John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,761 through 16,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #378496
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    I agree.

    #378520
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 18 2014,11:37][/quote]

    Quote
    Do you believe the Father God Almighty was the CHILD who was born to us?  If so, who was the child calling our heavenly Father when that child was on earth?  Does God the Father HAVE a Father of His own?

    Mike,

    IF YOU KEEP CONSIDERING THE WORD FATHER, FOR GOD THE FATHER IN OUR TERMS YOU NEVER DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    I BELIEVE THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WAS BORN IN A FLESH BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!

    THAT FLESH BODY IS GOD'S ALMIGHTY'S GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE WHICH COULD HAVE COME FROM THE SKY IN AN INSTANT!

    BUT HE OPTED TO BE BORN OF A WOMAN FOR HIS KINGDOM SAKE, NOT FOR HIS PERSONAL SAKE!

    NOTICE IT SAYS A CHILD NOT A SON BECAUSE JESUS WAS BOTH

    MALE AND FEMALE, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN,WHEN HE WAS BORN!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD ALMIGHTY AS A SPIRIT WITHIN HIS CONCEPT IS ALSO MALE AND FEMALE! BUT CANNOT HAVE THE TITLE OF A FATHER YET! IN THE TRUTH!

    ON THE LAST DAY GOD ALMIGHTY  WOULD OWN THE TITLE IN THE TRUTH OF, BOTH FATHER AND MOTHER OF ALL BOTH MALES AND FEMALES FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD WOULD BE REPRESENTED

    WITH THE SON AND WITH THE DAUGHTER

    WITH THE FATHER AND WITH THE MOTHER ALL IN THE WORD

    UP TO NOW ONLY THE SON REPRESENTS GOD ALMIGHTY

    ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS THE GOD IN THE TRUTH!

    ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF BOTH SONS AND DAUGHTERS IN THE TRUTH

    THEREFORE ALMIGHTY GOD HAS A FATHER OF HIS OWN!

    IN THE SAME SENSE LIKE YOUR FATHER HAS A FATHER OF HIS OWN IN YOU! ONCE YOU HAVE CHILDREN,

    BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE CHILDREN YOUR FATHER WOULD NEVER HAVE A FATHER OF HIS OWN BUT ONLY A SON OF HIS OWN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #378540
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 18 2014,07:24)
    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    THEREFORE HE IS NO LONGER IN THAT HUMAN STATE HE WAS RESURRECTED IN,

    BUT ASCENDED INTO BOTH IN THE STATE OF HIS FATHER'S SPIRIT,

    AND ALSO IN THE STATE OF OUR FATHER 'S FLESH WHICH HE ALWAYS OWNED!


    Charles,

    The Father doesn't have flesh. He has never had flesh.

    Also, you seem to be confusing the word “ascend” – which means “go up” – with the word “assimilate”.

    You have convinced yourself that Jesus ascending to his and our God means Jesus assimilated himself with his and our God……….. but you will not convince us of this unscriptural nonsense.

    #378541
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,11:24)
    T,

    I believe a better example is I believe Will is a sheep by nature.  The by nature is speaking of Will's sheep like actions.


    In that case, Pierre is right and you are saying it wrong, Kerwin.

    The fact that Will has “sheep like actions” would never cause anyone to say “Will is a sheep by nature”….. because Will is definitely NOT a sheep by nature.

    Neither is Jesus “God by nature”.  Nor are any of us “God by nature” – despite the fact we were created in God's image.

    None of God's many spirit and flesh sons are “God by nature”.

    #378542
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 19 2014,00:54)
    I BELIEVE THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WAS BORN IN A FLESH BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!

    NOTICE IT SAYS A CHILD NOT A SON BECAUSE JESUS WAS BOTH

    MALE AND FEMALE, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN,WHEN HE WAS BORN!


    Charles,

    Romans 8:3
    For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

    God Himself did not come, Charles.  He sent His Son (notice it doesn't say God sent His “Son/Daughter Combination”.) The things you post are at odds with what the scriptures say more often than I care to count.

    Quote (carmel @ April 19 2014,00:54)
    THEREFORE ALMIGHTY GOD HAS A FATHER OF HIS OWN!

