John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,001 through 16,020 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #373865
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2014,21:42)
    Hi MB,
    One God in jn1.
    But you seem to have no understanding of how God manifests as His Spirit.


    Now, you say there is only ONE God in John 1:1.

    Is that ONE God “the Father”?  It must be, right?  Because what other “God” would it be?

    So in your understanding, 1:1b tells us that the Word was WITH the Father, and 1:1c tells us that the Word WAS the Father.

    Therefore, you understand John to be saying that “the Father” was WITH “the Father” in the beginning.

    And that means that it was also “the Father” who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of the only begotten FROM the Father.

    Hmmmm………….

    #373874
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Yes the Father Who is spirit.
    No that is your simplistic understanding.

    The Spirit cannot fit in your logic

    #373883
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2014,14:21][/quote]

    Quote
    Do you know of another “God” besides “the Father”?  YES or NO?

    Mike,

    YES , I KNOW OF

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    THE FATHER IS ONLY A SPIRIT YET AND NOT AS POWERFUL AS JESUS IS NOW!

    TILL THE FATHER ACCOMPLISH HIS TASK OF PUTTING JESUS' ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373890
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 17 2014,18:58)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2014,14:21][/quote]

    Quote
    Do you know of another “God” besides “the Father”?  YES or NO?

    Mike,

    YES , I KNOW OF

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    THE FATHER IS ONLY A SPIRIT YET AND NOT AS POWERFUL AS JESUS IS NOW!

    TILL THE FATHER ACCOMPLISH HIS TASK OF PUTTING JESUS' ENEMIES AS HIS FOOTSTOOL

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    What are you saying?

    Jesus depends on God.
    Are you less powerful than your word?
    Does your word tell you what to say?
    Is your mind not in control of what you say?

    wakeup.

    #373894
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2014,09:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:01)
    kerwin,

    divine nature is not the ONLY nature of God. do you understand? if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    Jammin,

    Thank you for answering my question.

    Do your think “image of God” and “form of God” mean the same thing?


    Jammin,

    I bumped this because somehow my words got confused and I corrected them.  Please answer.  Thank you.


    gen 1.27 and phil 2.6 are not the same

    therefore, image of God is not the same as Form of God.

    #373895
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2014,03:42)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,17:01)
    kerwin,

    if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    That's like saying if you have human nature, then you should automatically be a mighty warrior like David or Goliath.

    Or that you should automatically be taken up to heaven in a whirlwind like Elijah – just because you and Elijah shared a human nature.

    Solomon was said to have “known all things” concerning the earth.  He had human nature.  Does that mean that EVERYBODY who has human nature “knows all things”?  Of course not.

    You need to think these things out, jammin.


    elijah, david and goliath or whatever, all of them have LIMITATION.

    do you understand what i mean? the nature of man is not almighty, not all knowing, not everywhere or to make it short, they have limitations.

    but if you have the nature of God, that means you are unique, eternal, almighty, everywhere etc.

    do you now understand? or maybe you are trying to pretend that you dont see what is written? hahahah

    study hard boy

    #373896
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    do not fool people. what verse does it say that solomon is omniscient?
    you mean since the beginning of his existence here on earth, HE KNOWS EVERYTHING? YES OR NO?

    give me one boy. stop fooling people.

    #373897
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2014,03:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,17:35)
    kerwin and mike,

    if you accept that you have the nature of God, then you will become almighty, all powerful, all knowing, unique, omnipresence etc someday. hahahhaha

    what a funny doctrine you have


    jammin,

    God's nature includes “eternal”.  We will share that part of His nature.  God's nature includes “spirit being”.  We will also share that part of God's nature.  God's nature includes “divine”.  We will also share that part of God's nature.

    But like I showed you in my last post, being a “divine, eternal spirit being” will not EQUATE us with the most powerful and wise “divine, eternal spirit being” – just like sharing a nature with King David doesn't mean we are all mighty warriors, anointed with the Spirit, and kings of a nation.

