John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,821 through 16,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #379498
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,12:00)

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,08:11)
    2. it means that that nature of the person WORD is God.
    very simple. do not make things complicated.


    I now realize that I must make things VERY SIMPLE for you to understand them, jammin.  

    The point is that when Barclay spoke of the nature of the Word, he was speaking of the nature of A PERSON.

    Likewise, when he used the phrase, “the nature of God” in the same sentence and same context, he was also talking about the nature of A PERSON.

    But I see that this is too deep for you.


    hahaha

    you are the one who does not understand the meaning of that verse.

    let me post WHAT BARCLAY SAID ABOUT JOHN 1.1

    John 1:1-18 exegesis, Biblical exegesis, Bible study. … as we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God” (Barclay, 17).

    did you see that? hahaha

    poor mike. barclay is referring to the nature God (essence).
    the Word( christ) was God!

    #379499
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    do you exist in the form of man or the form of your own man?

    mike,

    if i say i exist in the form of MAN, does it mean that i exist in the form of MY OWN MAN>? yes or no?

    #379533
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,02:10)
    kerwin,

    do you exist in the form of man or the form of your own man?

    mike,

    if i say i exist in the form of MAN, does it mean that i exist in the form of MY OWN MAN>? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    If you say that you exist in the form of a man it means you are a mere man, a servant of sin.

    #379623
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 25 2014,10:00][/quote]

    Quote
    But forget about the “sister” part, Charles.  Tell me how God Almighty does NOT have daughters, but “Father Jesus” DOES have daughters.  Explain that to me using scriptures.

    P.S.  When you pray for me, please pray TO our one and only God Jehovah, THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ.

    Mike,

    BUT HOW ON EARTH CAN'T YOU SEE THE TRUTH!

    ANSWER:

    IS THE FIRST ADAM  THE  FATHER OF ALL HUMANITY AS A LIVING SOUL

    IS JESUS THE SECOND ADAM  THE FATHER OF ALL HUMANITY AS ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT?

    NOW THAT'S THE REASON YOU DON'T WANT TO POST

    ONE SCRIPTURE OUT OF MANY,WHICH DECLARES JESUS CHRIST AS  THE  FATHER, IN THAT SAME SENSE!

    OR DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT

    SATAN IS A FATHER TO ALL HUMANITY, IN RELATION TO

    LIES,  SINS,  DEATH AND SO ON,

    AND JESUS IS FATHER TO NONE?

    ANSWER MR SCRIPTURAL LIAR

    NOW I PRAY TO JESUS CHRIST, AND BY DOING SO IT IS ALSO TO

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379628
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 24 2014,12:32][/quote]

    Quote
    From NETNotes:

    Hebrew wisdom literature often assumes and reflects the male-oriented perspective of ancient Israelite society.

    Mike,

    FOR GOD'S SAKE, THE ABOVE WAS AN ANSWER TO MY POST, WHICH WAS ONLY A MERE 5 LINES CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT I WRITE IN BLOCK CAPITALS!

    AND IN THAT PARTICULAR POST I SAID THESE EXACT WORDS:

    NOW TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND!

    ONLY ISRAEL WAS CLASSIFIED AS PEOPLE FOR GOD! AND ALSO ONLY AS A FIRST BORN SON!

    OK? MIKE  GOT IT? THEN I JUSTLY SAID: [/B]

    I KNOW  IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SINCE YOU RELY ONLY ON WORLDLY WISDOM,

    BUT I ASK YOU THIS WHAT DOES ISRAEL SIGNIFY SINCE ONLY AS A FIRST BORN SON?

    NOW CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

    I REPEAT IN DETAIL:

    GENESIS 32 24:28

    WHAT WAS THE REASON THAT THE SUPPOSED GOD AS MAN CHANGED HIS NAME TO ISRAEL WHILE WRESTLING?

    ALSO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD WAS REALLY IN THE FORM OF MAN?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379629
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike,

    BY THE WAY, I LEFT THIS OUT:

    NOW READ THESE SCRIPTURE:

    And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    ANSWER:

    WHY THE LORD GOD CALLED ISRAEL MY FIRST BORN SON?

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DAUGHTER?

    #379630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 25 2014,14:05)
    you are the one who does not understand the meaning of that verse.

    let me post WHAT BARCLAY SAID ABOUT JOHN 1.1

    John 1:1-18 exegesis, Biblical exegesis, Bible study. … as we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God” (Barclay, 17).

    did you see that? hahaha


    Yes jammin,

    Barclay says that the Word has the very same character AS GOD HAS.

    And who is “GOD”?

