS CHRIST IN THE POWER OF THE FATHER FROM WITHIN!

    AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST THE ONE WHO WOULD BE SENT ON THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT TO ERADICATE SATAN ONCE AND FOR ALL!

    AND THAT WOULD BE THE TIME WHEN GOD ALMIGHTY PRINCIPLE WISE WOULD BE IN THE POSITION TO OWN

    JESUS CHRIST BODY AS HIS GENUINE BODY!

    THAT WOULD BE A TIME!

    THRILLIONS UPON THRILLIONS OF YEARS TO COME BUT FOR GOD IN JESUS CHRIST AS HE IS,

    IS LIKE A MERE SECOND!

    KEEP ON READING! AND TWIST TO ENJOY!

    and by him he made the universe.

    3For he is The Brilliance of his OWN GOD'S glory,

    The Image of his OWN GOD'S Being,

    and upholds all* things by the power of his OWN GOD'S word;

    and he in his OWN GOD'S Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and

    HE

    JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF AS HIS RIGHT, PROVEN, AND DECLARED:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD!

    sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    ONLY VISIBLE TO HIM!

    THEREFORE ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY ON THE THRONE IS IN THE TRUTH DECLARED  IN FRONT OF ALL CREATURES!

    AND AS SOON AS HE IS ACCEPTED BY ALL THE ENTIRE CREATURES THE FATHER WOULD BE

    ALL IN ALL

    BUT

    IN JESUS CHRIST

    BY JESUS CHRIST

    FOR JESUS CHRIST

    AND THE FATHER IS ,AND WOULD BE WELL PLEASED IN HIM!

    NOW ANSWER MIKE!

    WHO WOULD BE VISIBLE IN THE TRUTH ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY OF THE

    LORD

    SINCE THERE'S ONLY ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #388905
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 14 2014,11:52][/quote]

    Quote
    He who creates is ONE, and he through whom the thing is created is ANOTHER. – Tertullian

    Mike,

    GOD WHO CREATES IS ONE

    AND THE WORD THROUGH WHOM LUCIFER IS CREATED IS ANOTHER!   TERTULLIAN

    THEREFORE GOD WAS NOT ALONE WHEN THE VERY FIRST CREATURE WAS CREATED!

    BUT SINCE THE WORD WAS ALSO GOD!

    GOD WAS ALONE

    GOD OUT OF GOD

    LIGHT OUT OF LIGHT

    TRUE GOD OUT OF TRUE GOD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #388935
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ June 12 2014,07:37)
    it is not irrelevant. i am talking about the human nature here and being not all powerful is part of HUMAN's nature.
    the truth is you cant answer my question that is why.

    Jesus is equal with God in essence according to paul and all powerful is part of God's nature.

    so it is easy to explain this IF YOU WILL answer my question. is the president all powerful? yes or no?are you all powerful? yes or no?

    if both answers are NO, then you are equal in essence. believe it or not


    Jammin,

    When you set “all powerful” up as a characteristic to mark one essential nature different than another then any difference in power becomes a characteristic to mark one essential nature from another. Since the president has more power than I do that follows his essential nature is different than mine.

    If you are attempting to male the cause of unlimited power verses limed power then even angels that are vastly more powerful than me have the same essential nature as I do.

    So you are saying that Jesus because he was all powerful emptied himself of all that power and obtained limited power. So according to that foolishness God took on limited power and so no longer had the essential nature of God.

    You are attempting to use reason to explain a doctrine that is illogical and you will fall flat when you attempt to do that. In order for someone to accept your “reasoning” they have to deny true reason.

    Instead you need to believe Jesus existed in the nature of God in that he wall like God in true holiness and righteousness and that led him not seek to loot God's power but instead to humble himself and become God's servant. That is the mind that Jesus continually had in him and the mind we believers are to seek to have in us.

    It is a simple instruction that can be hard to do. Do not make it hard to understand.

    #388936
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ June 12 2014,12:18)
    [quote=kerwin,June 11 2014,17:37][/quote]

    Quote
     Jesus is not all powerful for God is more powerful than him as he is the one that appointed Jesus King of all things in heaven and on earth.              

    Kerwin,

    with every respect THE ABOVE ARE LIES!

    YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

    THERE'S NO SPIRIT MORE POWERFUL THAN JESUS CHRIST THE FIRST AND FOREMOST OF ALL THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    IF NOT SO,

    GOD ALMIGHTY WOULD HAVE FAILED,IN BECOMING

    GOD OF ALL FLESHIN THE TRUTH! MANIFESTED THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSES!

    THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A NAME WHICH WAS PRONOUNCED ON EARTH AND MANIFESTED GREATER WORK THROUGH IT, THAN JESUS CHRIST MANIFESTED WITH HIS,

    COMMENCED BY HIMSELF AND MAINTAINED IT

    FOR FORTY DAYS ,AFTER HE INTEGRATED WITH HIS SOUL, FORMERLY THE HOLY SPIRIT

    WHEN GOD ON EARTH WAS VISIBLE IN ONE INSTANT 500 TIMES IN DIFFERENT PLACES!

    NOW READ:

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO MEin heaven and in earth.

    NOW  KERWIN, WHAT DOES THE ABOVE LACK TO CONVINCE YOU THAT JESUS CHRIST OWNS ALL,

    I REPEAT: ALL POWER!

    DO YOU THINK THAT HE STILL NEED MORE THAN ALL!

    IF SO,

    WHAT IS MORE THAN ALL

    SCRIPTURES PLEASE I DON’T WANT YOUR OPINION

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    1) We know God is more powerful than Jesus because Jesus called him my God.
    2) We know that Jesus considered him equal to believers because he calls those that believe brothers. God has never done that.
    3) We know God is more powerful that Jesus because God is the one that appointed Jesus Lord over all things in heaven and in earth.

    That in itself is more than enough to convince anyone with an open heart. Convincing a human is often more difficult but all things are possible with God.

    #388943
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,June 15 2014,05:41][/quote]

    Quote
    1) We know God is more powerful than Jesus because Jesus called him my God.

    I WANT SCRIPTURES PLEASE!

    ANSWER:

    WHEN DID HE CALL HIM MY GOD?

    2) We know that Jesus considered him equal to believers because he calls those that believe brothers.  God has never done that.

    WHEN DID JESUS CALL BELIEVERS BROTHERS?

    3) We know God is more powerful that Jesus because God is the one that appointed Jesus Lord over all things in heaven and in earth.

    WHY, AND WHEN DID HE APPOINT HIM HEIR OVER ALL THINGS!

    INCLUDING THE TITLE OF THE ONLY VISIBLE GOD ALMIGHTY!

    SINCE HE HIMSELF COULD IN NO WAY ACHIEVES MANIFESTATION UNLESS DESTROYS ALL CREATURES!

    NOW DO NOT JUST SAY JESUS!

    BUT JESUS CHRIST!

    CHRIST STANDS FOR WHAT JESUS BECAME AFTER HE FULFILLED ALL GOD'S WORK ON EARTH, AND THROUGH IT HE BECAME:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    LAST QUESTION!


    DID ALMIGHTY GOD ENRICHED HIMSELF OR NOT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST PROCESS?

    WHICH IS THE WORD WHICH LEFT THE FATHER'S MOUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    Kerwin,

    #388968
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    WHEN DID HE CALL HIM MY GOD?

    1) I am sure you know that answer which leads me to the conclusion you do not like what the passage and so have sought a way to justify that feeling. The Passages are John 8:54 and John 20:17.

    #388975
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    WHEN DID JESUS CALL BELIEVERS BROTHERS?

    Once again I believe you know the passages that apply but I will give them to you anyways. John 20:17 and Hebrews 2:11.

    #388976
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    3)

    Quote
    WHY, AND WHEN DID HE APPOINT HIM HEIR OVER ALL THINGS!

    Because he has mercy on who he has mercy and compassion on who he has compassion.

    Philippians 2:8-11

    New International Version (NIV)

    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    and

    Matthew 28:18
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    #388994
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 14 2014,00:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2014,11:49)
    There is only ONE Almighty God – and no man has ever seen His face.


    Mike,

    IN SIMPLE ENGLISH IT IS SCRIPTURALLY CLEAR:

    And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained

    THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS SO THE TITLE OF ALMIGHTY GOD BELONG ALSO TO JESUS CHRIST………


    You take the fact that God Almighty spoke to us THROUGH His Son, and twist it into meaning the Son IS the Almighty God who spoke THROUGH him.

