John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,381 through 16,400 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #375717
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    The Son of God is Jesus Christ, reborn as God alone's son at the Jordan

    #375718
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 31 2014,18:44)
    Mike b.

    Your word is yours alone Mike.


    Blah, blah, blah, diversion, Wakeup.

    YOU told me that God called the being next to him “O God”.

    Now, if that “being next to him” isn't HIMSELF, then God was calling a DIFFERENT BEING “O God”, right?

    #375720
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,18:50)
    Hi MB,
    The Son of God is Jesus Christ, reborn as God alone's son at the Jordan


    So the “Son” in verse 8 is JESUS CHRIST, right? And his own God, Jehovah, called him “O God”, right?

    Yet you insist there literally exists only ONE God, Nick. So if Jesus isn't that ONE God, how do you explain that he is called “O God” by Jehovah?

    And how do you explain Isaiah 9:6, where Jehovah foretold that Jesus would be called “mighty god”?

    Is this starting to get through to you yet? If Jesus ISN'T actually Jehovah, yet Jehovah Himself has called him a god in at least TWO DIFFERNT scriptures, what does that tell you?

    Does it tell you that you should hide your head in the sand, and keep pretending and preaching that Jesus isn't a god? Or will you finally start speaking ACCORDING TO the very plain scriptures?

    #375726
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You really should not misquote scripture or me
    Scripture says FOR US there is one God

    Are you one of US?

    #375727
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,11:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 31 2014,18:44)
    Mike b.

    Your word is yours alone Mike.


    Blah, blah, blah, diversion, Wakeup.

    YOU told me that God called the being next to him “O God”.

    Now, if that “being next to him” isn't HIMSELF, then God was calling a DIFFERENT BEING “O God”, right?


    MikeB

    Oh Lord have mercy.

    That being as I have said is GOD'S OWN WORD.
    HIS OWN,HIS OWN,HIS OWN.
    The holy spirit is also not another,but God's own spirit.
    God's own Word,and God's own holy spirit.
    They are in God, and of God.

    wakeup.

    #375750
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    :D :laugh: :D

    You guys are funny when you're cornered by the scriptures themselves!

    Nick, Am I misquoting scripture to say that Jehovah called Jesus “O God” in Hebrews 1:8?

    Am I misquoting scripture to say that Jehovah foretold that Jesus would be called “mighty god” in Isaiah 9:6?

    I would like YES or NO answers to both of these questions. You have basically called me a liar, and now you'll have to own those words. If I have misquoted either of those two above, then show me how I did so. If I haven't, then make a very CLEAR apology to me, and answer that last post I made to you.

    Wakeup, is the Holy Spirit of God a completely different living, breathing BEING – like you've said the Word is?

    If not, then please don't compare the two to get out of this corner you're in.

    Now, we agree that God's Word is NEXT TO God Himself. That means God's Word ISN'T actually God Himself – as you've said MANY times, right?

    So, what does it mean that God Himself called this OTHER living, breathing BEING who is NOT God Himself “O God”?

    In other words, how does Jehovah call a DIFFERENT being “god” if there is literally only ONE god?

    #375755
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB
    You claim
    “Yet you insist there literally exists only ONE God, Nick. “

    Where?
    Read the scripture again

    FOR US

    #375768
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 01 2014,11:46][/quote]

    Quote
    So then “The Word” isn't actually “God Himself”, right Charles?

    Mike,

    YOU SAID THAT GOD NEEDS NO ONE! WHICH I AGREE, BUT

    NOW READ WHAT I POSTED FEW PAGES BACK:

    GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR! THE WORD

    NOT CHOOSES TO HAVE A MEDIATOR!

    GOD WAS IN NEED OF A SPIRIT WHICH COULD BE BETWEEN ALL CREATURES NEVER MIND EVIL CREATURES

    ,AND HIM,

    IN ORDER FOR GOD TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE! IN THEM TILL THEY ARE BACK TO THE FATHER!

    SO YES

    SINCE GOD WAS IN NEED OF A MEDIATOR, AND GOD DOESN'T NEED ANY BODY, APART FROM HIMSELF, AND CREATION WAS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT A MEDIATOR,

    BOTH AS A SPIRIT USED IN CREATION

    AND AS MAN TO REDEEM CREATION

    THEREFORE THAT MEDIATOR IS HIMSELF AS THE WORD!

    BUT AS SCRIPTURE SAYS: MEDIATOR IS NOT OF ONE,

    GALATIANS 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one: but God is one.

    BUT GOD IS ONE

    THEREFORE SINCE GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR , AND GOD IS ONE, GOD IS THAT SAME MEDIATOR

    ,BUT AS THE WORD

    AND I GAVE DETAILS REGARDING HOW IS THE FUNCTION OF THE WORD ACHIEVED BY GOD HIMSELF!  

    THIS IS SCRIPTURE MIKE, WHICH DECLARES THAT GOD IS THAT SAME MEDIATOR,

    HIS SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, FIRST CREATED ALL  CREATION,

    AND THAN AS THE WORD MADE FLESH,JESUS CHRIST,  REDEEMED CREATION!