    #379632
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 25 2014,14:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,12:04)
     You can show BIASED ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS that render the Greek word “morphe” as “nature” – but that word simply means “outward appearance”.


    see. i will always ask for a verse but you always give me IMAGINATION, FAIRY TALE, ILLUSION. poor mike.

    i did not give you BIASED translation. THOSE TRANSLATION are translated by bible scholars. they know greek mike. what about you? you dont even have a formal study in greek.

    let me post the Strong's Greek Lexicon

    morphe:
    shape, nature:–form.

    did you see that?
    poo mike. you need to study more.


    Does the word mean “nature” in Mark 16:12?

    Mar 16:12
    After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country.

    Did you see what the scholar Barnes said from my last post?

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    The word (morphe) properly means, form, shape, bodily shape, especially a beautiful form, a beautiful bodily appearance – Passow.

    Did you see what else he said?

    The word “morphe” is often applied to the gods by the classic writers, denoting their appearance when they became visible to people……..

    The word doesn't refer to “nature”. Early scholars have INCLUDED the definition “nature” out of thin air – to avoid a teaching that speaks of God having a FORM, jammin.

    But none of this really matters, since whether you use “form” or “nature”, it is clear from the CONTRASTS and CONJUNCTIONS of the CONTEXT that Jesus was existing in the form/nature of the Father, ie: his own God.

    I have posted many TRINITARIAN scholars who point this out to you, jammin. It is your choice whether you believe them or not.

    #379633
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    Your posts are long, confusing, unscriptural, and often have many insults directed at me.

    I don't have time for nonsense.

    If YOU can CLEARLY and DIRECTLY show me why God the Father is ONLY the Father of male human beings, but Jesus is the “Father” of both male and female human beings, do it BRIEFLY.

    Nick and I have already posted scriptures that prove you wrong, but knock yourself out.

    #379671
    jammin
    Participant

    Mike you dont understand the commentary because you did not read the whole thing. Haha.

    Let me post what jamiesson commentary said:
    …the former, “His being,” or NATURE, His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE.

    #379673
    jammin
    Participant

    Gill's exposition said

    but this phrase, “the form of God”, is to be understood of the nature and essence of God, and describes Christ as he was from all eternity;

    that he was in being before his incarnation; that he existed as a distinct person from God his Father, in whose form he was, and that as a divine person, or as truly God, being in the glorious form, nature, and essence of God; and that there is but one form of God, or divine nature and essence, common to the Father and the Son, and also to the Spirit;

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    2:5-11 The example of our Lord Jesus Christ is set before us. We must resemble him in his life, if we would have the benefit of his death. Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh 1:1,

    And many more haha. therefore your doctrine is not supported by those commentaries. Those commentaries tell us that the father and the son HAVE THE SAME FORM. that is why they said christ is God just like his father but of course, you will not accept that haha. Your cut and paste strategy is not effective. Haha. You HAVE TO READ THE WHOLE THING FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANING OF IT.

    About barclay, he said morphe is form but he believes that phil 2:6 also talks about the nature or essence

    William barclay study bible
    Philippians 2:6 : Being in the form of God; he was by nature in the very form of God.

    barclay also said that morphe is the ESSENTIAL FORM which never alterr

    There are two Greek words for form, morphe (Greek #3444) and schema (Greek #4976). They must both be translated form, because there is no other English equivalent, but they do not mean the same thing. Morphe (Greek #3444) is the essential form which never alters; schema (Greek #4976) is the outward form which changes from time to time and from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, the morphe (Greek #3444) of any human being is humanity and this never changes; but his schema (Greek #4976) is continually changing. A baby, a child, a boy, a youth, a man of middle age, an old man always have the morphe (Greek #3444) of humanity, but the outward schema (Greek #4976) changes all the time. — WILLIAM BARCLAY

    You have no formal study in greek language mike. You are a moron. You shoult study first before talking to me hahaha

    #379677
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2014,15:06)

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,02:10)
    kerwin,

    do you exist in the form of man or the form of your own man?

    mike,

    if i say i exist in the form of MAN, does it mean that i exist in the form of MY OWN MAN>? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    If you say that you exist in the form of a man it means you are a mere man, a servant of sin.


    What is your answer then?do you exist in form of man or form of your own man?

    #379678
    jammin
    Participant

    Mike

    Here is the analysis of barnes

    barnes notes on the bible

    The second opinion is, that the word is equivalent to nature, or being; that is, that he was in the nature of God, or his mode of existence was that of God, or was divine. This is the opinion adopted by Schleusner (Lexicon); Prof. Stuart (Letters to Dr. Channing, p. 40); Doddridge, and by orthodox expositors in general, and seems to me to be the correct interpretation.