    IN THE SAME SENSE LIKE YOUR FATHER HAS A FATHER OF HIS OWN IN YOU! ONCE YOU HAVE CHILDREN………


    I can't even begin to fathom what you're talking about in this last part.  I can only say it is both unscriptural and nonsensical to think our Heavenly Father Jehovah has a father of His own.

    #378577
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2014,23:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,11:24)
    T,

    I believe a better example is I believe Will is a sheep by nature.  The by nature is speaking of Will's sheep like actions.


    In that case, Pierre is right and you are saying it wrong, Kerwin.

    The fact that Will has “sheep like actions” would never cause anyone to say “Will is a sheep by nature”….. because Will is definitely NOT a sheep by nature.

    Neither is Jesus “God by nature”.  Nor are any of us “God by nature” – despite the fact we were created in God's image.

    None of God's many spirit and flesh sons are “God by nature”.


    Mike,

    I may have the grammar structure wrong.

    #378624
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 20 2014,04:25][/quote]

    Quote
    The Father doesn't have flesh.  He has never had flesh.

    Mike,

    YOU SIMPLY KEEP ON MESS UP THINGS, AND YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND SIMPLE ENGLISH!

    REGARDING SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER,I SAID:

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    BUT IT IS ALSO APPROPRIATE THAT SINCE  JESUS DECLARED:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    THEREFORE HE IS NO LONGER IN THAT HUMAN STATE HE WAS RESURRECTED IN,

    BUT ASCENDED INTO BOTH IN THE STATE OF HIS FATHER'S SPIRIT,

    THEREFORE THE FATHER OF ALL THE SPIRITS

    AND ALSO IN THE STATE OF OUR FATHER 'S FLESH WHICH HE ALWAYS OWNED!

    JESUS OWNED THE FLESH NOT GOD ALMIGHTY, I WAS TALKING ABOUT JESUS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY!

    BUT SINCE THROUGH JESUS DEATH, GLORIFIED JESUS'BODY IN  HIS RESURRECTION, BECAME GOD  SPIRIT'S SUBSTANCE WHICH HE INHERITED FROM HIS SOUL, EX HOLY SPIRIT, THROUGH HIS HOLY LIFE!    

    AND ALSO HIS SOUL EX HOLY SPIRIT, GLORIFIED IN JESUS' FLESH BODY, WHICH HE INHERITED FROM JESUS' HOLY LIFE!

    BOTH JESUS CHRIST AS MAN, AND GOD ALMIGHTY AS SPIRIT BECAME ONE GOD MOST ALMIGHTY THEN EVER HAS BEEN

    THROUGH THE UNIFICATION OF JESUS' SOUL THE EX HOLY SPIRIT AND THE WORD THE EX SON'S SPIRIT

    AND THEN I SAID:

    SO HE IS NO LONGER A SON OF GOD,

    BUT

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    THEREFORE THE ONLY FATHER TO HAVE CHILDREN NOT JUST SONS ONLY LIKE GOD ALMIGHTY HAS STILL EVEN NOW!

    SO I REPEAT:

    GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO CHILDREN, BUT ONLY SONS!

    THE REASON THAT THE SONS OF GOD,ANGELS, WENT AFTER THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN!

    ONLY JESUS CHRIST HAS CHILDREN, BOTH SONS AND DAUGHTERS!

    THE ONLY FATHER OF ALL!

    AND THROUGH HIM, SINCE HE INHERITED ALL GOD'S ATTRIBUTES ALSO GOD ALMIGHTY!

    ONLY ON THE LAST DAY GOD ALMIGHTY WOULD BECOME THE FATHER OF ALL!

    BUT FIRST HE HAS TO COME ON EARTH   AS A DAUGHTER OF GOD IN [B] THE WORD AND ERADICATES SATANA'S FEMALE ENTITY, FOR ETERNITY AND WOULD BECOME FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME

    BOTH MALE AND FEMALE GOD

    ALL IN THE WORD

    ALL BY THE WORD

    ALL FOR THE WORD

    Peace and love and Jesus

    Charles

    #378625
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    I can't even begin to fathom what you're talking about in this last part.  I can only say it is both unscriptural and nonsensical to think our Heavenly Father Jehovah has a father of His own.