    That kind of reasoning is neither scriptural, nor logical.

    #388995
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 14 2014,00:42)
    JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF AS HIS RIGHT, PROVEN, AND DECLARED:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD!

    sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


    If Jesus is “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” – then whose right hand does Jesus sit at? Who is the one you called “The Majesty On High”?

    When Solomon was king, he had a throne brought in and set at the right hand of his own throne. Solomon's mother was given the honor of sitting at the right hand of the King of Israel. (1 Kings 2:19)

    Would you assume that Solomon's mother actually WAS Solomon himself – just because she was exalted to sit at Solomon's right hand?

    If not, then why would your mind lead you to such a crazy conclusion in the case of God, and the servant who sits at His right hand? ???

    #388996
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2014,12:35)
    Jammin,

    When you set “all powerful” up as a characteristic to mark one essential nature different than another then any difference in power becomes a characteristic to mark one essential nature from another.  Since the president has more power than I do that follows his essential nature is different than mine.

    You are attempting to use reason to explain a doctrine that is illogical and you will fall flat when you attempt to do that.  In order for someone to accept your “reasoning” they have to deny true reason.


    Well said, Kerwin.

    I wonder: Will jammin directly address that point? Or will he just attempt to run circles AROUND it – like usual?

    #388997
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2014,19:12)
    Charles,

    Quote
    WHEN DID HE CALL HIM MY GOD?

    1) I am sure you know that answer which leads me to the conclusion you do not like what the passage and so have sought a way to justify that feeling.  The Passages are John 8:54 and John 20:17.


    Don't forget that Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times in Rev 3:12 – AFTER he had already been exalted to the highest position, and given the name above all names.

    #389016
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ June 14 2014,11:58)
    [quote=terraricca,June 14 2014,08:24][/quote]

    Quote
    do you still see a tool working without someone handling it

    YOUR WISDOM SHINES ALL OVER THE CONTINENTS!

    IN THE SAME SENSE

    DO YOU SEE A CARPENTER WORKING WITHOUT HANDLING HIS TOOL IN ORDER TO DO HIS WORK!

    ARE YOU SO BLIND THAT IN THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN

    BOTH THE CARPENTER AND THE TOOL THAT ARE DOING ONE PARTICULAR JOB, ARE NOT EQUAL

    NO TOOL NO WORK DONE

    THE CARPENTER IS USELESS, AND NON EXISTENT NEVER MIND A CARPENTER, NOT UNLESS HE DEMONSTRATES HIS WORK ONLY BY THE TOOL

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CHARLES

    He who creates is ONE, and he through whom the thing is created is ANOTHER. –

    GOT IT ???

    #389018
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 16 2014,03:09][/quote]

    Quote
    Don't forget that Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times in Rev 3:12 –

    Mike,

    AS FAR AS I KNOW, I ALREADY DISCUSSED IT, AND I SAID THAT THOSE PARTICULAR FOUR MY GOD SPOKEN BY JESUS CHRIST WAS A REFERENCE TO HIMSELF.

    HE SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT

    HE ESTABLISHED HIS OWN KIND OF GOD OF BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT THROUGH HIS DEATH

    HE ESTABLISHED ALSO HIS OWN KIND OF FATHERHOOD OF BOTH SONS AND DAUGHTERS THROUGH HIS DEATH!

    ALMIGHTY GOD IS NOT MENTIONED AS SUCH SINCE HE ONLY BEGOTTEN HIS ONLY SON!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389019
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 16 2014,03:00][/quote]

    Quote
    sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
    If Jesus is “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” – then whose right hand does Jesus sit at?  Who is the one you called “The Majesty On High”?

    Mike,

    HOW ON EARTH AN INVISIBLE BEING COULD PROVE THAT HE EXIST AS A UNIQUE ALMIGHTY BEING, WHEN THERE IS ALSO A PROOF THAT OTHER INVISIBLE GODS EXIST

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE ONLY THROUGH GOD FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ONLY  HE MANIFESTED HIS OWN KIND OF GOD'S WORK ON EARTH AS A HUMAN VISIBLE BEING, WHILE ALMIGHTY GOD COULD NEVER DO AND WILL NEVER DO UNLESS IN JESUS CHRIST ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD

    AND THERE'S ONLY ONE LORD:

    JESUS CHRIST!

