John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,961 through 16,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #380460
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,12:17)
    Mike,

    JESUS WAS ALSO EX HOLY SPIRIT!


    See, this is what I'm talking about, Charles.

    Show me ONE single scripture that teaches us about an “Ex-Holy Spirit”.

    This is nothing but pure unscriptural nonsense – as is most of the things you post here.

    #380461
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,12:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,02:55)
    The SCRIPTURAL fact is that Jesus was the firstBORN of every CREATURE.  (Col 1:15)

    Mike,

    THAT IN NO WAY MEANS THE HE WAS CREATED!


    Yeah, actually it does, Charles.

    And I also listed about 5 other scriptures that support that first one.

    #380462
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,13:35)
    THAT THE SON IS THE LIFE OF MAN, NOT THE FATHER

    THE FATHER DOESN'T COUNT!


    Jesus' OWN Father and God “doesn't count”? ???

    Be careful where you tread, Charles. Each of us will have an accounting of the things we do and say in this life.

    #380463
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 03 2014,14:19)
    NOW ANSWER:

    SINCE WE ARE BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE SEED JESUS CHRST WHICH CAME OUT FROM THE WORD OF GOD!ACCORDING TO THIS SCRIPTURE ABOVE,

    BY WHOM ARE WE BORN AGAIN?


    I've already answered your misunderstanding of 1 Peter, Charles. I even quoted TRINITARIAN scholars, thinking that maybe you would believe them – since you don't believe us.

    #380464
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,21:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:12)
    Stong's does say external appearance or the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision neither which fits what you want.


    Strong's definition fits EXACTLY what I've been saying, Kerwin.

    Jesus was existing as a being of light who looked like God Himself.  He emptied himself and took on the appearance of a person who has nothing – a person who serves others.  Ie:  He didn't wear fancy clothes like the royals, lords, and Pharisees.  His outward appearance to people on earth was as if he was a poor and “unimportant” pauper – not a king.

    In Mark 16, Jesus appeared to two of the disciples with a different outward appearance – one they had never seen before.

    So I don't know why you say Strong's definition doesn't “fit what I want”.


    Mike,

    Because what you want to claim is that Jesus is composed of the same thing that God is not that he looks like God.

    According to you the two angels that came to Lot's existed in the form of human beings but their bodies were not composed of the same things.

    #380465
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 04 2014,00:44)
    YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE ALSO IN ME!


    Bam!  A perfect scripture to tell you that Jesus is NOT God.  (The words “believe ALSO in me” are a dead giveaway, Charles.)

    #380466
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,09:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,21:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:12)
    Stong's does say external appearance or the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision neither which fits what you want.


    Strong's definition fits EXACTLY what I've been saying, Kerwin.

    Jesus was existing as a being of light who looked like God Himself.  He emptied himself and took on the appearance of a person who has nothing – a person who serves others.  Ie:  He didn't wear fancy clothes like the royals, lords, and Pharisees.  His outward appearance to people on earth was as if he was a poor and “unimportant” pauper – not a king.

    In Mark 16, Jesus appeared to two of the disciples with a different outward appearance – one they had never seen before.

    So I don't know why you say Strong's definition doesn't “fit what I want”.


    Mike,

    Because what you want to claim is that Jesus is composed of the same thing that God is not that he looks like God.  

    According to you the two angels that came to Lot's existed in the form of human beings but their bodies were not composed of the same things.


    Kerwin,

    I ASSUME that Jesus – and his myriads of spirit brothers – are all composed of the same stuff that God is:  SPIRIT.

    But I have never claimed that Phil 2:6 teaches such a thing.  Phil 2:6 teaches that Jesus was existing in the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of God before taking on the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of a servant.

    As for the angels who came to Lot, they indeed had the “MORPHE” (outward appearance) of men.  Of course we know they were not men, right?

    #380467
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    So according to you Jesus existing in the outward appearance of God did not see equality with God as something to be grasped but instead emptied himself of his outward appearance and took on the out appearance of a servant, of which the two angels who visited Lot are.

    #380469
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    It all ties together.  In conjunction with 1 Cor 15, Phil 3:21 explains how Paul is EAGERLY awaiting the transformation of his lowly body into a glorious new spiritual body like the one Jesus (and those of heaven) has now.

    It is BETTER to have a wonderfully powerful spiritual body like those of heaven have – than to have a lowly flesh body like those of earth have.

    So Jesus was existing with one of those wonderfully powerful spiritual bodies (“in the form of God”) before emptying himself of this wonderful body and taking on the outward appearance, not only of a lowly human being, but of a human being who was a pauper, and not a king (“form of a servant”).