    Will you tell me that I don't share David's human nature just because I'm not as powerful or wise as he was?

    If not, then you can't tell me I won't share God's nature just because I won't be as powerful and wise as God is.


    then if that is your belief, you will be almighty someday just like God. hahahha

    mike is ominiscient
    mike is ominpotent
    mike is everywhere
    mike is unique
    mike is GOD hahaha

    what a funny doctrine you have mike.

    #373898
    jammin
    Participant

    you and david have the same nature mike. david is not ALMIGHTY. he is not God. you are also not God.

    #373900
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2014,14:33)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2014,20:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2014,04:26)
    Nick, jammin, Gene, and all:

    We all seem to agree that the “God” in John 1:1b (the Word was with “God”) is “the Father”.

    But is the “God” in 1:1c (the Word was “God”) also “the Father”?

    YES or NO?


    Mike……. GOD and his word is the same thing…….

    YES,  God and his words are one from the same being.


    I'll take that as, “YES Mike.  I believe the Word of God WAS the Father.
    bec
    So then you must bthe Father” is the one who ame flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's onlelieve that “y begotten Son, right?

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2014,20:55)
    What you are doing is like this…..IN the beginning, The heart was with the man , and the heart was someone different then  the man.


    And what YOU are doing is like this:

    In the beginning was the heart.  And the heart was WITH God, and the heart WAS the very God it was WITH.

    Does that make sense, Gene?

    How about if we used “leg”?  The leg was WITH Jehovah, and the leg WAS Jehovah.

    How about “love”?  The love was WITH Jehovah, and the love WAS Jehovah.

    Oh I know!  Let's use “commandment”, since the phrase “the word of God” often refers to commandments God has given.  The commandment was WITH Jehovah, and the commandment WAS Jehovah.

    Do you worship a “commandment” as your God, Gene?  

    Ooh, ooh!  This is even better, since God also spoke curses:  The curse was WITH Jehovah, and the curse WAS Jehovah..

    How's that one, Gene?  Is God a “curse” – just because He SPOKE a curse?

    Just answer the last one.


    Mike……..Mike you are dancing all over the place which only shows your confusions. First of all i never said or implied what you are saying,  I was comparing the Heart OF A man, a Physical thing with a Physical thing, the mans body , you twisted it up in you mind, and came back with combining a Spiritual thing with a physical thing. like comparing apples and oranges, two different things.

    This is what you do with John 1:1 also. Words are Spiritual driven and come from Spirits. Word are not or ever were physical things. Word are connected to Spirit just as our hearts are connected to our physical bodies. The are one and the same thing  in comparison to the whole Only. I have not connected Spiritual with Physical things that is what you are doing. You are making the Physical Jesus the Spiritual “word” of God written in John, he is NOT THE WORD, even though he spoke GOD'S WORDS to Us.

    You have no Idea how the Spirit of God can indwell a person and that is “GOD” HIMSELF “IN” Them. You do not believe what Paul said , know you not your body is the “TEMPLE” of the Living GOD

    Mike GOD the FATHER was “IN” Jesus and Speaking “THROUGH” Him to us all, none of that makes Jesus, GOD own WORDS nor does that make him a God of any kind , nor Divine either, even though the divine Nature of God was “IN” HIM  His was ONE with GOD because God the FATHER was “IN” HIM . We also can have that EXACT SAME RELATIONSHIP with God the FATHER also by the EXACT WAY JESUS DOES.  

    That is what the whole minister of Jesus was all about , it was about us coming to have the same relationship with God the FATHER as Jesus has, or don't you believe what scripture says
    until we come unto the measure and full stature of Christ
    YOUR,  doctrine of the  “SEPARATION” of Jesus from our EXACT IDENTITY with him, is a work of SATAN Himself. It came for the synagogues of Satan the devil, and has overtaken most all of Christendom. These false teaching will be completely abolished at the return of Jesus the Christ. Then you will know Jesus is and was a Human being , who never preexisted before his berth on this earth, except in the plan and will of God from the foundation of the earth.

