John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,801 through 16,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #379218
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 23 2014,00:46)
    SO WHY SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN FROM A MALE PERSPECTIVE?

    YOU BETTER DO SO BECAUSE:

    I CONSIDER IT THAT YOU HAVE LOST YOUR ARGUMENT!


    From NETNotes:

    Hebrew wisdom literature often assumes and reflects the male-oriented perspective of ancient Israelite society.

    The main reason why is because God created man, and then created woman FOR man.  Women were basically created as possessions of men, and they were treated that way for years.

    We learn from the NT that even 4000 years later, woman were still not considered the equals of their male counterparts.

    Btw Charles, you can “consider” that I've lost the argument when I don't address every detail of your often silly posts…… but you would be wrong.  The truth is that I simply don't have the time or patience to wade through your mostly unscriptural waters with you.

    #379222
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 23 2014,00:56)
    CAN YOU SEE YOUR RABBIT HOLES MIKE?


    I can see that you keep posting the same crap over and over again – despite the fact I wasn't interested the first time you posted it. :)

    Charles, I only want the CONCLUSION of what you're trying to show me. I don't need all the other stuff.

    Here, I'll start it out for you:

    God Almighty only has sons, and no daughters because…………

    On the other hand, “Father Jesus” has sons AND daughters because…………….

    Just finish those two lines and be done with it already.

    #379223
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    1. i said before that we need to finish first the form of God before i can answer your question……….


    We have discussed that “form of God” thing a hundred times already.

    Mar 16:12
    After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country.

    This is the same word “morphe” that is used in Phil 2:6 and 2:7, jammin.  The word refers to the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of a person or thing.  It never refers to “nature” or “species”.

    Now, answer my question:  Does the SECOND word “God” in Phil 2:6 refer to a PERSON, or to a NATURE?  

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    that is why barclay translated that verse this way:
    and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.


    What does the phrase, “nature of the Word” mean, jammin?  Doesn't it refer to the nature of the PERSON known as “the Word”?  Of course it does.

    So then what would the phrase, “nature of God” mean in that same context?  Wouldn't it refer to the nature of the PERSON known as “God”?

    Barclay doesn't help you…… he hurts you.  Unless of course you want to start claiming that “the Word” is also a “nature/species”.  ???

    Find me a scripture where there is no guess work, jammin.  Find a scripture where it is IMPOSSIBLE for the word “God” to mean anything but “nature/species”.

    Using John 1:1 to support Phil 2:6 is like using Phil 2:6 to support John 1:1.  It is not even close to clear in either one of them that the word “God” refers to a “nature/species”.  Find a scripture where there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the word “God” refers to a “nature” or “species”.

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    3. do you have a verse that will tell you that MAN HAS THE NATURE GOD?


    Like your “answer” to #1, this one is also nothing but a dodge, jammin.  

    Would the “nature of Godkind” include being all powerful?  Would it include being all knowing?  Would it include NOT having a God of your own?

    If so, then Jesus does NOT have the “nature of Godkind”, since Jesus ISN'T all powerful, ISN'T all knowing, and DOES have a God of his own.

    And that makes your claim that “God” refers to a “nature” in Phil 2:6 null and void.  It cannot possibly refer to a “nature”, because by having that nature, Jesus WOULD BE all powerful, all knowing, and would NOT have a God of his own.

    BOTH of the words “God” in Phil 2:6 refer to the PERSON we know as “God the Father”.

    #379245
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 24 2014,12:25][/quote]

    Quote
    POST WHERE I SAID THAT JESUS HAVE DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS
    quote=carmel,April 21 2014,13:05]JESUS CHRIST IS

    THE FATHER OF ETERNAL LIFE  OF BOTH MALES AND FEMALES!    

    Mike,

    YOU ARE LOST IN YOUR OWN LIES!

    FOR YOU :

    THE FATHER OF ETERNAL LIFE

    MEANS:

    JESUS HAS DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS?

    ANSWER !