    Again, you have to read the whole thing for you to UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF IT. you are a moron mike hahahaha

    #379679
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2014,02:43)

    Quote (jammin @ April 25 2014,14:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,12:04)
     You can show BIASED ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS that render the Greek word “morphe” as “nature” – but that word simply means “outward appearance”.


    see. i will always ask for a verse but you always give me IMAGINATION, FAIRY TALE, ILLUSION. poor mike.

    i did not give you BIASED translation. THOSE TRANSLATION are translated by bible scholars. they know greek mike. what about you? you dont even have a formal study in greek.

    let me post the Strong's Greek Lexicon

    morphe:
    shape, nature:–form.

    did you see that?
    poo mike. you need to study more.


    Does the word mean “nature” in Mark 16:12?

    Mar 16:12
    After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country.

    Did you see what the scholar Barnes said from my last post?

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    The word (morphe) properly means, form, shape, bodily shape, especially a beautiful form, a beautiful bodily appearance – Passow.

    Did you see what else he said?

    The word “morphe” is often applied to the gods by the classic writers, denoting their appearance when they became visible to people……..

    The word doesn't refer to “nature”.  Early scholars have INCLUDED the definition “nature” out of thin air – to avoid a teaching that speaks of God having a FORM, jammin.

    But none of this really matters, since whether you use “form” or “nature”, it is clear from the CONTRASTS and CONJUNCTIONS of the CONTEXT that Jesus was existing in the form/nature of the Father, ie:  his own God.

    I have posted many TRINITARIAN scholars who point this out to you, jammin.  It is your choice whether you believe them or not.


    Mike,

    Any expert would tell you that Barnes has insignificant evidence to base his conclusion on as morph is only used two times in the exact same form in Scripture.  It is used in a slightly different form to speak of the form of a servant.  There are variations of the same root that are used to speak in other ways.  Romans 2:20 used one of those variations.

    Romans 2:20
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

    Another variation is:

    Galatians 4:19
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

    The first variation is a feminine noun and the second is a verb but all three have the syllable morph in common and can be translated to a variation of form.

    I do not see where any of this supports jammins claim not do I think many expert Trinitarians would agree with him.

    #379681
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 27 2014,09:14)
    Mike

    Here is the analysis of barnes

    barnes notes on the bible

    The second opinion is, that the word is equivalent to nature, or being; that is, that he was in the nature of God, or his mode of existence was that of God, or was divine. This is the opinion adopted by Schleusner (Lexicon); Prof. Stuart (Letters to Dr. Channing, p. 40); Doddridge, and by orthodox expositors in general, and seems to me to be the correct interpretation.

    Again, you have to read the whole thing for you to UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF IT. you are a moron mike hahahaha


    Jammin,

    Do you know what the scholarly words mean? It looks to me like it was not written for lay persons like you and me.

    #379734
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,April 27 2014,14:30][/quote]

    Quote
    The second opinion is, that the word is equivalent to nature, or being; that is, that he was in the nature of God, or his mode of existence was that of God, or was divine.    

    Kerwin,

    FEW PAGES BACK YOU AND ME DISCUSSED ,OR RATHER I DEFINED THE STATEMENT WHICH JESUS SAID TO MARY MAGDALENE:

    John 20:17 ……………But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    WHICH ACTUALLY MEANS:

    I ASCEND TO THE STATE OF my Father and to THE STATE OF your Father, to my God and your God.

    I ALSO PROVED THIS TRUTH SINCE:

    THE PREP.TO MEANS MOTION TOWARDS TO INTERFACE WITH

    ACCORDING TO THE STRONG'S GREEK

    4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to “interface with” (literally, moving toward a goal or destination).

    SO THE ABOVE IS THE REAL DEFINITION, CONSIDERING THE FACT IN MARK IT SAYS:

    Mark 16:12 After these things, he appeared before two of them IN ANOTHER FORM……………

    WHICH PROVES THAT JESUS DID BECAME IN THE TRUTH AS HE SAID TO MAGDALENE:

    THE ALMIGHTY FATHER AND ALMIGHTY GOD TO ALL HUMANITY! IN SPIRIT AND FLESH FORM

    THE REASON THAT THEY NEVER RECOGNIZED JESUS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379736
    carmel
    Participant

    KERWIN,

    REFLECT NOW ALSO THAT:

    SINCE HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO MARY, A WOMAN SCRIPTURALLY SYMBOLIZES THE FLESH,IN EVE, THE MOTHER OF ALL EARTHLY SATANIC LIVING

    HE DECLARED THAT HE THEREFORE IS NOW THE OWNER OF ALL THE ENTIRE FLESH,AS CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    John 17:2 AS YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESHthat he may give eternal life………………

    THEREFORE JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND FATHER ALSO TO  FEMALES!

    WHICH GOD THE FATHER AS A PRINCIPAL ISN'T YET,

    SINCE SATAN THE SPIRITUAL FEMALE FIGURE IN SCRIPTURES STILL IN CONTROL OF THIS WORLD!