    ALSO:

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MOST HIGH, IS ONLY TO PROVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD'S ALMIGHTY'S GENUINE PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE OTHERWISE HE WOULD AND COULD NEVER BE CONSIDERED  AT ALL ALMIGHTY BY HIS CONTENDERS,

    THE FACT THAT HE SENT HIS SON,

    AND

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS EXALTED BY THE FATHER IN THE HIGHEST STATE!

    ANSWER THIS MIKE!

    WHICH I DOUBT!

    DID GOD ALMIGHTY ENRICH HIMSELF WITH JESUS CHRIST PROCESS!

    YES OR NO?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389022
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 15 2014,14:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,03:09)
    Don't forget that Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times in Rev 3:12 –

    Mike,

    AS FAR AS I KNOW, I ALREADY DISCUSSED IT, AND I SAID THAT THOSE PARTICULAR FOUR MY GOD SPOKEN BY JESUS CHRIST WAS A REFERENCE TO HIMSELF.

    HE SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT

    HE ESTABLISHED HIS OWN KIND OF GOD OF BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT THROUGH HIS DEATH


    Once again, that is pure, unscriptural nonsense, Charles.

    You can't seriously take the fact that a person refers to HIS OWN GOD four times – and twist that into a declaration that HE is the “my God” he was talking about.

    The very idea that you would do something like that eliminates any credibility you would have otherwise had.

    #389023
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 15 2014,15:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,03:00)
    If Jesus is “THE ONLY TRUE GOD” – then whose right hand does Jesus sit at?  Who is the one you called “The Majesty On High”?


    Mike,

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MOST HIGH, IS ONLY TO PROVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD'S ALMIGHTY'S GENUINE PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE…………


    So Jesus sits at the right hand of God to prove that Jesus IS God? ???

    Come on, man.

    #389074
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2014,05:35)

    Quote (jammin @ June 12 2014,07:37)
    it is not irrelevant. i am talking about the human nature here and being not all powerful is part of HUMAN's nature.
    the truth is you cant answer my question that is why.

    Jesus is equal with God in essence according to paul and all powerful is part of God's nature.

    so it is easy to explain this IF YOU WILL answer my question. is the president all powerful? yes or no?are you all powerful? yes or no?

    if both answers are NO, then you are equal in essence. believe it or not


    Jammin,

    When you set “all powerful” up as a characteristic to mark one essential nature different than another then any difference in power becomes a characteristic to mark one essential nature from another.  Since the president has more power than I do that follows his essential nature is different than mine.

    If you are attempting to male the cause of unlimited power verses limed power then even angels that are vastly more powerful than me have the same essential nature as I do.

    So you are saying that Jesus because he was all powerful emptied himself of all that power and obtained limited power.  So according to that foolishness God took on limited power and so no longer had the essential nature of God.  

    You are attempting to use reason to explain a doctrine that is illogical and you will fall flat when you attempt to do that.  In order for someone to accept your “reasoning” they have to deny true reason.

    Instead you need to believe Jesus existed in the nature of God in that he wall like God in true holiness and righteousness and that led him not seek to loot God's power but instead to humble himself and become God's servant.  That is the mind that Jesus continually had in him and the mind we believers are to seek to have in us.

    It is a simple instruction that can be hard to do.  Do not make it hard to understand.


    no. why? because the president is STILL NOT ALL POWERFUL unless he is God by nature. a human nature is not ALL POWERFUL. you cant say ALL POWERFUL if you have limitations and that is human nature.

    the bible tells us that jesus took the HUMAN form. it is clear that before he took the human nature, he was in the form of God and was EQUAL with God . i am not saying this just because i want to but because this is the doctrine of the bible. paul said Christ is God just like his father. phil 2.6

    thomas said Jesus is HIS LORD AND GOD john 20.28

    the jews understood that Christ claimed to be God and equal with God and that is the reason why they want to kill him!
    john 5.18
    New International Version
    For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him “my Father”, and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

    making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned (d).

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