    NOW

    THE FIRST ADAM IS THE FATHER OF BOTH MALES AND FEMALES

    DOES THAT MEAN THAT ADAM HAS DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS?

    THE SECOND ADAM IS ALSO THE FATHER OF BOTH MALES AND FEMALES

    DOES THAT ALSO MEAN THAT JESUS, THE SECOND ADAM, HAS DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS?

    NOW REFLECT:

    THE FIRST ADAM IS A LIVING SOUL!

    THE SECOND ADAM IS A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT  ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT!

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE GENUINE SCRIPTURAL LIAR

    YOU ARE IN A CUL DE SAC SITUATION MIKE!

    THE END OF THE ROAD!

    I WILL PRAY FOR YOU!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379268
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2014,13:07)

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    1. i said before that we need to finish first the form of God before i can answer your question……….


    We have discussed that “form of God” thing a hundred times already.

    Mar 16:12
    After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country.

    This is the same word “morphe” that is used in Phil 2:6 and 2:7, jammin.  The word refers to the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of a person or thing.  It never refers to “nature” or “species”.

    Now, answer my question:  Does the SECOND word “God” in Phil 2:6 refer to a PERSON, or to a NATURE?  

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    that is why barclay translated that verse this way:
    and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.


    What does the phrase, “nature of the Word” mean, jammin?  Doesn't it refer to the nature of the PERSON known as “the Word”?  Of course it does.

    So then what would the phrase, “nature of God” mean in that same context?  Wouldn't it refer to the nature of the PERSON known as “God”?

    Barclay doesn't help you…… he hurts you.  Unless of course you want to start claiming that “the Word” is also a “nature/species”.  ???

    Find me a scripture where there is no guess work, jammin.  Find a scripture where it is IMPOSSIBLE for the word “God” to mean anything but “nature/species”.

    Using John 1:1 to support Phil 2:6 is like using Phil 2:6 to support John 1:1.  It is not even close to clear in either one of them that the word “God” refers to a “nature/species”.  Find a scripture where there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the word “God” refers to a “nature” or “species”.

    Quote (jammin @ April 23 2014,07:53)
    3. do you have a verse that will tell you that MAN HAS THE NATURE GOD?


    Like your “answer” to #1, this one is also nothing but a dodge, jammin.  

    Would the “nature of Godkind” include being all powerful?  Would it include being all knowing?  Would it include NOT having a God of your own?

    If so, then Jesus does NOT have the “nature of Godkind”, since Jesus ISN'T all powerful, ISN'T all knowing, and DOES have a God of his own.

    And that makes your claim that “God” refers to a “nature” in Phil 2:6 null and void.  It cannot possibly refer to a “nature”, because by having that nature, Jesus WOULD BE all powerful, all knowing, and would NOT have a God of his own.

    BOTH of the words “God” in Phil 2:6 refer to the PERSON we know as “God the Father”.


    do you understand english mike?

    do you know the difference between the “form of God” and “with God”.

    let me post your reasoning.

    mike believes Christ was existing in the form of his OWN GOD (albeit this is never written in the bible – phil 2.6)

    if im going to follow your reasoning, you are existing in the form of YOUR OWN MAN. only a moron can tell that. i do not exist in the form of MY OWN MAN. i exist in the form OF MAN.

    do you understand that? therefore the first word ” GOD” refers to nature and not to his FATHER! as you have said, YOU CANT GIVE ME ANY VERSION to support your imagination. the truth is, there's no greek scholar that will translate that version to FORM OF HIS OWN GOD because that is not the correct translation of the verse. it is FORM OF GOD or nature GOD.

    you do not know greek. base on your explanation,i can see that you did not go to school to study the greek language. you are a moron.

