John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,941 through 16,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #380384
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    THE FACT AND THE TRUTH IS:

    THAT THE SON IS THE LIFE OF MAN, NOT THE FATHER

    THE FATHER DOESN'T COUNT!

    NO SON NO FATHER FOR HUMANS!

    SO THE ONLY FATHER FOR US IS JESUS!

    SO YOU IGNORING THE KING BUT MAKE THE AMBASSADOR A KING NOW ??? HOW IS THAT ???

    #380385
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    YOU PRAY TO THE FATHER HE WON'T HEAR YOU!

    YOU PRAY TO THE SON, THE FATHER WILL HEAR YOU!

    YOU ADORE THE FATHER HE IGNORES YOU!

    YOU ADORE THE SON THE FATHER RECEIVES IT

    WHEN I PRAY I PRAY THROUGH THE SON TO REACH THE FATHER MY FATHER AND THE SON FATHER ,

    IF YOU WORSHIP THE FATHER YOU ALSO WORSHIP ALL HE DOES FOR YOU AND SO CANNOT ALIENATE THE SON FROM THE FATHER ,BECAUSE THE FATHER SEND HIM TO BE THE DOOR TO GET TO THE FATHER THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL ,WHO ARE WE TO ARGUE WITH THE FATHER ON WHAT HE DOES AND THE WAY HE DOES IT ,YOU BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN

    #380386
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    OW SOME MORE CHEWING, AND TWISTING TO DO FOR YOU TO ANNUL THE TRUTH!

    THAT JESUS IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    John11:Jesus said to her:

    I AM THE RESURRECTION AND LIFE

    John 14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I AM THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE

    1John 5:12 HE THAT HAS THE SON, HAS LIFE
    .HE THAT HAS NOT THE SON HAS NOT THE LIFE

    John 3:36 HE THAT BELIEVES IN THE SON, HAS ETERNAL LIFE,

    I WILL ANSWER YOU WITH THESE SCRIPTURES;

    MT 11:27 “ All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
    JN 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    1JN 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

    UNDERSTAND THAT CHRIST WAS SEND TO US BY THE FATHER FOR A GOOD PURPOSE OR REASON ;IT SEEMS YOU HAVE MIST IT .

    WAS IT CHRIST PLAN TO COME DOWN OR THE FATHER PLAN ???

    #380387
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    TO BE SAVED WE HAVE TO KNOW CHRIST GOD AND FATHER AND THE REASON FOR THE SON ;

    JOB 18:21 “Surely such are the dwellings of the wicked,
    And this is the place of him who does not know God.”

    GAL 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods

    TIT 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

    1JN 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

    Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    AS YOU CAN SEE IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW GOD AND THE ONE HE AS SEND TO US

    #380388
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 04 2014,02:45][/quote]

    Quote
    Charles, you must stop reading things into the scriptures.  You have started off with your own idea of what the scriptures SHOULD teach, and have set out to FORCE them to teach that thing – whether or not they really DO teach that thing.
    Don't teach the scriptures, Charles.  Let them teach you.

    Mike,

    READ AGAIN:

    1Peter 1 BEING BORN AGAIN

    not of corruptible SEED,  SATANIC MORTAL FLESH!

    but incorruptible,   GODLY

    BY THE WORD OF GOD WHO LIVES AND REMAINS FOR EVER

    THE WORD OF GOD WHO LIVES…….

    NOT THE WORD OF GOD WHICH LIVES…..

    NOT THE WORDS OF GOD WHICH LIVE……

    SO, WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD WHO LIVES AND REMAINS FOREVER MIKE?

    ALSO:

    WHAT DOES THE SEED STAND FOR!

    READ IN CASE YOU DON'T SEE:

    Galatians 3:16To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, And to his seeds, as of many: but as of one,

    AND TO YOUR SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST

    SO THE SEED CAME  BY THE WORD OF GOD  

    THE SEED MIKE IS JESUS CHRIST  WHO CAME BY THE WORD OF GOD!

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    John1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world

    it never enlightened you I'm afraid Mike!

    SO I REPEAT:

    NOW ANSWER:

    SINCE WE ARE BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE SEED JESUS CHRST WHICH CAME OUT FROM THE WORD OF GOD!ACCORDING TO THIS SCRIPTURE ABOVE,

    BY WHOM ARE WE BORN AGAIN?