    Mike i do not worship the commandments as my God , but if i keep HIS commandments, i am honor and respecting him and believing they are his word that came from His Mouth , not word from another mouth as you believe his words are another person. So Gods commandments (which are words) to you are another person or thing right and are not God Mind being expressed to us, because his word according to you are different then he is . Just as you believe your words are a different person then you are right.

    Mike you are completely oblivious to what spirit is or what it can do in a person. You simply haven't a clue it seems to me, and others i might add. But there is still hope, not because of you, but because of who God the Father is . IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

    #373901
    jammin
    Participant

    gene,

    if christ has no pre-existence, paul will not say in phil 2.7 that he was being made in human likeness.

    do you understand that?
    why say being made in human likeness if no pre-existence? that is illogical.

    #373909
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2014,14:21][/quote]

    Quote
    Do you know of another “God” besides “the Father”?  YES or NO?

    Mike,

    THE FATHER IS ONLY A TITLE IN OUR TERMS, WHICH REFERS ONLY TO ONE OF MANY PARTICULAR FUNCTIONS OF THE DEITY!

    NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER BUT THE SON,AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER!

    ALSO, BEFORE CREATION THE FATHER AS THE MAIN SOURCE, HAD THE DIRECT LEADING ROLE AND CREATED HIS FIRST EVER SPIRIT BEING, AND THROUGH HIM AND BY HIM CREATED ALSO ALL THE SPIRIT BEINGS UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME,BUT THROUGH THE WORD WHICH WAS ETERNALLY IN HIS BOSOM! A SPIRIT WITHIN A SPIRIT

    UNFORTUNATELY, IT DIDN'T REMAINED IN THE HARMONY STATE AS IT WAS CREATED!

    DUE TO THE FACT THAT

    A REBEL OCCURRED!

    SO THE FATHER, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, UNDER CONDITION, THEREFORE NOT DOING HIS WILL, AS JESUS CONFIRMED IN THE WORDS: YOUR WILL BE DONE

    HAD TO CREATE OUR WORLD IN RELATION TO THE NEW CONFLICT ATMOSPHERE, SO THE DEITY ESTABLISHED, A MEDIATOR CREATOR TRIUNE GOD, THE SON, THE WORD

    SO THE  FATHER, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, ASSIGNED  ALL POWER TO HIS SON, AND HE HIMSELF WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT,WAS IN A POSITION TO CREATE INDIRECTLY ALL  THROUGH THE WORD SIMPLY THE FATHER SPEAKS, AND THE SON EXECUTE!

    ONE SOWS, AND ONE REAPS

    John 10: If I do not THE WORKS OF MY FATHER, believe me not. 38But if I DO, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN THE FATHER.

    THIS SIMPLY TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE FATHER  TO CREATE OUR WORLD THROUGH DARKNESS,SATANA HERSELF AND THE  REBELLIOUS ANGELS, TO MAKE THEM PERFECT!

    SO AGAIN:

    NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER BUT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT:

     ONLY THE SON WOULD REVEAL WHO THE FATHER REALLY IS

    OBVIOUS THROUGH HIS OWN PRESENT, AND ETERNAL MANIFESTATION WHICH GLORIFIED ON EARTH, ON THE UNIFICATION OF BOTH HIS SOUL, THE HOLY SPIRITAND HIS FLESH BODY, THE WORD HIS SON! AFTER RESURRECTION

    SO YES I REPEAT, AND CONVINCED:

    I KNOW OF ANOTHER GOD, AND HE IS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    AND ONLY ONE SUCH GOD!

    BUT I ALSO AM AWARE THAT THE FATHER WHICH IS, AS HE ALWAYS WAS A SPIRIT BEING WOULD EVENTUALLY OWN TOTALLY,AND DIRECTLY, THIS UNIQUE

    FATHER JESUS' GLORIFIED BODY ,

    ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD, WHEN HE WOULD BE ALL IN ALL AND JESUS WOULD RETAIN HIS ORIGINAL STATE IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER JESUS FOR ETERNITY!