    Philippians 2:6
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    Philippians 2:6
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    6 who, though he was in the form of God,

    2. it means that that nature of the person WORD is God.
    very simple. do not make things complicated.
    you asked me if i can give you a verse that will explain the word “God” as nature. i gave you john 1.1

    how about you?: you gave me stories. hahaha
    poor mike.

    you also said, Find a scripture where there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the word “God” refers to a “nature”

    i already posted that verse many times but you dont want to accept it because you are a false teacher. you like fairy tales. hahaha
    read again phil 2.6 and john 1.1 over and over and make sure you wear eyeglasses boy. hahaha

    3. im not asking for your explanation. i am asking for a verse. can you give me a verse that says the MAN HAS THE NATURE OF GOD? yes or no?

    3.

    #379269
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    do you exist in the form of MAN or form of your own man?

    #379287
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,20:13)
    kerwin,

    do you exist in the form of MAN or form of your own man?


    Jammin,

    I yet fall short of God's glory so I do not yet dwell in his form.

    #379302
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 24 2014,12:32][/quote]

    Quote
    The main reason why is because God created man, and then created woman FOR man.  Women were basically created as possessions of men, and they were treated that way for years.

    Mike,

    YOUR POOR DEFINITION IS QUITE EVIDENT! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    YOU SAID ABOVE, BECAUSE GOD CREATED MAN FIRST!

    BUT WHY HE DID SO?

    WHY DIDN'T HE CREATE THEM BOTH TOGETHER?

    OR WHY NOT THE WOMAN FIRST?

    WOMAN WAS NOT CREATED AS POSSESSIONS OF MAN, BUT AS A HELPER! AND ALSO THERE'S A REASON FOR IT!

    WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO OPPOSING ELEMENTS! ENTITIES!

    SPIRIT AND MATTER! APART FORM HUMANS!

    AND GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE TO REPRESENT THESE ELEMENTS,  FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THERE WERE TWO OPPOSING SPIRITS IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION,

    GOD AND LUCIFER

    LIGHT AND DARKNESS!

    SPIRIT AND MATTER:

    AND OUR CREATION WAS CREATED UNDER CERTAIN JUSTIFIED PRINCIPALS!

    WHAT'S SPIRIT IS SPIRIT BELONGS TO GOD, AND WHAT'S FLESH IS FLESH BELONG TO LUCIFER!

    SO

    ADAM WAS CREATED AND SUBJECT TO GOD!   SPIRIT ROLE!

    AND

    EVE WAS BUILT AND SUBJECT TO ADAM, MATTER ROLE!

    SO AS A SPIRIT, GOD'S,  HE SHOULD OVERRULE MATTER!LUCIFER!

    SO ADAM ONLY,  WAS CREATED AS A LIVING SOUL:  

    SPIRIT IMAGE OF GOD!

    EVE FROM THE OTHER HAND WITHOUT EVEN A SPECIFIC TITLE OBVIOUS NOT GOD'S, HIS OPPONENT'S

    SO THE REASON THAT SCRIPTURE IS FROM THE MALE PERSPECTIVE IT IS ONLY BECAUSE IT IS GOD’S SPIRITUAL LITERATURE, TEACHING, WISDOM, AND MAN AS A PRINCIPAL WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    AND THE REASON THAT THE FEMALE FIGURE, AS A PRINCIPAL COULD IN NO WAY BE RELATED TO GOD BECAUSE SHE BECAME SUBJECT TO SATAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379307
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Rev22
    16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things [h]for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

    The WORD made FLESH

    The ROOT of David is the Spirit of Christ, of prophecy

    He is DESCENDANT of David by his adopted father, Joseph.

    #379316
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 24 2014,00:35)
    I WILL PRAY FOR YOU!


    The reason I included “sisters” is because we are told that someday we can be SONS to “God”, and BROTHERS to “Jesus”.

    A lot of English translations add the words “and sisters” into the text, although the words “and sisters” are not in the teaching of the Greek mss.

    But forget about the “sister” part, Charles. Tell me how God Almighty does NOT have daughters, but “Father Jesus” DOES have daughters. Explain that to me using scriptures.

    P.S. When you pray for me, please pray TO our one and only God Jehovah, THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ.