    THEREFORE:

    WHO IS OUR FATHER?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380389
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    YOU SAY;WHAT DOES THE SEED STAND FOR!

    THE SEED DOES NOT STAND FOR THE FLESH BUT FOR THE SPIRIT ;THE BAD SEED MEANING THE MIND AND HEART OF THE PEOPLE ARE CORRUPT BY SIN, THE GOOD SEED ARE THOSE THAT RECEIVED THE WORD OF THE KINGDOM AND RESPOND TO IT GLADLY AND SO PRODUCE THE FRUITS THERE OFF

    #380390
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,07:17][/quote]

    Quote
    TO BE SAVED WE HAVE TO KNOW CHRIST GOD AND FATHER AND THE REASON FOR THE SON ;

    Terraricca,

    WRONG!

    ON EARTH,

    JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST!

    AND YOU ARE SAVED!

    AS EASY AS THAT!

    BECAUSE ONCE YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST YOU CANCEL OUT SATANA! THE DIRECT OPPONENT TO GOD! ON HIS OWN GROUND!

    WE MUST PROCLAIM ALL WHAT WE DO IN JESUS' NAME!

    BUT IF WE GO DIRECTLY TO GOD ALMIGHTY WE ARE IGNORED!

    JESUS IS THE POWER, AND WISDOM OF GOD!

    HE INHERITED THE DEITY'S ROLE!

    John14:If you

    HAD KNOWN ME,

    you would without doubt

    HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and

    YOU HAVE SEEN HIM

    Luke 9:35……………This is my beloved Son; HEAR HIM!.

    THE FATHER DECLARED THAT WE MUST HEAR ONLY JESUS

    THAT'S ALL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380391
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST!

    AND YOU ARE SAVED!

    AS EASY AS THAT!

    I heard of a man that was in a movie and his line was that he believed in God but he hated him.

    Does salvation come from such belief?

    #380394
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    Terraricca,

    WRONG!

    ON EARTH,

    JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST!

    AND YOU ARE SAVED!

    AS EASY AS THAT!

    WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE QUOTED YOU, YOU INVENTING YOUR OWN BELIEVE AWAY FROM GOD AND HIS SON

    #380426
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,May 04 2014,08:32][/quote]

    Quote
    I heard of a man that was in a movie and his line was that he believed in God but he hated him.  

    Kerwin,

    John 14:1 LET  NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED,

    OR MORE CLEAR:

    DO NOT CONFUSE, DISTURB YOUR HEART

    YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE ALSO IN ME!

    OR MORE CLEAR:

    BELIEVE IN GOD ALLRIGHT BUT MAKE SURE YOU BELIEVE ALSO IN ME OTHERWISE YOU WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED FOR SURE!  YOU WILL BE IN TROUBLE DEFINITELY!

    SO WHEN YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, AND PRONOUNCE HIS NAME   YOU BELIEVE IN, AND PRONOUNCE

    [B]THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    IF THAT MAN IN THE MOVIE BELIEVED IN GOD, HE IN THE TRUTH BELIEVED IN THE GOD OF THE WORLD,

    AND THE GOD OF THE WORLD DEFINITELY MADE HIM HATE:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SO BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH IN JESUS CHRIST AND

    JESUS CHRIST WILL GET HOLD OF YOU AND WILL NEVER LET YOU GO EXCEPT TO THE FATHER,

    HIMSELF JESUS CHRIST!

    ONLY HE MANIFESTS HIM!

    THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD

    AND WHAT IS THE BODY WITHOUT THE HEAD?

    WHAT IS THE HEAD WITHOUT THE BODY?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380427
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,09:19][/quote]

    Quote
    WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE QUOTED YOU, YOU INVENTING YOUR OWN BELIEVE AWAY FROM GOD AND HIS SON

    Terraricca,

    YOU NEVER POSTED ANY SCRIPTURES IN RELATION TO YOUR STATEMENTS!

    AND WHEN YOU POST SCRIPTURES,

    STRENGTHEN IT, AND SUPPORT IT , WITH YOUR DEFINITION , AND ARGUMENT! OR ELSE DO NOT POST IT AT ALL!

    OTHERWISE YOU WOULD CONFIRM THAT YOU ARE IN DOUBT, AND NOT AWARE OF WHAT YOU ARE STATING!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380443
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ May 04 2014,12:52)
    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,09:19][/quote]

    Quote
    WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE QUOTED YOU, YOU INVENTING YOUR OWN BELIEVE AWAY FROM GOD AND HIS SON

    Terraricca,

    YOU NEVER POSTED ANY SCRIPTURES IN RELATION TO YOUR STATEMENTS!