    SO YES ALSO, I KNOW OF SUCH ONLY GOD THE FATHER

    THE  ONLY GOD SPIRIT

    AS JESUS CONFIRMED!

    JOhn 4:24 God is a spirit;…………

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373912
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 17 2014,21:48][/quote]

    Quote
    What are you saying?

    Jesus depends on God.
    Are you less powerful than your word?
    Does your word tell you what to say?
    Is your mind not in control of what you say?

    Wakeup,

    YOU ARE CONFUSED!

    THE WORD LEFT THE FATHER, AND RETURNED NOT VOID TO THE FATHER!

    SO IT IS NO LONGER THE WORD!

    ALSO WHEN THE WORD LEFT THE FATHER IT CREATED ALL!

    AND WAS BORN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MARY, AS HER SOUL

    THEN, THROUGH MARY'S CONCEPTION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH

    THEN THE WORD MADE FLESH JESUS' BODY ONLY,THE SON,  UNITED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS' SOUL, AND THAT MEANS THAT THE WORD MADE FLESH BECAME:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, in the holy spirit, AND JESUS CHRIST, Jesus' body! the ex son's spirit!

    SO TO CLARIFY:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    AT ONE STAGE, FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, IT WAS THE WORD

    BUT SINCE THEN IT DID ALL WHAT THE FATHER SAID, ACCOMPLISHED ALL, AS JESUS SAID ON THE CROSS! AND STILL PROSPERING,

    ALSO THIS EX GOD'S WORD IS GLORIFIED AND IT IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, REAVELING GOD'S WONDERS

    SINCE THIS EX WORD OF GOD, IS IN FULL COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES!

    AND NOTHING WOULD BE EXECUTED ANY MORE WITHOUT HIS CONSENT! SINCE HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT!

    THE UNIQUE GOD WHO OWNS A UNIQUE BODY BOTH OF SPIRIT from the father AND FLESH from the son FOR ETERNITY!

    NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER BUT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER

    AND IT'S UP TO THE SON TO WHOM HE REVEALS WHO THE FATHER IS, OBVIOUS HE IS IN COMMAND, AND HE OWNS THE FATHER'S GLORIFIED MANIFESTED BODY IN HIMSELF UP TO NOW!

    HE IS GOD THE FATHER JESUS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    THEN

    #373914
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2014,04:26)
    Nick, jammin, Gene, and all:

    We all seem to agree that the “God” in John 1:1b (the Word was with “God”) is “the Father”.

    But is the “God” in 1:1c (the Word was “God”) also “the Father”?

    YES or NO?


    Quote
    But is the “God” in 1:1c (the Word was “God”) also “the Father”?

    Mike,

    YES IN A DIFFERENT FUNCTION!

    HAPPY?

    LIKE FOR INSTANCE!

    THE CATERPILLAR IS WHEN HE BECOMES A BUTTERFLY!

    HAPPY ?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373917
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 16 2014,06:26][/quote]

    Quote
    And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”

    Mike,

    WHAT IS THERE REGARDING GOD, WHICH HUMAN INTELLECT COULD UNDERSTAND?

    FOR INSTANCE:

    WHEN THE SON OF GOD WAS BORN WE ALL BELIEVE THAT HE WAS PERFECT!

    BUT TO PROVE THAT HE WAS PERFECT HE OPTED TO BE IMPERFECT!

    NOW SINCE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO SOMEONE LIKE YOU,

    DOES THAT MEAN THAT IT IS NOT TRUE?

    ALSO!

    FEW POSTS BACK, YOU SHOUTED THAT YOUR ENTIRETY IS

    A SPIRIT, A SOUL, AND A BODY!  