    #379328
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    2 Corinthians 6:18
    And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    #379329
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,08:11)
    mike believes Christ was existing in the form of his OWN GOD (albeit this is never written in the bible – phil 2.6)

    if im going to follow your reasoning, you are existing in the form of YOUR OWN MAN. only a moron can tell that.


    Actually, only a moron would be daft enough to not understand the very simple thing I'm saying, jammin.

    Listen closely……. I'll try to take baby steps with you:

    If the word “God” in the FIRST part of Phil 2:6 referred to a “nature” or “species” known as “God”, or “Godkind”, then it would be idiotic to say Jesus existed in the form of “his own God”.

    On the other hand (are you listening?), if the word “God” in the FIRST part of Phil 2:6 refers to the PERSON we know as “God”, then we know that PERSON is God the Father.  And since we know from other scriptures that God the Father IS INDEED the God OF Jesus, it would make PERFECT SENSE to say that Phil 2:6 teaches that Jesus was existing in the form of his own God, the Father.

    Can you see the difference jammin?  Can you see that I would NEVER say “the form of his own God” – IF the word “God” referred to a NATURE?

    But since the word “God” refers to Jesus' own God, the Father (both times that word is in Phil 2:6), then I am absolutely correct in saying that Jesus was existing in the form of his own God, Jehovah.

    The teaching of Phil 2:6 is that Jesus was existing in the form of the Father, but did not consider equality with the Father something to be grasped.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    Who being in the form of God,…. The Father; being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.

    The Trinitarian Gill also believes the word “God” refers to the Father, jammin.

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    Translate, “Who subsisting (or existing, namely, originally: the Greek is not the simple substantive verb, 'to be') in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence).

    ………that beauty was 'the form of God'; as 'the form of a servant' (Php 2:7), which is in contrasted opposition to it, takes for granted the existence of His human nature, so 'the form of God' takes for granted His divine nature [Bengel], Compare Joh 5:37; 17:5; Col 1:15, 'Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God' at a time before 'every creature,' 2Co 4:4,

    Those Trinitarians also don't believe it refers to any “essence” called “God” – but instead to the external characteristics of the PERSON known as “God”.

    These guys also make a great point about the CONTRAST between “form of God” and “form of a servant“.  The words “a servant” describe a PERSON, jammin………. not a “nature/species”.

    So (see if you can follow along here), to make the accurate CONTRAST that Paul made, the subject of “form of” must be the same thing in both cases.

    If the words “form of God” refer to the nature/species of a particular group of persons, then “form of a servant” must also refer to the nature/species of a particular group of persons.

    But “a servant” is neither a nature nor a species.

    On the other hand, if “the form of a servant refers to the form of a PERSON, then for the CONTRAST to work, “the form of God must also refer to the form of a PERSON.

    And as if they didn't do enough already, the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown scholars also gave us Colossians 1:15 as support for their understanding.  Just as 1:15 says Jesus is the image of the invisible God (the words “invisible God” referring to a PERSON), Phil 2:6 also teaches that Jesus was existing in the form (image) of the invisible God.  Both teachings refer to Jesus existing in the form or image of the PERSON known as “God” – it's just that Col 1:15 adds the word “invisible” to the teaching.

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    The word (morphe) properly means, form, shape, bodily shape, especially a beautiful form, a beautiful bodily appearance – Passow.

    In Philippians 2:7, it is applied to the appearance of a servant – and took upon him the form of a servant;” that is, he was in the condition of a servant – or of the lowest condition.

    The word “form” is often applied to the gods by the classic writers, denoting their aspect or appearance when they became visible to people……..

    Barnes knows the word “morphe” doesn't mean “nature/species”, jammin.

    Matthew Poole's Commentary

    ……..there is a cogent reason for it here, considering the form of God, in opposition to the form of a servant afterward, and in conjunction with equality to God, which implies the same essence and nature……..

    ……whence we may conclude the Son to be of the same (not only of like) substance with the Father……

    This guy takes the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown scholar's point about the contrast one step further.  He not only points out the CONTRAST between “form of God” and “form of a servant” – but also points out the CONJUNCTION with “equality with God”.  (This is the reason I wanted you to tell me what the SECOND word “God” referred to in Phil 2:6.)