    And as if it was not sacrifice enough to transform from a glorious body to a lowly body, and not sacrifice enough to come as one of the lowliest OF those lowly flesh beings…….. he humbled himself EVEN FURTHER by becoming obedient to DEATH on a tree.

    #380542
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    You shifting on what you are saying Philippians 2 is speaking of. You are trying to explain how Jesus was existing in the our form of an angel, some of who happen to look like human beings, then emptied himself of that outward appearance to take on the outward appearance of a human being. It does not make sense.

    You can claim form means nature or essence but even that does not really make sense with essence of a servant. It still sound better that outward appearance.

    #380553
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,19:11)
    Mike,

    You shifting on what you are saying Philippians 2 is speaking of.


    No.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,19:11)
    You are trying to explain how Jesus was existing in the our form of an angel, some of who happen to look like human beings,  then emptied himself of that outward appearance to take on the outward appearance of a human being.    It does not make sense.


    Angels have, on occasion, appeared on earth in the “morphe” of men.  They do not look like that in heaven, Kerwin.  That is not their normal appearance, according to many scriptures that describe angels when they are not on earth.

    I'm saying that Jesus was existing in the form of his God, and in the form of his angel brothers – AS THEY LOOK IN HEAVEN……… not on earth.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,19:11)
    You can claim form means nature or essence but even that does not really make sense with essence of a servant.


    I DON'T claim that, Kerwin……. jammin does.  I have been arguing AGAINST his claim that “morphe” means “nature”.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,19:11)
    It still sound better that outward appearance.


    So “essence of a servant” is nonsensical to you?  Me too.  But then what is YOUR choice if you don't like “nature”, “essence”, OR “outward appearance”?

    Never mind.  It doesn't really matter what “sounds good” to you, because the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”.

    And the ONLY reason you are bucking so hard against “outward appearance” is because it throws a wrench into your unscriptural “God has no form” theory. If it wasn't for your preconceived notions, we would most likely not be having this argument.

    In fact, if not for those preconceived notions of yours, we would probably not argue about very many things at all, Kerwin. :)

    #380572
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    it is really hard to talk to mikeboll. it is like talking to a mongoloid baby

    #380576
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,01:59)

    Quote (jammin @ May 02 2014,07:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,10:45)
    WHO does Gill think the “God” is in Phil 2:6?

    It seems to me he says the word “God” refers to THE FATHER.  That means Gill DOESN'T think the word “God” refers to a “nature/species” known as “God”.

    So Gill is indeed supporting me on the thing we were actually discussing.


    really? hahaha

    that is only your OPINION.

    let me post what gill said

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but this phrase, “the form of God”, is to be understood of the nature and essence of God…….


    jammin,

    I feel like I'm trying to explain brain surgery to an ant.  I fear that your mental capacities are not up to the task at hand.

    Yes, I agree that Gill believes the phrase “form of God” refers to the “nature and essence of God“.

    BUT WHO IS THAT “GOD” HE IS TALKING ABOUT?

    Gill believes the “God” in Phil 2:6 is the Father…… NOT a “nature”.  So in his opinion, Phil 2:6 teaches us that Jesus was existing with the “nature and essence” OF THE FATHER.

    So here's the difference between me and Gill:

    1.  I believe Jesus was existing in the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of HIS OWN FATHER AND GOD, JEHOVAH.

    2.  Gill believes Jesus was existing with the NATURE AND ESSENCE of HIS OWN FATHER AND GOD, JEHOVAH.

    So like I said so many posts ago:  It doesn't really matter (for OUR current discussion) if you insist that “morphe” means “nature” or “species” or “essence”……. because the bottom line is that the word “God” in Phil 2:6 refers to Jesus' OWN GOD, the Father.  It refers to Jesus' own God both times the word is used in Phil 2:6.

    And on this point, Gill and I DISAGREE with you, because you think the word “God” refers to a “nature” or “species”……. and NOT to Jesus' own God, the Father.

    Can you see the difference, jammin?  ???

    Some of the Trinitarian scholars I quoted agree with you that “MORPHE” means “nature”.  But none of them agree with you that the word “GOD” refers to a “nature” or “species”.


    am i talking to the THEOS or morphe? hahaha
    you are really out of your mind!hahah

    i thought you dont believe morphe is nature but now you are saying that YOU DO BELIEVE GILL'S commentary saying that morphe is nature. hahaha

    #380577
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    i told you many times that you and your father have the same nature, HUMAN.
    do you understand? you are not your father but you are HUMAN just like your father.