    Mike,

    CAN YOU FATHOM NOW THAT:

    GOD ALMIGHTY HAS A FATHER OF HIS OWN ENTITY, SUBSTANCE,

    IN JESUS CHRIST BOTH A FATHER OF MEN AND A FATHER OF WOMEN

    AND SINCE YOU ACCEPTED THE FACT THAT JESUS RESURRECTED AS MAN:

    CAN YOU FATHOM WHY JESUS SAID THOSE VITAL WORDS TO MARY MAGDALENE THAT

    HE BECOMES HER FATHER AND HIS FATHER, OBVIOUS

    SINCE SHE WAS A WOMAN, SATAN'S ENTITY, AND HE WAS A MAN ! GOD'S ENTITY!

    AND HER GOD AND  HIS GOD

    SINCE SHE ALSO  AS A WOMAN HAD SATANA AS HER GOD, of the world

    AND HE AS MAN HAD GOD ALMIGHTY AS HIS GOD! of the heavens!

    THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #378634
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2014,04:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,11:24)
    T,

    I believe a better example is I believe Will is a sheep by nature.  The by nature is speaking of Will's sheep like actions.


    In that case, Pierre is right and you are saying it wrong, Kerwin.

    The fact that Will has “sheep like actions” would never cause anyone to say “Will is a sheep by nature”….. because Will is definitely NOT a sheep by nature.

    Neither is Jesus “God by nature”.  Nor are any of us “God by nature” – despite the fact we were created in God's image.

    None of God's many spirit and flesh sons are “God by nature”.


    Mike ……..If you don't have the nature of God “IN” you you are none of His, for it plainly says the love of God shed around in our hearts by him, and also , for God works in us both to WILL and do of “HIS” good Pleasure. God's nature is indeed IN all who have his Spirit abiding IN them. And the are now the Son of the living God, and his nature will be evident in their lives Now.

    How is it you do not understand this Mike? When God said I will take out of them the stony heart (hard heart) and given them a heart of flesh (soft heart) and I will write my Law in their inward Parts , and i shall be their God and they shall be mt people. do you not understand that is a change of Nature that is taking place when God does that.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

    #378639
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene,

    We were talking about BEING God by nature. Not about having the nature of God IN you.

    #378640
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    I don't have the time or patience to respond to the many unscriptural and bizarre claims you made in those last two posts.

    Jesus ascended back to heaven where he now sits at the right hand of his Father and our Father – his God and our God.

    He did not become that Father and God – but sits at the right hand of that Father and God.

    #378646
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 21 2014,02:50][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't have the time or patience to respond to the many unscriptural and bizarre claims you made in those last two posts.

    Mike,

    OK, I EXPECTED SO SINCE YOU DON'T DRINK WINE!

    I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH!

    SO ANSWER THIS!

    ISN'T IT SCRIPTURAL THAT GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO DAUGHTERS!

    ALSO SINCE HE HAS NO DAUGHTERS, ONLY SONS, HOW COULD GOD ALMIGHTY BE:

    THE FATHER OF ALL ? OBVIOUS OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #378651
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 20 2014,10:40)
    ISN'T IT SCRIPTURAL THAT GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO DAUGHTERS!

    ALSO SINCE HE HAS NO DAUGHTERS, ONLY SONS, HOW COULD GOD ALMIGHTY BE:

    THE FATHER OF ALL ? OBVIOUS OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS!


    Charles,

    This is why my patience has run out with you.  Your “points” are always nonsensical, and lead to nothing but empty rabbit holes.

    Are you saying that Jesus DOES have daughters according to scripture, and that's what makes JESUS the “Almighty Father”?  Because JESUS isn't said to have “daughters” or “sisters” in scripture, either.  The scriptures were written from a MALE perspective, and therefore many times the word “sons” is used, when “children” is obviously meant.

    But just to show you your error:

    Malachi 2:10
    Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?

    Was it only the MALE of the human species that was created by God?  If not, then it is not only the MALE of the species who has God as their “one Father”.