    ALL IN ONE HUMAN BEING

    SO YOU ARE BOTH A THREE, AND ONE BEING NO?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373920
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 18 2014,06:40)
    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 17 2014,21:48][/quote]

    Quote
    What are you saying?

    Jesus depends on God.
    Are you less powerful than your word?
    Does your word tell you what to say?
    Is your mind not in control of what you say?

    Wakeup,

    YOU ARE CONFUSED!

    THE WORD LEFT THE FATHER, AND RETURNED NOT VOID TO THE FATHER!

    SO IT IS NO LONGER THE WORD!

    ALSO WHEN THE WORD LEFT THE FATHER IT CREATED ALL!

    AND WAS BORN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MARY, AS HER SOUL

    THEN, THROUGH MARY'S CONCEPTION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH

    THEN THE WORD MADE FLESH JESUS' BODY ONLY,THE SON,  UNITED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS' SOUL, AND THAT MEANS THAT THE WORD MADE FLESH BECAME:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, in the holy spirit, AND JESUS CHRIST, Jesus' body! the ex son's spirit!

    SO TO CLARIFY:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    AT ONE STAGE, FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, IT WAS THE WORD

    BUT SINCE THEN IT DID ALL WHAT THE FATHER SAID, ACCOMPLISHED ALL, AS JESUS SAID ON THE CROSS! AND STILL PROSPERING,

    ALSO THIS EX GOD'S WORD IS GLORIFIED AND IT IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, REAVELING GOD'S WONDERS

    SINCE THIS EX WORD OF GOD, IS IN FULL COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES!

    AND NOTHING WOULD BE EXECUTED ANY MORE WITHOUT HIS CONSENT! SINCE HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT!

    THE UNIQUE GOD WHO OWNS A UNIQUE BODY BOTH OF SPIRIT from the father AND FLESH from the son FOR ETERNITY!

    NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER BUT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER

    AND IT'S UP TO THE SON TO WHOM HE REVEALS WHO THE FATHER IS, OBVIOUS HE IS IN COMMAND, AND HE OWNS THE FATHER'S GLORIFIED MANIFESTED BODY IN HIMSELF UP TO NOW!

    HE IS GOD THE FATHER JESUS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    THEN


    Carmel.

    Can you respond on these questions please?

    Jesus depends on God.

    1.Are you less powerful than your word?
    2.Does your word tell you what to say?
    3.Is your mind not in control of what you say?

    wakeup.

    #373938
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,07:47)
    elijah, david and goliath or whatever, all of them have LIMITATION


    Jesus also had limitations, jammin. He still does today – even in his exalted state. That's why he sits at the right hand of his and our God Jehovah, and waits for Jehovah to place his enemies at his feet, so he can then destroy those enemies.

    That's why, even in heaven, Jesus still calls Jehovah “my God”.

    #373940
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2014,22:38)
    Hi MB,
    Yes the Father Who is spirit.
    No that is your simplistic understanding.

    The Spirit cannot fit in your logic


    Nick,

    I'm not sure what you're saying “YES” to, and what you're saying “NO” to.

    #373943
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Can the Holy Spirit of God be in you and God be in heaven?

    #373945
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 17 2014,07:52)
    mike,

    do not fool people. what verse does it say that solomon is omniscient?
    you mean since the beginning of his existence here on earth, HE KNOWS EVERYTHING? YES OR NO?

    give me one boy. stop fooling people.


    I couldn't find the one about Solomon, but in 2 Samuel 14:20, David is said to have the wisdom of an angel of God, and to know all things on the earth.

    My point was that sharing a nature doesn't make us equal in every way.

    And things like “knowledge” are not part of the nature we share. For example, David had much more knowledge than the rest of the humans alive at that time. And Solomon was even wiser than David.

    But just because those two knew a lot doesn't mean everybody with human nature knows as much as they did.

    So while Jehovah might be omniscient, it doesn't mean that everyone who shares His nature also knows everything Jehovah knows.

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