    Christ is God just like his father. he is not GOD THE FATHER. i did not teach that. how many times do i need to tell you this boy?

    Christ is GOD THE ONLY SON. HE IS GOD by nature. BY NATURE MEANING HIS FORM is God.

    Christ is God
    the father is God

    Christ is NOT GOD THE FATHER. HE IS GOD but not GOD THE FATHER. HE IS GOD THE ONLY SON

    #380579
    jammin
    Participant

    gene

    you and your father have the same nature.
    you are both HUMAN.

    your nature is HUMAN.

    Christ and his father have the same nature, God.
    they have the same form (morphe). Christ is not the father. Christ is the son. he is just like his father. BEFORE HE BECAME HUMAN, HE WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD. no human can do that. we are created by God. we have no FORM before we became human. we are God's creation.

    when Christ became like us, he is TRULY HUMAN but you should know that he was existing in the form of GOd before he became human.

    #380581
    jammin
    Participant

    mike

    is Christ God? yes or no?

    i am not asking you if Christ is God the father. i am asking you if he is God. yes or no?

    are you HUMAN? yes or no?

    i am not asking you if you are your father. i am asking you if you are HUMAN. yes or no?

    #380583
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ May 02 2014,08:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,04:08)

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    There are two Greek words for form, morphe (Greek #3444) and schema (Greek #4976). They must both be translated form, because there is no other English equivalent, but they do not mean the same thing. Morphe (Greek #3444) is the essential form which never alters; schema (Greek #4976) is the outward form which changes from time to time and from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, the morphe (Greek #3444) of any human being is humanity and this never changes; but his schema (Greek #4976) is continually changing. A baby, a child, a boy, a youth, a man of middle age, an old man always have the morphe (Greek #3444) of humanity, but the outward schema (Greek #4976) changes all the time. — WILLIAM BARCLAY


    This information cannot be accurate, since Barclay says “morphe” never changes, and “schema” does change from time to time.

    It doesn't work because Mark 16:12 says Jesus appeared to them in a DIFFERENT “morphe”.  But Barclay says “morphe” never changes.

    It also doesn't work because of the teaching in Phil 2:6 itself, which clearly says Jesus was in one “morphe” before being CHANGED to a different “morphe”.

    I have respect for the knowledge of the scholars, and often learn many things from them.  But you must also check the things they write, since they are just men like us, and as such, are prone to human mistakes like we are.  We must also remember that the vast majority of those scholars come into it with their own BIASES, and those biases often taint their conclusions.

    This is why I told you that the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”, and not “nature”.  

    1.  “God” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    2.  “A servant” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    3.  In Mark 16:12, Jesus did not appear to them in a different “nature”.

    I'm in the process of reading the NET Bible, cover to cover.  I read every footnote they have, and you'd be surprised at all the Hebrew and Greek words they simply don't KNOW the definition of, and so they make “educated guesses” about what those words really meant.

    They use context, and search out Aramaic, Arabic, and Akkadian cognates (base forms of the same word) to help them “guess” what the Hebrew word might have meant.

    In the case of “morphe”, some of them are “guessing” that it must also have a hidden meaning of “nature” – simply because they can't fathom God having a “form”, or “outward appearance”.

    But God DOES have an outward appearance – so the search to come up with a different meaning of “morphe” is really unnecessary.

    Nevertheless, this is how they do it, jammin.  This is how they translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words of scripture into English the best they can.


    let me the post the profile of barclay

    While professor, he decided to dedicate his life to “making the best biblical scholarship available to the average reader”. The eventual result was the Daily Study Bible, a set of 17 commentaries on the New Testament, published by Saint Andrew Press, the Church of Scotland's publishing house. Despite the series name, these commentaries do not set a program of regular study. Rather, they go verse by verse through Barclay's own translation of the New Testament, listing and examining every possible interpretation known to Barclay and providing all the background information he considered possibly relevant, all in layman's terms. The commentaries were fully updated with the help of William Barclay's son, Ronnie Barclay, in recent years and they are now known as the New Daily Study Bible series.


    Hmmmm………….

    I gave you a very good REASON why the thing Barclay said cannot be right.

    1.  Barclay says “morphe” cannot be different.

    2.  Scripture says Jesus appeared to them in a DIFFERENT “morphe”.

    Instead of dealing with those FACTS, you instead posted a biography of Barclay himself.