    You might not understand such a deep thought, but the fact that Paul conjoins “was existing in the form of God” with the statement “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” shows that whatever the SECOND word “God” referred to, the FIRST word “God” also referred to.

    So in this case, we KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SECOND “God” refers to the PERSON of the Father.  And since we KNOW that part without a doubt, the FIRST word “God” must refer to the PERSON of the Father as well – or the conjunction doesn't work.

    So now we have both a CONTRAST and a CONJUNCTION that would simply not work if the FIRST word “God” in Phil 2:6 didn't refer to the PERSON of God the Father.

    Also, scholar Matthew Poole concluded that “form of God” means Jesus was the “same substance as the Father”.  I don't agree with his clearly Trinitarian biased conclusion, but it's easy to see that he also believes the “God” mentioned in the first part of Phil 2:6 is the Father.

    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the form of God:  Such as God himself is……….

    Yet another set of Trinitarian scholars who think the word “God” refers to the PERSON of “God Himself”.

    Vincent's Word Studies

    To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God.

    Vincent also understands “God” as referring to the PERSON of God the Father.

    These are just MEN that I quoted, and as such are flawed and prone to mistakes. But I quoted them so you can see that I am not alone in my understanding, jammin.  And you SHOULD BE smart enough to know that when Kerwin and I talk about Jesus existing in the form of his own God – it is only because we know that BOTH of the words “God” in Phil 2:6 refer to the PERSON of God the Father.

    So it's time you let
    up with the “form of your own man” games.  Everyone else here understands that we only say “form of his own God” because we know “God” refers to the Father, and not to a “nature/species”.

    We would not say such a thing if we believed “God” referred to a “nature” or a “species”.  And everyone who reads this thread knows that, jammin.

    So the game you're playing over and over again only makes YOU look like a fool………. not us.

    #379330
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,08:11)
    2. it means that that nature of the person WORD is God.
    very simple. do not make things complicated.


    I now realize that I must make things VERY SIMPLE for you to understand them, jammin.

    The point is that when Barclay spoke of the nature of the Word, he was speaking of the nature of A PERSON.

    Likewise, when he used the phrase, “the nature of God” in the same sentence and same context, he was also talking about the nature of A PERSON.

    But I see that this is too deep for you.

    #379333
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,08:11)
    3. im not asking for your explanation. i am asking for a verse. can you give me a verse that says the MAN HAS THE NATURE OF GOD? yes or no?


    No. Nor can you show a scripture that says JESUS has “the nature of God”. You can show BIASED ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS that render the Greek word “morphe” as “nature” – but that word simply means “outward appearance”.

    I can, however, show you a scripture that says human beings will share in “divine nature” – which is the nature of God, Jesus, and the angels.

    Now, you keep attempting to answer my question WITH a question of your own. I have now answered YOUR question, and it's time you answer the one I asked you.

    I want to know if “the nature of God” would include being all powerful. Would it?

    Would it include being all knowing? YES or NO?

    Would it include NOT having a God of your own? YES or NO?

    #379334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2014,18:38)
    Hi,
    2 Corinthians 6:18
    And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


    Well done, Nick. :)

    And for Charles:

    Isaiah 43
    6 I will say to the north, ‘Hand them over!’

    and to the south, ‘Don’t hold any back!’

    Bring my sons from distant lands,

    and my daughters from the remote regions of the earth,

    7 everyone who belongs to me,

    whom I created for my glory,

    whom I formed – yes, whom I made!

    Okay Charles? Jehovah had daughters – not just sons. Will that finally end the madness?

    #379395
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Nick Hassan,April 25 2014,11:38][/quote]

    Quote
    2 Corinthians 6:18
    And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    Nick,

    EXPLAIN IN SIMPLE ENGLISH WHAT IS THE MEANING OF:

    I SHALL BE A FATHER TO YOU, AND YOU WILL BE SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO ME  MEANS

    IS GOD ALMIGHTY THE FATHER OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS YET?

