John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,041 through 16,060 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #374050
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You say God is in you.
    You agree God was in Christ?

    All of this is by the Spirit.

    So Christ and his brothers can be with God without the odd conclusion you reach?[God with God]

    #374053
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2014,14:33)
    Hi MB,
    You say God is in you.
    You agree God was in Christ?

    All of this is by the Spirit.

    So Christ and his brothers can be with God without the odd conclusion you reach?[God with God]


    Nick

    You need to see this. God was really in Christ's DNA.

    #374055
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi J42,
    Of course Jesus had half his DNA from his Father.
    The other half from Mary.

    His spiritual sonship was of the Spirit at the Jordan

    #374065
    journey42
    Participant

    [quote=Nick Hassan,Mar. 19 2014,15:04][/quote]

    Quote
    Hi J42,
    Of course Jesus had half his DNA from his Father.
    The other half from Mary.


    Nick

    It's truly amazing and not talked about enough.
    Even now, the proof of Jesus' existence is being proven.

    Quote
    His spiritual sonship was of the Spirit at the Jordan

    John 1:32   And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    John 1:33   And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the saime is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    John 1:34   And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    This was only a sign for John to recognise who Jesus was, as he did not know him.
    Jesus “spiritual sonship” as you say (not in scripture, unusual term – correct me if I'm wrong)
    happened way before the Jordan,
    …at his conception,
    and I'm not even sure if it's correct to say Jesus holds a  “spiritual sonship”
    because he was made flesh, and therefore became an “earthly son”
    but worshipped in the spirit.

    We christians hold a “spiritual sonship”,
    because we believe only,
    and are adopted into the family spiritually.

    #374070
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi J42,
    In that case Mary has equal rights to parenthood.

    We follow him but cannot do so if his sonship is to Mary

    #374074
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2014,12:09)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 18 2014,07:55)
    my point is they are all…….

    1.  not all knowing,

    2.  not all powerful,

    3.  not everywhere,

    4.  not eternal etc,.

    5.  they are not God by nature.

    6.  they are HUMANS! do you understand? and human by nature has limitations.


    And my point is that:

    1.  JESUS is not “all knowing”.  

    2.  JESUS is not “all powerful”.

    3.  There is no scripture that says God is “everywhere at the same time”, let alone Jesus.

    4.  Many of us WILL ALSO BE “eternal” – which won't make us “God”.  We will be GIVEN eternal life, just as God GAVE eternal life to His prophet Jesus Christ.

    5.  Jesus is never said to be “God by nature” either.

    6.  Jesus also has limitations – to this very day.


    jesus became like us. you should know that.

    God is everywhere and there is a verse for that. do not fool people.
    your doctrine is from JW, a cult church.

    you have no nature of God. no verse that says HUMANS have nature of God. make your own version. hahaha

    Jesus is God by nature.

    before he became like, he was in the nature of God.

    Philippians 2:6
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

    #374075
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2014,11:49)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 18 2014,07:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2014,11:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,07:47)
    elijah, david and goliath or whatever, all of them have LIMITATION


    Jesus also had limitations, jammin.  He still does today – even in his exalted state.  That's why he sits at the right hand of his and our God Jehovah, and waits for Jehovah to place his enemies at his feet, so he can then destroy those enemies.

    That's why, even in heaven, Jesus still calls Jehovah “my God”.


    that is when he became human.

    that is why paul told in phil 2.7 he became like us.


    Okay jammin,

    But in order for you to say that to me, you must believe two things:

    1.  Jesus WASN'T actually God when he was on earth, since he had limitations as a human.

    2.  Jesus is STILL not God in heaven, since he STILL has limitations.

    Which of those things do you believe?


    he is God.

    thomas said that

    john 20.28
    John 20:28
    The Voice (VOICE)

    Thomas (filled with emotion): 28 You are the one True God and Lord of my life.

    sorry boy but you have to study more

    #374076
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2014,12:01)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 18 2014,07:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2014,11:53)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,07:52)
    mike,

    do not fool people. what verse does it say that solomon is omniscient?
    you mean since the beginning of his existence here on earth, HE KNOWS EVERYTHING? YES OR NO?

    give me one boy. stop fooling people.


    I couldn't find the one about Solomon, but in 2 Samuel 14:20, David is said to have the wisdom of an angel of God, and to know all things on the earth.

    My point was that sharing a nature doesn't make us equal in every way.

    And things like “knowledge” are not part of the nature we share.  For example, David had much more knowledge than the rest of the humans alive at that time.  And Solomon was even wiser than David.