    SO THAT'S THE ONLY REASON THAT GOD NEVER NEEDED ANY BODY! BECAUSE HE IS

    OMNIPOTENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OMNISCIENCE, AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE!

    SO HE CAN BE IN HIMSELF! IN A SPIRIT OF HIS OWN SELF!

    THE WORD   AND  JESUS CHRIST!

    SO ON HIS RIGHT HAND! HE IS NEXT TO HIMSELF AS

    THE ONLY MEDIATOR UP TO NOW!

    ON THE LAST DAY GOD WOULD OWN  THAT SAME BEING FOR ETERNITY!

    AND THAT SAME BEING WOULD BE THE ENTIRE CREATION, GOD'S KINGDOM!

    THEREFORE:

    THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD!

    NOW WHAT IS A BEING WITHOUT A HEAD CALLED?

    AND WHAT IS A HEAD WITHOUT A BODY CALLED ?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    #375772
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    That's about it.Good one.
    The Word of God is a mediator between God and man.
    On earth He was named Jesus,and in heaven He is named The word of God.

    We still have a mediator now: its called the Word of God
    in print,but the spirit is there. Without the Holy bible we can not come to God.

    Take away the Holy bible and we are lost.

    wakeup.

    #375773
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,11:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 31 2014,18:44)
    Mike b.

    Your word is yours alone Mike.


    Blah, blah, blah, diversion, Wakeup.

    YOU told me that God called the being next to him “O God”.

    Now, if that “being next to him” isn't HIMSELF, then God was calling a DIFFERENT BEING “O God”, right?


    Mike B.

    Yes for it is written.
    Let all worship Him,all the creatures in heaven,in the sea and on the earth.
    He is worshipped;also by the angels.Therefore He is God. God's own word; God's own Word;God's own Word.
    You have the Word: You also have God.
    You can not worship God, and not worship His Word.
    Or worship His Word and not worship God.

    Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power,
    ***be unto him that sitteth upon the throne,***
    ***AND UNTO THE LAMB for ever and ever***.

    I know you will not worship the lamb,because he is just a spokesman;just a servant crucified for us.
    Another God. A man; glorified into a god.
    He has done his job; now ready to be put in a corner, or put in the waste basket.

    This is so sad.There are many like you.Lord have mercy.

    wakeup.

    wakeup.

    #375775
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 31 2014,18:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2014,03:00)

    Jammin,

    It is broken because it is full of contradictions.  No matter how trinitarians try to explain it the cannot justify God being tempted like us under any circumstances.

    Their attempt to justify it by claiming Jesus is 100% man at the same time he is 100% God is a malicious joke.  That claim is broken because anyone knows a creature cannot be 100% human and 100% canine at the same time.  In other words it must be excepted on blind faith sin “human” wisdom declares it a broken doctrine.

    The claim that “human” wisdom could not comprehend the Sadducee doctrine there is no resurrection of the dead when Jesus use implications of a Scriptural passage to prove otherwise.  David Koresh could have used it to answer those that declared his doctrine that he could have sex with the wives of other men was not Scriptural.  It is a fallback position of a flawed teaching.


    there was no contradictions to the doctrine that i have posted here. you only create confusions.

    Christ is the Word of God john 1.1

    rev 19.13

    do you see contradictions there? i dont think so. but because you have the doctrine of men, you will think that they do have contradictions.

    you do not know how to understand the context of the bible.

    this topic should be closed. it is more than 1000 pages and it is very clear that Christ is the Word of God in john 1.1

    it is a title of Christ. he is the Word of God and he has the same nature just like his father. he is God.


    Jammin.

    I see the reasoning is flawed as the conclusion does not follow from the premises.  

    In math it is like saying x=1 at an earlier period of time based on the fact x=1 at a later period of time. There is always the chance the value of x was changed to 1 at some between the two periods of time.

    It is not a contradiction though you do not have enough evidence to support your conclusion.

    You error a second time by trying to use your poorly reasoned conclusion to unintentionally imply Scripture is broken and so it is useless to try to test it by reason.

    #375777
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,10:08)
    Hi KW,
    Only grace can make us sons of God in and alike to Jesus.


    Nick,

    Yes, that is true though you can also say it other ways.

    God's grace, God's grace, pretty much the same thing.

    #375828
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,April 01 2014,18:16][/quote]

    Quote
    We still have a mediator now: its called the Word of God
    in print,but the spirit is there. Without the Holy bible we can not come to God.

    Wakeup,

    Take away the Holy bible and we are lost.  100% RIGHT!