    SINCE HE SAID

    I SHALL BE………….

    ISN'T HE UP TO THIS MOMENT IN TIME IN THE TRUTH ONLY A

    FATHER AND GOD TO BOTH TO SONS AND DAUGHTERS THROUGH

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SINCE A FATHER CAN ONLY BE SO IF HE HAD FLESH AND  BLOOD LIKE HIS CHILDREN?

    WHICH ONLY JESUS HAD!

    OR IS YOUR FATHER A SPIRIT?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379396
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Charles,
    Have a good day.

    #379461
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,12:10)
    [/quote]
    [quote=mikeboll64,April 25 2014,12:10]


    Quote
     Okay Charles?  Jehovah had daughters – not just sons.  Will that finally end the madness?        

    Mike,

    YOU REALLY DON’T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE!

    YOU BET WE AREN’T NOT TILL TRUTH IS REVEALED!

    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU SIMPLY DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE ENGLISH!

    AND YOU ARE IN A REMOTEST STATE LIKE A PERSON IS GETTING DROWNED AND ARE LOOKING FOR A MATCH STICK TO GRAB ON!

    NO MIKE GOD ALMIGHTY DOESN’T HAVE DAUGHTERS, AND THE SCRIPTURES WHICH NICK AND YOU POSTED CONTRADICTS YOU IN CLEAR PLAIN ENGLISH

    WHERE DOES IT SAY

    GOD ALMIGHTY HAS, NOT HAD, DAUGHTERS!

    I SAID IN PLAIN ENGLISH:

    GOD ALMIGHTY SCRIPTURALLY HAS NO DAUGHTERS ONLY SONS, AND I ALSO IN DEPTH EXPLAINED THE REASON WHY!

    AND I ALSO SAID THAT THE LORD GOD IS NOT JUST GOD ALMIGHTY,

    BUT ALSO JESUS’ SPIRIT AS THE WORD IN
    CREATION!

    ISAIAH 43 1: 6 I will say to the north: Give up: and to the south: Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

    NOW LEARN SOME PLAIN ENGLISH:

    I WILL SHOW YOUR LIES IN DUE COARSE! SO I STILL HAVE TO,AND I DIDN'T YET! NO?

    IN THE SAME SENSE

    I WILL SAY TO THE NORTH………………… IN DUE COARSE , THROUGH JESUS CHRIST,

    NOW SINCE GOD ASSERTED THAT HE WILL DO SO,

    GET SCRIPTURES WHICH DECLARE THAT GOD DID SO!

    APART THAT THE WORDS SONS AND DAUGHTERS ARE SYMBOLICALLY MEAN

    SPIRIT, AND FLESH RESPECTIVELY!

    BUT ONE LIKE YOU WHO STILL DRINK MILK ,CANNOT SEE WHAT ONLY THOSE WHO DRINK WINE CAN SEE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379463
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Nick Hassan,April 25 2014,17:31][/quote]

    Quote
    Have a good day.  

    Nick,

    Test all things. Hold fast to what is good

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #379497
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2014,12:04)

    Quote (jammin @ April 24 2014,08:11)
    3. im not asking for your explanation. i am asking for a verse. can you give me a verse that says the MAN HAS THE NATURE OF GOD? yes or no?


    No.  Nor can you show a scripture that says JESUS has “the nature of God”.  You can show BIASED ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS that render the Greek word “morphe” as “nature” – but that word simply means “outward appearance”.


    see. i will always ask for a verse but you always give me IMAGINATION, FAIRY TALE, ILLUSION. poor mike.

    i did not give you BIASED translation. THOSE TRANSLATION are translated by bible scholars. they know greek mike. what about you? you dont even have a formal study in greek.

    let me post the Strong's Greek Lexicon

    morphe:
    shape, nature:–form.

    did you see that?
    poo mike. you need to study more.

Viewing 20 posts - 16,801 through 16,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account