    AND WHEN YOU POST SCRIPTURES,

    STRENGTHEN IT, AND SUPPORT IT , WITH YOUR DEFINITION , AND ARGUMENT! OR ELSE DO NOT POST IT AT ALL!

    OTHERWISE YOU WOULD CONFIRM THAT YOU ARE IN DOUBT, AND NOT AWARE OF WHAT YOU ARE STATING!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    Quote
    CHARLES

    TO BE SAVED WE HAVE TO KNOW CHRIST GOD AND FATHER AND THE REASON FOR THE SON ;

    JOB 18:21 “Surely such are the dwellings of the wicked,
    And this is the place of him who does not know God.”

    GAL 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods

    TIT 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

    1JN 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

    Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    AS YOU CAN SEE IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW GOD AND THE ONE HE AS SEND TO US

    PS 78:22 Because they did not believe in God
    And did not trust in His salvation.
    JN 14:1 “ Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me

    YOU SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH IN SCRIPTURES ,YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS ARE CLEAR BUT NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURES ONLY IN YOUR OWN MIND

    #380444
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ May 04 2014,02:56)
    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,07:17][/quote]

    Quote
    TO BE SAVED WE HAVE TO KNOW CHRIST GOD AND FATHER AND THE REASON FOR THE SON ;

    Terraricca,

    WRONG!

    ON EARTH,

    JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST!

    AND YOU ARE SAVED!

    AS EASY AS THAT!

    BECAUSE ONCE YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST YOU CANCEL OUT SATANA! THE DIRECT OPPONENT TO GOD! ON HIS OWN GROUND!

    WE MUST PROCLAIM ALL WHAT WE DO IN JESUS' NAME!

    BUT IF WE GO DIRECTLY TO GOD ALMIGHTY WE ARE IGNORED!

    JESUS IS THE POWER, AND WISDOM OF GOD!

    HE INHERITED THE DEITY'S ROLE!

    John14:If you

    HAD KNOWN ME,

    you would without doubt

    HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and

    YOU HAVE SEEN HIM

    Luke 9:35……………This is my beloved Son; HEAR HIM!.

    THE FATHER DECLARED THAT WE MUST HEAR ONLY JESUS

    THAT'S ALL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    CHARLES

    THE DEMONS THAT CHRIST EXPELLED KNEW THAT HE WAS THE SON OF GOD AND BELIEVE IT ,OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT SAY IT ;BUT ARE THEY SAVED ???

    #380451
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,07:26][/quote]

    Quote
    THE SEED DOES NOT STAND FOR THE FLESH BUT FOR THE SPIRIT

    Terraricca,

    WHO ON EARTH SAID THAT THE SEED IS FLESH?

    SO SINCE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, NEITHER ME, NOR THAT SCRIPTURE, FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, AND THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO SUPPLIED ME WITH GOD’S WISDOM,

    PERMIT ME TO DEFINE THAT PARTICULAR SCRIPTURE IN ORDER FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO, IN THE TRUTH MAKE YOUR APPROPRIATE CONCLUSIONS

    1Peter 1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.

    BEING BORN AGAIN

    NOW TO BE BORN AGAIN DEFINITELY  THROUGHOUT! SPIRIT, SOUL AND FLESH!

    SINCE HUMANS WERE CORRUPTED THROUGHOUT IN ADAM SIN!

    NOW TO CLARIFIY:

    ADAM , AFTER HE WAS FORMED MAN OUT OF THE SLIME, WAS CREATED HOLY THROUGHOUT: TRANSFORMED BY THE BREATH, SPIRIT,FROM GOD IN

    SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH ALL OF GOD THE IMAGE OF GOD! THE FIRST LIVING SOUL   PERFECT MAN! BUT SUBJECT TO GOD!

    IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT JESUS WENT THROUGH THE SAME PROCESS, FIRST RESURRECTED AS MAN, AND THEN RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND BECAME THE PERFECT MAN/GOD SUBJECT TO NO ONE HE IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, HE BELONG TO THE DEITY!