    But just because those two knew a lot doesn't mean everybody with human nature knows as much as they did.

    So while Jehovah might be omniscient, it doesn't mean that everyone who shares His nature also knows everything Jehovah knows.


    therefore no verse that says solomon is all knowing. hahaha

    and for your 2 sam 14.20, it does not mean that he is omniscient. it talks about all political things!


    Quote
    therefore no verse that says solomon is all knowing. hahaha


    I didn't say that.  I said I didn't find the Solomon verse, so posted the David one.  In other words, after finding the David verse, I stopped looking for the Solomon verse, since the David verse makes my point just as well.

    Quote
    and for your 2 sam 14.20, it does not mean that he is omniscient. it talks about all political things!


    The Hebrew words say “you know ALL things concerning the earth”.

    And the point is that both David and Solomon knew more than the majority of those other humans who lived among them.  Yet they all shared the same human nature, right?

    So sharing a nature DOESN'T mean “equal knowledge”.

    So the fact that Jehovah is omniscient DOESN'T mean that anyone else who shares His spirit nature is also omniscient.

    Your claim was already baseless before the scripture I showed you.  Now you should be able to SEE that it was baseless.


    you said david is all knowing. he is omniscient,correct?
    your verse does not say that.

    my question is
    1 cr 14.10
    New International Version
    so David inquired of God: “Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands?” The LORD answered him, “Go, I will deliver them into your hands.”

    according to the verse, is david all knowing (omnsicient)? yes or no?

    #374077
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2014,03:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 18 2014,19:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2014,12:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,19:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2014,09:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:01)
    kerwin,

    divine nature is not the ONLY nature of God. do you understand? if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    Jammin,

    Thank you for answering my question.

    Do your think “image of God” and “form of God” mean the same thing?


    Jammin,

    I bumped this because somehow my words got confused and I corrected them.  Please answer.  Thank you.


    gen 1.27 and phil 2.6 are not the same

    therefore, image of God is not the same as Form of God.


    Jammin,

    Since image and form have equivalent meaning you should flush out your argument instead of basing it truth on your own authority.


    what are you talking about? dont you understand my post? hahaha

    i told gen 1.26-27 has nothing to do with phil 2.6

    they are not the same! make your own bible hahaha and put image in phil 2.6


    Jammin,

    My point is you do not use English correctly in your post since you claim image and form do not mean the same thing.  I was also given you a chance to explain what appears to be nonsense.


    they are not the same boy. why? because you do not how to understand english well. i know that form has a synonym of image BUT if we are going to read the context of gen 1.26-27 and phil 2.6, they are not the same.

    why? bec gen 1.27- speaks only about righteousness and holiness. eph 4.24

    but phil 2.6 speaks about the nature of God. do you understand>? i know you dont bec you do not know how to understand the context and the right way of understanding sentences.

    #374078
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    if you insist, then give me a single version of gen 1.26 that says nature God. can you give me one or not?

    #374079
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2014,11:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2014,05:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2014,12:02)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2014,09:36)
    Mike i do not worship the commandments as my God…………


    Why not, Gene?  

    You say the words/commandments/curses/instructions of God ARE God, right?

    Aren't we supposed to worship “God”?

    So if His words ARE Him, then we should worship His words, right?


    Mike………What i said was Gods word are part of him because they are from him…….


    No Gene,

    You actually said (many times) that the Word of God IS God, because a person IS his word, and vice-versa.  

    So using that reasoning, the command/utterance/instruction/curse of God actually IS God Himself.

    And if it IS God, then we should worship it.

    If, on the other hand, the utterance God speaks is NOT actually God Himself, then the translation “and the Word was God is flawed.


    Mike…….NO, what i said was God and His words are one and the same “Just” (or, as in the same way) you and “YOUR WORDS” are one and the same. “Why” because your words come from your “MIND”, they are connected to YOU “ONLY”. So it is with the LORD Yahweh “OUR GOD”, His Words. are connected to his Mind, So he and his words are ONE and the same.

    Your are the one saying You and your words are different from each other , Not ME Mike, You said your word were not you, but never said who your words are. Please enlighten us, tell us Mike who your words are if not you.

    You need to seperated God from his words in order for you false teachings of the words of John 1:1 to make Jesus, Gods words. He is Not God Words , He spoke Gods word to us, Not HIS WORDS, Just as he said   “the words I am telling you are not “MY” words, but the Words of Him who sent Me”.