    Also:

    Deuteronomy 32:6
    Is this the way you repay the LORD, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

    This one says “people”, not “sons”.  And “people” would include also the female of the species, right?

    So your point that God became man so He could then also be the Father of “daughters” is nonsense, and a waste of my time to discuss.  Your ideas are whack, Charles.  They do not come from scripture.  And I am quite frankly tired of wasting my time on them.

    #378652
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ April 20 2014,22:40)
    [quote=mikeboll64,April 21 2014,02:50][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't have the time or patience to respond to the many unscriptural and bizarre claims you made in those last two posts.

    Mike,

    OK, I EXPECTED SO SINCE YOU DON'T DRINK WINE!

    I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH!

    SO ANSWER THIS!

    ISN'T IT SCRIPTURAL THAT GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO DAUGHTERS!

    ALSO SINCE HE HAS NO DAUGHTERS, ONLY SONS, HOW COULD GOD ALMIGHTY BE:

    THE FATHER OF ALL ? OBVIOUS OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    :D :D easy

    but let Mike answering it for you ,i am even surprise you ask

    #378801
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2014,11:13)

    Quote (jammin @ April 17 2014,07:35)
    mike,

    if you can give me ANY VERSIONS that say in phil 2.6 that Christ was existing in the form of his own father then you can close the case.


    The case has already been closed, jammin.

    It was closed the minute you refused to answer my question about the SECOND “God” in Phil 2:6.

    It was closed the second you were unable to show any other scripture where the word “God” referred to a “species” or “nature”.

    And it was closed the second you admitted that the Father was indeed the God OF Jesus.

    God Almighty does not have a God of His own, jammin.  Therefore, even if you PRETEND that the first “God” in Phil 2:6 refers to a “species”, it would stand to reason that any member of that “species” would not have a God of their own.

    So if the “nature of God” includes “all-powerful” – like you've said in the past – then no one who has the “nature of God” would have their own God – because they would be “all-powerful” all by themselves.

    You've dug yourself into a pit that you can't get out of.  And your refusal to show the scriptures I'm asking for, or answer the questions I'm asking, shows me that you KNOW you're in a pit you can't get out of.

    Like I said, CASE CLOSED.


    it is very clear that you cANT give me any versions that say Christ was existing in the form of his OWN GODF. therefore, it is only your imagination.

    who told you that i did want to answer your question? i said we need to finish first our discussion about “form of God” before i can answer your question. are you a moron mike? do you understand what im saying?

    did not you read my post? you said i was not able to show you scripture that God in phil 2.6 referred to nature. are you really a moron mike? im trying to think the other way but you are giving me reasons to think this way..

    let me post it again.
    Philippians 2:6
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    and there is no problem if the father is his God because the father also called his son “GOD'
    Hebrews 1:8
    New International Version (NIV)

    8 But about the Son he says,

    “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

    i give you verse, you gave me illusions. hahaha

    #378802
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,06:25)
    jammin,

    Your are two different things.

    First you state:

    Quote
    let me post MY COMPLETE STATEMENT

    there is no doubt that the father is his God BUT it does not mean that he is not God by nature because according to phil 2.6 he is

    Then you state:

    Quote
    kerwin – Christ was existing in the form of his own God.

    (no version will support this doctrine)

    It is either one or the other not both.

    As far as I know you are a trinitarian and therefore not of the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles for the one true God.  I know some trinitarians are confused and teach a hybrid of the two.  You seem to be one of their disciples.  

    Jesus existed in the form of his Father and his God.


    give me versions that will support your imagination. you and mike are brothers. hahaha

    no version will says that Christ was existing in the form of his own God. mark my word

    #378803
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2014,04:09)
    [quote]Col 1:15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.NIV


    do you understand english??

    do you know the meaning of the firstborn OVER all creation??

    it does not mean that he is created. it means that he is superior to all creation

    CEV
    Christ is exactly like God,
    who cannot be seen.
    He is the first-born Son,
    superior to all creation.