    WHEN ADAM SINNED ,AND REJECTED GOD’S PLAN, HE WAS TRANSFORMED IN RELATION TO WHAT HE REPRESENTED! SATAN! THROUGHOUT: IN SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH, BUT INCLUDED BLOOD!  SATAN’S  EVIL SUBSTANCE!

    HE BECAME GOD’S CURSE!

    Genesis 3:17…………cursed is the earth in thy work;…………….

    SO ADAM WAS SO CURSED, THAT THROUGH HIS WORK, IN WHATEVER HE DID,HE ALSO  CURSED THE WORLD  FROM BAD TO WORSE! OBVIOUS THE REASON THAT GOD FLOODED THE WORLD!

    NOW YOU ARE AWARE OF WHAT PETER WAS REFERRING TO WHEN HE SAID :

    BEING BORN AGAIN NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED! LIKE ADAM WAS WITH:

    SATAN’S SPIRIT, SATANIC SEED WHICH WAS MANIFESTED IN THE BLOOD!FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME!

    SO WITHIN THE BLOOD THERE WAS THE SOUL LOCKED,AND WITH THE SOUL SATAN’S SPIRIT! ADAM WAS THROUGHOUT CORRUPTED THROUGH SIN BY THE INSERTION OF SATAN’S SPIRIT!

    PRACTICALLY SATAN IN FLESH FORM!

    FROM GOD'S IMAGE TO SATANA'S IMAGE!

    THE REASON THAT I STATED SATANIC FLESH

    SO PETER MADE IT CLEAR IN THAT STATEMENT:

    THAT AS ADAM WAS CORRUPTED WITH SATAN’S SEED, SATAN’S SPIRIT THROUGHOUT!

    HUMANS WERE BORN AGAIN ANEW ALSO THROUGHOUT:

    SPIRIT, SOUL AND FLESH!  BY JESUS CHRIST'S BLOOD GOT IT! GOD'S BLOOD AGAINST SATANA'S BLOOD!

    SATANA NEVER BELIEVED THAT GOD COULD ACHIEVE THE BLOOD PROCESS! SATANA'S UNIQUE SUBSTANCE! AND BECOME MAN IN JESUS!

    SO NOW OUR BLOOD IS CLEAN WITHOUT SATANA’S SPIRIT WITHIN THE SOUL! ON BIRTH! SO SATANA LOST HIS OWN SUBSTANCE HE LOST ALL EVEN WHAT HE BELIEVED HIS OWN!

    THE REASON THAT PETER DECLARED BEING BORN A NEW THROUGHOUT!

    WITH THE SEED OF JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD OF GOD ,  WHAT ELSE TO TOPPLE SATAN’S SPIRIT!

    AND I SAID:

    but incorruptible,   GODLY

    BY THE WORD OF GOD WHO LIVES AND REMAINS FOR EVER

    REMAINS FOREVER IN  US AS THE WORD THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN:

    John 8:35Now the servant SATAN abideth not in the house for ever; but the sonTHE WORD abideth for ever.

    SO YOU AND MIKE HAVE TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT SINCE JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD OF GOD, BY HIS OWN BLOOD, GAVE US A NEW BIRTH  THROUGHOUT IN  

    SPIRIT,SOUL AND  FLESH,

    HE IS THE ONLY FATHER OF ALL FLESH HUMANS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380454
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    Quote
    SO SINCE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, NEITHER ME, NOR THAT SCRIPTURE, FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, AND THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO SUPPLIED ME WITH GOD’S WISDOM,

    i HAVE MANY QUESTIONS WITH NO ANSWER ;SEND YOU SCRIPTURES THAT CONTRADICT YOU WAY OF THINKING ;DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU ARE BLESSED FROM GOD WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT AND HIS WISDOM ???

    YOU MUST THINK THAT GOD ALSO IS BLIND ,DEAF,AND RETARDED ;YOU ARE SO FAR FROM SCRIPTURES THAT I WANDER IF YOU ARE ON ANOTHER PLANET ,

    UNDERSTAND THIS IF YOUR THINKING IS BUT ONE TRUTH AWAY OF GOD'S TRUTH YOU ARE IN ERROR ,AND YOU HIT THE JACKPOT WITH MANY MANY UNTRUTH.

    Quote
    ADAM , AFTER HE WAS FORMED MAN OUT OF THE SLIME, WAS CREATED HOLY THROUGHOUT: TRANSFORMED BY THE BREATH, SPIRIT,FROM GOD IN

    SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH ALL OF GOD THE IMAGE OF GOD! THE FIRST LIVING SOUL PERFECT MAN! BUT SUBJECT TO GOD!