    So how does that scripture fit your false teachings Mike. Seem Jesus doesn't think He is God's words , Just you and all Trinitarinas and Preexistence's do.

    Mike why can't you understand you are doing exactly what Satan want you to do, Move Jesus' Identity away from His Human brothers and sisters. Your playing right into his hands Mike, rather you can see it or not , If you do not see Jesus, as a Human from Human Kind you simply do not see Jesus, and you can not Identify with him properly. IMO

    Jesus was a son of God in exactly way we can be , by the infusion of HOLY Spirit which he received when he was Baptized in the Jordan. Nothing took place in his life as far as his ministry goes until he was baptized at the Jordan, and then straightway the Spirit led him into the Wilderness to be tested.
    why did this not take place before he was Baptized? Because he had not received the Holy Spirit till them, he was not born with it, he received it at the Jordan river.  

    Peace and love to your and yours………………………….gene

    #374080
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2014,10:04)
    Hi J42,
    Of course Jesus had half his DNA from his Father.
    The other half from Mary.

    His spiritual sonship was of the Spirit at the Jordan


    Nick,

    DNA is a bodily thing and Scripture declares Jesus was the Son of David, as of the body, Romans 1:2. Journey's understanding is based on a flawed verse from a manuscript that the KJV uses, Acts 20:28. Even then it can be interpreted different.

    #374081
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 19 2014,19:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2014,03:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 18 2014,19:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2014,12:28)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,19:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2014,09:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:01)
    kerwin,

    divine nature is not the ONLY nature of God. do you understand? if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    Jammin,

    Thank you for answering my question.

    Do your think “image of God” and “form of God” mean the same thing?


    Jammin,

    I bumped this because somehow my words got confused and I corrected them.  Please answer.  Thank you.


    gen 1.27 and phil 2.6 are not the same

    therefore, image of God is not the same as Form of God.


    Jammin,

    Since image and form have equivalent meaning you should flush out your argument instead of basing it truth on your own authority.


    what are you talking about? dont you understand my post? hahaha

    i told gen 1.26-27 has nothing to do with phil 2.6

    they are not the same! make your own bible hahaha and put image in phil 2.6


    Jammin,

    My point is you do not use English correctly in your post since you claim image and form do not mean the same thing.  I was also given you a chance to explain what appears to be nonsense.


    they are not the same boy. why? because you do not how to understand english well. i know that form has a synonym of image BUT if we are going to read the context of gen 1.26-27 and phil 2.6, they are not the same.

    why? bec gen 1.27- speaks only about righteousness and holiness. eph 4.24

    but phil 2.6 speaks about the nature of God. do you understand>? i know you dont bec you do not know how to understand the context and the right way of understanding sentences.


    Jammin,

    That is a better quality answer that the first one you gave me.  

    You claim that Genesis 1.27 is speaking only about righteousness but if you read it you will find it speaks of things that set man above the animals as well.  In fact it speaks of how man was made in Jehovah's Spiritual image.  Those things do not change your point.

    You claim that Philippians 2:6 speaks about the nature of God though that is only the religious opinion of some translators and not what it literally states.

    According to the AV of the KJV Philippians 2:6 is part of a huge sentence that begins at verse 5 and goes to verse 8.  The topic of the sentence is having the mind of Christ.  Verses 6-8 is using Jesus as an example of having the mind of Christ.  Verses 6-7 sets up the ideas of having the form of God and taking on the form of a servant.  Form is clearly used in the same sense in both instances.  Since the whole is to show us what it means to have the mind of Christ then it seems rational that Paul's example would start out ” who, being in the mind of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the mind of a servant,…”

    In short Philippians 2:6 teaches us Jesus performed an action because he had the form of the mind of God and verse 5 is telling us to follow him.

    #374089
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    It makes perfect sense to me that Jesus had to take on flesh to be sacrificed, and also so he could become a better mediator between us and his God due to knowing first hand the trials and tribulations we go through as a species.

    MIke,

    AS ALWAYS:

    YOUR WORLDLY WISDOM WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO SEE GOD'S WISDOM, NOT ONLY THAT BUT IN THIS CASE IT DIDN'T PERMIT YOU TO SEE WHAT YOU ALWAYS PRETEND AND BELIEVE, TO KNOW,AND TO SEE!

    IN THIS CASE, IT IS WELL SAID BY JESUS IN:

    Luke 8:18Take heed therefore

    HOW YOU HEAR. DIDN’T HEAR WHAT I STATED?