    Is that your way of diverting away from the point I made, so you don't have to address it?  :)


    im just trying to give you the reality that YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A GREAT PRETENDER. hahaha

    barclay is a professor, a leading greek scholar, and author of many books and commentaries.

    what about you? you have nothing mike. you have no formal studies in greek. you are a big clown boy. hahahaha

    #380585
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2014,02:25)

    Quote (jammin @ May 02 2014,07:50)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

    Actually,I DO understand English, jammin.  On the other hand, it seems you sometimes struggle with it.

    If I am granted eternal life, then I – from that moment on – will be an eternal being.  I would be ETERNAL, jammin.

    On the contrary, being ETERNAL does NOT necessarily mean FROM eternity.

    Angels were created as ETERNAL beings – never to die.  That doesn't mean the angels are FROM eternity.

    Consider:

    Matthew 25:41
    Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

    Does the fact that the fire is ETERNAL mean that fire has existed FROM eternity?


    ill repeat what matthew said.
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    2:5-11 The example of our Lord Jesus Christ is set before us. We must resemble him in his life, if we would have the benefit of his death. Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh 1:1,


    jammin,

    The phrases “FROM eternity” and “only begotten” are at odds with each other.  I agree with Matthew Henry that Jesus can indeed be “eternal” and “begotten”.  But Jesus can't be “FROM eternity” and also “begotten”, because “begotten” refers to a time of being brought into existence.

    I also agree with Matthew Henry that Christ had two different natures.  He started off with a divine spiritual nature, like his God and the other spirit sons of his God also have.

    And then he was made in the form of a human being, and partook in human nature.

    Hebrews 2:14
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Some of us will experience the REVERSE of that, jammin.  Some of us started off with human nature, and will partake in divine nature.  

    2 Peter 1:4
    Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    But the fact that some of us will have divine nature doesn't mean we will BE God Almighty.  Likewise, the fact that Jesus has divine nature doesn't mean that he IS God Almighty.

    I have quoted a scripture about “eternal fire” in the quote box above.  Does the fact that the fire is “eternal” mean the fire has existed “FROM eternity”?  YES or NO?


    did you read what matthew said? i doubt. he supported the phil 2.6 with john 1.1 verse.
    he said Christ is God and that is the meaning of the jn1.1 verse. therefore, Christ is God phil 2.6. he has the divine nature!

    2 peter 1.4 has nothing to do with phil 2.6. are you reading the context boy? hahaha

    phil 2.6 said Christ was in the form of God before he became HUMAN. 2 pet 1.4 did not mention that THOSE BELIEVERS WAS EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD BEFORE they BECAME HUMAN by nature. hahaha
    that is totally ridiculous mike. hahaha
    you are trying to connect those two verse but the truth is they dont have connections.

    let me post what gill said about 2pet 1.4

    that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature; not essentially, or of the essence of God, so as to be deified, this is impossible, for the nature, perfections, and glory of God, are incommunicable to creatures; nor, hypostatically and personally, so as the human nature of Christ, in union with the Son of God, is a partaker of the divine nature in him; but by way of resemblance and likeness, the new man or principle of grace, being formed in the heart in regeneration, after the image of God, and bearing a likeness to the image of his Son, and this is styled, Christ formed in the heart, into which image and likeness the saints are more and more changed, from glory to glory, through the application of the Gospel, and the promises of it, by which they have such sights of Christ as do transform them, and assimilate them to him; and which resemblance will be perfected hereafter, when they shall be entirely like him, and see him as he is:

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    the divine nature—not God's essence, but His holiness, including His “glory” and “virtue,” 2Pe 1:3; the opposite to “corruption through lust.” Sanctification is the imparting to us of God Himself by the Holy Spirit in the soul. We by faith partake also of the material nature of Jesus (Eph 5:30). The “divine power” enables us to be partakers of “the divine nature.”

    you are a big clown hahahah

    #380628
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Angels have, on occasion, appeared on earth in the “morphe” of men. They do not look like that in heaven, Kerwin. That is not their normal appearance, according to many scriptures that describe angels when they are not on earth.

    Are you speaking of the one one that look like a son of man. I always though that meant they looked like a human being.

    I also do not remember in Scripture where it is written angels are shape shifters.

    #380634
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 05 2014,09:26)
    mike

    is Christ God? yes or no?

    i am not asking you if Christ is God the father. i am asking you if he is God. yes or no?

    are you HUMAN? yes or no?

    i am not asking you if you are your father. i am asking you if you are HUMAN. yes or no?


    J

    so you really ask if Christ is a god ??? right i think we all agree to that

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