    READ THIS IS YOUR CRAP; FIRST ADAM NEVER RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF GOD BUT THE BREATH OF LIFE INTO HIS NOSTRILS (NOSTRILS ,ARE THE TOOLS BY WHICH WE BREADING ,WE ALL HAVE TWO AND IT IS CALLED NOSE )

    #380455
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:12)
    Stong's does say external appearance or the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision neither which fits what you want.


    Strong's definition fits EXACTLY what I've been saying, Kerwin.

    Jesus was existing as a being of light who looked like God Himself. He emptied himself and took on the appearance of a person who has nothing – a person who serves others. Ie: He didn't wear fancy clothes like the royals, lords, and Pharisees. His outward appearance to people on earth was as if he was a poor and “unimportant” pauper – not a king.

    In Mark 16, Jesus appeared to two of the disciples with a different outward appearance – one they had never seen before.

    So I don't know why you say Strong's definition doesn't “fit what I want”.

    #380456
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,10:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,10:19)
    It is said all throughout scripture that Jesus' own Father and God is the one who raised Jesus from the grave.


    Mike,

    ARE YOU REFERRING TO THIS:


    Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.


    No……. to these:

    Acts 2:24
    But God raised him from the dead……

    Acts 2:32
    God has raised this Jesus to life………

    Acts 3:15
    And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead………

    Acts 3:26
    When God raised up his servant………….

    Acts 4:10
    …….that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead……..

    Acts 5:30
    The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead………..

    Shall I go on, Charles? There are plenty more of them, you know.

    Or are these enough to tell you that “God” and “Jesus Christ” are two different people, and ONE of them raised the OTHER of them from the dead?

    #380457
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,May 04 2014,09:19][/quote]

    Quote
    WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE QUOTED YOU, YOU INVENTING YOUR OWN BELIEVE AWAY FROM GOD AND HIS SON

    Terraricca,

    I AM FIGHTING THIS CLEAR AUTHENTIC TRUE SCRIPTURES HEREUNDER!

    READ:

    John5: 24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who

    HEAR MY WORD,

    and believeth him that sent me, AND BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SENT FROM GOD,

    HAS ETERNAL LIFE;

    and cometh NOT

    INTO JUDGEMENT,

    but is passed

    FROM DEATH TO LIFE.

    CLEAR :

    ONCE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS'WORDS, OBVIOUS WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SENT FROM GOD AUTOMATICALLY, THAT'S WHY WE BELIEVE IN HIM NO? NOTHING ELSE IS NEEDED AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380458
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,10:36)
    SO JESUS,MR MIKE,

    IS NO LONGER OUR BROTHER…………


    Charles,

    You WANT something to be the case, and then set about making it so in your own mind.

    You have personally CONCOCTED fantasies in your mind about the “soul of Satan”, an “Ex-Holy Spirit”, an “assimilation from Son to Father”……. and a whole bunch of other unscriptural garbage.

    I seriously question your sanity, Charles. The scriptures don't teach any of this crap you lay on us. You have made this stuff up in your own mind. And in the process, you have forsaken the actual truth of the scriptures.

    There is but one Most High God. He did not come to earth as flesh, but sent His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus did not BECOME the Father, but sits at the right hand OF the Father, waiting for his own Father and God (who is also OUR Father and God) to place his enemies at his feet.

    You need to get yourself ALIGNED with what the scriptures actually teach, Charles. I have grown weary of addressing your fantasies – so don't take it personally if I don't respond to all of your posts from now on.

    #380459
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,11:35)
    THE FACT THAT JESUS PROVED THAT HE WAS IN FLESH AND BONES, AND STILL ENTERED THROUGH WALLS ISN'T IT ENOUGH A PROOF THAT ONLY

    A GOD COULD ACHIEVE THIS 2000 YEARS AGO?


    What about the angel OF God who destroyed 185,000 Assyrians in one night?

    Could only God do that? Do you TWIST that scripture in your mind, and pretend that GOD HIMSELF came down from heaven and destroyed those Assyrians?

    Or is it only in the case of Jesus that you're hell-bent on forcing a SERVANT of God into BEING the very God he serves? ???

    Think, Charles! Peter walked on water as a flesh and bone human being. Will you tell us that only God could do such a thing, and therefore Peter WAS God? ???

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