    For whosoever hath, to him shall be given: and whosoever hath not,

    THAT ALSO WHICH HE THINKS HE HAS, SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM!

    AND THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU MIKE!

    SO, READ WHAT I SAID AGAIN:

    WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS BORN WE ALL BELIEVE THAT HE WAS PERFECT!

    BUT TO PROVE THAT HE WAS PERFECT HE OPTED TO BE IMPERFECT!

    SO AGAIN WHEN HE WAS BORN, MIKE?

    WHEN HE CAME FORTH FROM WHAT  WE ALWAYS BELIEVED A WOMAN !  BUT FOR SURE, SHE WAS THROUGHOUT HER EXISTENCE A VIRGIN

    CHEW MIKE! OR ELSE YOU GET CHOKED!

    NOW READ,  THE SCRIPTURE  2 SAMUEL 7:12 :15, AT THE BOTTOM, AND ANSWER

    BUT BEFORE YOU DO THAT:

    KEEP IN MIND TO REJECT WORLDLY WISDOM, AND TOTALLY RELY AND PRAY YOUR god, SINCE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN PRAYING TO

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    PERHAPS, YOUR god, WOULD GET THE GO AHEAD FROM THE ONLY GOD IN COMMAND JESUS CHRIST, AND HE GIVES YOU SOME LIGHT,

    AS IT IS ALSO WELL DECLARED BY JESUS IN:

    John 14:13 Because I go to the Father: and  

    WHATSOEVER YOU SHALL ASK THE FATHER

    ( NOTICE THE EMPHASIS: NOT MY FATHER, BUT THE FATHER A REFERENCE TO HIM)

    IN MY NAME, OK MIKE? NOT IN THE FATHER'S NAME, NEITHER IN GOD'S NAME! IN JESUS CHRIST'S NAME

    what kind of limitations Jesus has Mike? tell me!

    SO THERE'S NO NEED TO MENTION THE WORD GOD! OTHERWISE SATAN COULD BE IN A POSITION TO CLAIM THAT WE WOULD IN FACT BE ASKING HIM, SINCE HE CONSIDER HIMSELF THE god OF THE WORLD!

    SO FORGET THE TITLE GOD AND JUST ASK JESUS CHRIST OK?

    THEN JESUS CONFIRMS HIS ETERNAL SUPERIORITY AND SAID:

    :THAT I WILL DO NOT THE FATHER DOES! OK MIKE?  OBVIOUS IN ABSOLUTE COMMAND!

    SO FOR SURE!

    GO AHEAD PRAY TO THE FATHER, BUT IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE IGNORED BY YOUR god !

    that the Father AGAIN NOT MY FATHER , [/b] THREE TIMES HE SAID THE FATHER MIKE,

    SO HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS THE FATHER SO IF A PERSON WOULD REMAIN BLIND, HE WOULD GET WHAT HE SHOULD DESERVE FOR REJECTING JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONLY FATHER OF ALL THE REDEEMED!

    THEN CONCLUDED AND SAID:

    may be glorified in the Son.

    GOT IT! THE FATHER  WOULD BE GLORIFIED IN THE SON!

    I WONDER HOW GOD THE FATHER BE GLORIFIED IN SOMEBODY THAT HAS LIMITATIONS LIKE YOU ARE STATING! MR. NONSENSICAL god!

    NOTICE THIS VERSE NOW:

    14 If you shall ASK ME any thing in MY NAME, that I will do.

    Ooooooooo WHAT LIMITATIONS JESUS HAS!  THIS TIME HE SAID THAT WHEN YOU ASK JESUS SOMETHING IN HIS OWN NAME, HE SIMPLY EXECUTE IT STRAIGHT AWAY GOT IT MIKE?

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FATHER MIKE? WHY NOT JESUS ASKS THE FATHER? WHETHER HE COULD DO IT OR NOT?

    SO IN ORDER TO DISCERN SOME TRUTH IN BLACK ON WHITE,

    WHY DON'T YOU ASK

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST DIRECTLY TO GIVE YOU SOME LIGHT, THE SHORTEST WAY OUT, INSTEAD OF ASKING THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER GOES TO JESUS, AND THEN JESUS GIVES YOU LIGHT?

    SO READ AND ANSWER!

    NO! NO! YOU WON'T! THIS IS NOT YOUR STUFF!

    BUT STILL:

    WHAT INIQUITY JESUS WAS IN

    [b] WHEN HE WAS BORN ? Mike!