    BUT

    NO! it is not CALLED the word of God! in print only, BUT ALSO

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    THE WORD AS A MEDIATOR LEFT THE FATHER

    THE WORD  AS A MEDIATOR CREATED ALL

    THE WORD  CREATED MARY  BY BEING  HER SOUL

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH! JESUS' BODY, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH MARY,AS JESUS' SOUL

    THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS' SOUL, EX HOLY SPIRIT, GLORIFIED FIRST AND ACQUIRED JESUS' BODY IN THE SAME INSTANT JESUS DIED HIS DEATH, WENT TO HELL AND PREACHED THE GOSPEL!

    THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS' BODY, AFTER THREE DAYS GLORIFIED AND RESTORED HIS OWN BODY AND RESURRECTED!

    THEN THE WORD MADE FLESH  JESUS' SOUL

    AND

    THE WORD MADE FLESH JESUS' BODY

    INTEGRATED AND BECAME ONE SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY BOTH GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    CAN YOU GET THIS INTO YOUR MINDS ALL OF YOU ON HEAVEN NET?

    THEREFORE THE STORY OF THE WORD IS FINISHED, IT HAS ACCOMPLISHED ITS WORK FOR ETERNITY!

    AND BECAME:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, OUR MEDIATOR, AND HE IS IN FULL COMMAND OF THE UNIVERSES,ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!

    IT IS STILL PROSPERING TILL ALL CREATURES NO MATTER WHO RETURN TO THE FATHER!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #375853
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    Quote
    THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS' SOUL, EX HOLY SPIRIT, GLORIFIED FIRST AND ACQUIRED JESUS' BODY IN THE SAME INSTANT JESUS DIED HIS DEATH, WENT TO HELL AND PREACHED THE GOSPEL!

    If jesus went to hell and preached the gospel;in that instant,
    then he is not really dead, is He?
    Scripture says that He was resurrected the third day,
    not before. After His resurrection; He went and preached
    to the angels in prison.

    wakeup.

    #375854
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,
    1peter 3

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    #375859
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,20:18)
    Hi MB
    You claim
    “Yet you insist there literally exists only ONE God, Nick. “

    Where?
    Read the scripture again

    FOR US


    Oh, I see. So then you agree that, LITERALLY SPEAKING, there are indeed other gods besides Jehovah, right?

    A “YES” or “NO” will suffice.

    #375862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    1cor 8
    As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

    5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    #375864
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 01 2014,00:50)
    GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR! THE WORD

    NOT CHOOSES TO HAVE A MEDIATOR!


    Charles,

    Your claim is that because God NEEDED to talk to His creations, He NEEDED a mediator to do so.

    But God has no NEED to talk to any of us. He might CHOOSE to do so, but He surely doesn't NEED to. It's not like God will die if He doesn't talk to a human being, right?

    So once again, God doesn't NEED anyone or anything. Are we clear on that?

    Secondly, if God wanted to talk to any of us directly, He can. So once again, God doesn't NEED a mediator to go between us and Him. Instead, God CHOSE to place a mediator between us and Him.

    Don't confuse CHOICE with NEED, Charles.

    And thirdly – back to the point of my last post to you:

    Since God CHOSE not to talk to us directly, and CHOSE to use a mediator to go between Him and us, it is clear that the mediator that goes BETWEEN God and human beings is not the very God he mediates between.

    So you are correct that the mediator is the Word. But you are incorrect that this mediator actually IS the very God he makes intercession on our behalf to.

    #375866
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ April 01 2014,01:40)
    Let all worship Him,all the creatures in heaven,in the sea and on the earth.

    He is worshipped;also by the angels.


    Wakeup,

    There are no Greek or Hebrew scriptures that speak about worshipping the servant of God, Jesus Christ.  There are bad, Trinitarian-biased TRANSLATIONS of those scriptures that say that – but no actual scripture says it.

    Jesus himself told us who to worship, Wakeup.  And Jesus told us that he himself also worships that same One.

    Quote (Wakeup @ April 01 2014,01:40)
    Therefore He is God. God's own word; God's own Word;God's own Word.


    Eddy, are you paying attention?  :)  

    Here you go again, Wakeup.  You continue to claim that the Word IS God, but then throw a hissy fit if I ever bring up your belief that the Word IS God.  You tell me that you NEVER said the Word IS God, but have always maintained that the Word is OF God, and NOT God Himself.

    But look at your own words above……. the ones I supersized.  What do they say, Wakeup?

    Like I told Ed, you talk out of both sides of your mouth.

    So I want a CLEAR and CONCISE answer – one that you are going to STICK WITH from here on out……….. Is the Word of God OF God – or is the Word of God God Himself?

    He cannot be both “God” and “OF God”, Wakeup.  So which one of those two things is he?

    #375867
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,16:28)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,20:18)
    Hi MB
    You claim
    “Yet you insist there literally exists only ONE God, Nick. “

    Where?
    Read the scripture again

    FOR US


    Oh, I see.  So then you agree that, LITERALLY SPEAKING, there are indeed other gods besides Jehovah, right?

    A “YES” or “NO” will suffice.


    Nick,

    You either agree that there LITERALLY exists only ONE god, period…….. or you agree that, LITERALLY SPEAKING, there exist other gods.

    Which one is it?

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