    #378806
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin……….Do you understand what it means to be “BORN”, that can “only” apply to human beings and the rest of the physical creation, because they are “BORN” and Jesus is say to come into existence by WATER and BLOOD , Just as we were BORN. He is the firstborn from humanity to attain the Goal God has in mind for all humanity. If you do not see Jesus as a Human being you simply do not see Him at all.

    Your Idolatrous view point of Jesus being a God, will only lead you to be rejected, if you do not repent of it. There is only ONE God and it is NOT JESUS. It is the God Jesus worships and calls his Father and our Father , his God and our God.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

    #378808
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 21 2014,19:57)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2014,06:25)
    jammin,

    Your are two different things.

    First you state:

    Quote
    let me post MY COMPLETE STATEMENT

    there is no doubt that the father is his God BUT it does not mean that he is not God by nature because according to phil 2.6 he is

    Then you state:

    Quote
    kerwin – Christ was existing in the form of his own God.

    (no version will support this doctrine)

    It is either one or the other not both.

    As far as I know you are a trinitarian and therefore not of the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles for the one true God.  I know some trinitarians are confused and teach a hybrid of the two.  You seem to be one of their disciples.  

    Jesus existed in the form of his Father and his God.


    give me versions that will support your imagination. you and mike are brothers. hahaha

    no version will says that Christ was existing in the form of his own God. mark my word


    Jammin,

    I am speaking of the teaching of trinitarians and how some like you seem to be confused preaching the Jesus is one of three persons of the Godhead out of one side of their mouth while preaching that Jesus is only a title of the one true God out of the other side.

    Other trinitarian see this as too much to swallow and preach Jesus exists in the form of God the Father.

    You claim to be a trinitarin which faction do you adhere to?

    #378833
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 21 2014,05:35][/quote]

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 32:6
    Is this the way you repay the LORD, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

    Mike,

      WASN'T I CLEAR ENOUGH ?

    HERE IT IS AGAIN:

    ISN'T IT SCRIPTURAL THAT GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO DAUGHTERS!

    UNLESS YOU POST :

    GOD ALMIGHTY HAS DAUGHTERS IT'S USELESS!

    THE TERM LORD GOD DOESN'T ASSERT THAT HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD!

    PAUL SAID : THERE'S ONLY ONE LORD!

    THOMAS SAID: MY LORD AND MY GOD

    SO KEEP ON SEARCHING!

    NOW READ THESE SCRIPTURES:

    And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    ANSWER:

    WHY THE LORD GOD CALLED ISRAEL MY FIRST BORN SON?

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DAUGHTER?

    NOW REGARDING THE PEOPLE

    Romans 9:26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people.
    there they shall be called THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.

    OK MIKE? GOD ONLY CONSIDERS THE SONS HIS PEOPLE! DAUGHTERS ARE NOT INCLUDED!

    TO CLARIFY MIKE, THE WORD PEOPLE FOR GOD SIGNIFIES SONS ONLY

    NOW READ THIS ONE:

    1 Peter 2:WHO IN TIME PAST YOU WERE NOT A PEOPLE:

    THE ABOVE MIKE IS FOR YOU AND ME AS GENTILES!

    but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

    NOW TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND!

    ISRAEL WAS CLASIFIED THE ONLY PEOPLE FOR GOD! AND ONLY AS A FIRST BORN SON! IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU MIKE, SINCE YOU RELY ONLY ON WORLDLY WISDOM BUT I ASK YOU THIS WHAT DOES ISRAEL SIGNIFY SINCE ONLY SONS ARE MENTIONED?

    SO Deuteronomy 32:6 IS DIRECTED ONLY TO ISRAEL!

    THE REST, LIKE YOU AND ME, WERE NOT A PEOPLE, FOR GOD, BUT GENTILES, SATAN'S CREATURES,

    PETER CONFIRMED THIS!

    SO DO NOT POST ANY POST REGARDING PEOPLE,WHICH IS DIRECTED TO ISRAEL!

    More to come regarding the term FATHER!

    CAN YOU SEE YOUR RABBIT HOLES MIKE?

    Quote
    This is why my patience has run out with you.

    I KNOW WHY MIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE AS I SAID YOU ARE IN

    A CUL-DE-SAC SITUATION

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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