    THAT HE DESERVED THIS FROM THE FATHER:

    2 Samuel 7:12……………. I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

    13He shall build a house to my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

    14I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son:

    AND IF HE COMMIT ANY INIQUITY ,

    I will correct him with the ROD OF MEN, and with the STRIPES OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN. 15But MY MERCY I WILL NOT TAKE AWAY FROM HIM ,………………..

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374090
    carmel
    Participant

    [/quote]

    Quote
    So in your mind, “the Father God” was WITH “the Father God” in the beginning?

    Mike,

    YOU SAID THE FATHER!

    I MEANT GOD

    AND GOD IS NOT JUST THE FATHER! FOR ALL OF US WHO BELIEVE IN A TRIUNE GOD!

    THE REASON THAT JOHN NEVER USED THE TERM FATHER!

    BUT THE TERM GOD!

    AND THE WORD IS THE SON!

    AND THE SON IS ALSO GOD, LIKE ALSO THE HOLY SPIRIT IS!

    SO I REPEAT:

    YES GOD IN JOHN 1:1 IS THE SAME GOD, BUT IN A DIFFERENT PARTICULAR FUNCTION

    THAT'S WHY IT IS ENTITLED THE WORD:

    ALSO:

    THE FATHER IS NOT THE SON, AND VICE VERSA

    AND

    NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE FATHER  BUT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374096
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Do you doubt the parentage of Jesus by God?
    He was son of David via adoption by Joseph

    #374098
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    are you telling me that paul lied when he said that explanation about gen 1.27 in ep 4.24?

    i believe paul and not you. you should go back to school and study english and how to understand the sentence well

    #374099
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 18 2014,12:10][/quote]

    Quote
    And unless the caterpillar in your example can be WITH the very butterfly he will one day become, your analogy doesn't work.

    Mike,

    WHO SAID THAT THE CATERPILLAR, WITHIN HIM IN HIS BOSOM, IN HIS ENTIRE EXISTENCE HASN'T GOT ALL HIS GENUINE ELEMENTS, WHICH EVENTUALLY THROUGH THEM WHEN IT IS TIME IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO FUNCTION AS THE BUTTERFLY?

    IN THE SAME SENSE THE FATHER ALSO WAS IN RELATION WITH HIS SON !  

    WHO SAID THAT THE BUTTERFLY, WITHIN HIMSELF HASN'T GOT ALL THE GENUINE ELEMENTS WHICH ORIGINALLY, HE HIMSELF HAD WHEN HE FUNCTIONED AS A CATERPILLAR?

    IN THE SAME SENSE THE SON ALSO WAS IN RELATION WITH HIS FATHER

    WHO SAID THAT THE CATERPILLAR IS NOT ALSO  HIS OWN BUTTERFLY  IN EVERY SENSE SIMPLY IN A DIFFERENT GLORY TOGETHER!

    IN THE SAME SENSE ARE ALSO BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, IN ONE GLORY TOGETHER!

    ALSO THE BUTTERFLY, AT THE END, IS TRULY SUPERIOR THAN THE CATERPILLAR, SINCE THROUGH HIM ALSO NATURE  FLOURISHES!

    WHICH IN THE SAME SENSE, THE SON IS ALSO SUPERIOR AT THE END , SINCE GOD WOULD OWN HIS SON'S KINGDOM AND ETERNALLY WOULD BE:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #374108
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2014,21:33)
    Hi MB,
    You say God is in you.
    You agree God was in Christ?

    All of this is by the Spirit.

    So Christ and his brothers can be with God without the odd conclusion you reach?[God with God]


    The “God can be with God” conclusion is the one YOU reach, Nick.  I have never reached the conclusion that “God” can be WITH “God”.

    Christ can be with God, because Christ isn't God.

    Christ's brothers can be with God, because they aren't God either.

    God can be in me, you, or Christ without ever being WITH Himself.

    So I'm still failing to see what point you're trying to make, or how it allows for a teaching that “the Father” was WITH “the Father” in the beginning.

    #374109
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2014,22:04)
    Hi J42,
    Of course Jesus had half his DNA from his Father.
    The other half from Mary.

    His spiritual sonship was of the Spirit at the Jordan


    That's an interesting point, Nick. You are forever telling us that God begot His Son at the Jordan River……. at the time of Jesus' baptism.

    But Jesus was “half God's DNA” from conception in Mary, right? So wouldn't that mean that God LITERALLY begot His LITERAL Son Jesus at the time Mary gave birth to Jesus?

    In other words, wasn't Jesus already God's “REAL” Son long before he was baptized?

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