    DUE TO THE FACT THAT OFFICIALLYJESUS REDEEMED HUMANITY ONLY IN THE FLESH, SINCE HE  RESURRECTED AS MAN  IN THE FLESH, WHILE HER SOUL WAS STILL IN HELL,

    THEREFORE SATAN NEVER ACCEPTED THE FACT THAT THE MAN IN THE GRAVE WAS THE SAME PERSON ALSO IN HELL

    NOW  GOD ALMIGHTY THE FATHER, STILL IS IN THE PROCESS TO PUT JESUS' ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL,ON EARTH AND  ESTABLISH HIMSELF ALSO ONCE AND FOR ALL  AS

    THE DAUGHTER OF GOD, OR

    FEMALE/GOD

    SINCE IN JESUS HE ESTABLISHED HIMSELF ON EARTH AS

    THE SON OF GOD

    MALE/ GOD

    AND THEREFORE:

    SHE WILL CRUSH HIS HEAD!

    #379765
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    I am not following you as I have no idea what instance if 4314 prós you are writing if. I found the definition where you said in Strong's but I do not know what passage of Scripture you are speaking of that has it in.

    #379766
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:28)
    ….His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God…..


    When Jamiesson says “with God”, who (not “what”) is the “God” he is talking about?

    #379767
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)

    Gill's exposition said

    ……that he existed as a distinct person from God his Father, in whose form he was………


    Gill says Jesus was existing in the form of “God the Father”.  He knows the word “God” refers to the Father, and not to a “nature/species”.

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God…….


    Matthew Henry says Jesus was existing in the form OF God as the only begotten Son OF God.  He is saying that Jesus was the Son of the Father, and was existing in the form of that Father.  He also knows the word “God” refers to the Father, and not to a “nature/species”.

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    And many more haha. therefore your doctrine is not supported by those commentaries. Those commentaries tell us that the father and the son HAVE THE SAME FORM.


    Yes jammin, that's what I've been trying to tell you.  The Father and Son have the same form.  That's what Paul was teaching us in Phil 2:6.  He was teaching us that, before Jesus was made in the likeness of a human being, Jesus was existing in the form of his Father and God, Jehovah.

    Jesus and his own God, Jehovah, were existing in the same form before Jesus was made into the likeness of a human being.  Isn't that what I've been saying all along?  ???

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    About barclay, he said morphe is form but he believes that phil 2:6 also talks about the nature or essence


    Like I said before, it doesn't matter to me if you want to insist that “morphe” means “nature” in Phil 2:6……… because the bottom line is still that Jesus was existing in the form/nature of his own God, Jehovah.

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    There are two Greek words for form, morphe (Greek #3444) and schema (Greek #4976). They must both be translated form, because there is no other English equivalent, but they do not mean the same thing. Morphe (Greek #3444) is the essential form which never alters; schema (Greek #4976) is the outward form which changes from time to time and from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, the morphe (Greek #3444) of any human being is humanity and this never changes; but his schema (Greek #4976) is continually changing. A baby, a child, a boy, a youth, a man of middle age, an old man always have the morphe (Greek #3444) of humanity, but the outward schema (Greek #4976) changes all the time. — WILLIAM BARCLAY


    This information cannot be accurate, since Barclay says “morphe” never changes, and “schema” does change from time to time.

    It doesn't work because Mark 16:12 says Jesus appeared to them in a DIFFERENT “morphe”.  But Barclay says “morphe” never changes.

    It also doesn't work because of the teaching in Phil 2:6 itself, which clearly says Jesus was in one “morphe” before being CHANGED to a different “morphe”.

    I have respect for the knowledge of the scholars, and often learn many things from them.  But you must also check the things they write, since they are just men like us, and as such, are prone to human mistakes like we are.  We must also remember that the vast majority of those scholars come into it with their own BIASES, and those biases often taint their conclusions.

    This is why I told you that the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”, and not “nature”.  

    1.  “God” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    2.  “A servant” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    3.  In Mark 16:12, Jesus did not appear to them in a different “nature”.

    I'm in the process of reading the NET Bible, cover to cover.  I read every footnote they have, and you'd be surprised at all the Hebrew and Greek words they simply don't KNOW the definition of, and so they make “educated guesses” about what those words really meant.

    They use context, and search out Aramaic, Arabic, and Akkadian cognates (base forms of the same word) to help them “guess” what the Hebrew word might have meant.

    In the case of “morphe”, some of them are “guessing” that it must also have a hidden meaning of “nature” – simply because they can't fathom God having a “form”, or “outward appearance”.

    But God DOES have an outward appearance – so the search to come up with a different meaning of “morphe” is really unnecessary.

    Nevertheless, this is how they do it, jammin.  This is how they translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words of scripture into English the best they can.

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