John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,921 through 15,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #373520
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,08:13)
    Hi KW,
    To every man his logic is flawless.
    But there are deeper truths


    Nick,

    It does not care if a man thinks his logic is flawless as logic is like math. A man may think his math is flawless but that does not mean 1 + 1 = 7.  The trinitarians who claim their teaching not ” not capable of logical demonstration once revealed” are using illogical logic to make even that point and never the less there claim is still untrue.

    #373522
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    The Word WAS God.
    The Word is not God

    The Word is the Spirit of Christ

    #373523
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Jn8
    12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    The Word and the Father, in Jesus, witness to truth

    #373529
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,14:05)
    Hi,
    The Word WAS God.
    The Word is not God

    The Word is the Spirit of Christ


    Nick.

    There was a time when nothing was created.
    This was the time when the Word was in God's mind,
    For God has not spoken.

    wakeup.

    #373566
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 15 2014,03:39)
    ***for that which is conceived in her is of the HolyGhost***.

    And you say he has not the Holy Spirit before His baptism?
    Please explain.

    Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost.
    Because the Holy Spirit is always in the Word;and Jesus *is the Word*. And the Holy Spirit will glorify Him.(john 16).

    Unless you believe that Jesus is *NOT* the Word of God.

    When Jesus was 12 yrs old He already started to debate
    the scribes in the synagogue.

    The Word was *with* God during creation days.
    The Word *was* God before creation.

    The dove is just a sign for John; that He/Jesus is the
    the Messiah.

    Are you saying that Jesus is not devine?
    Is the Word of God that created all things NOT devine?
    Did God create the man Jesus, or did God transformed His Word into flesh?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup……….All thing in the earth were brought forth by the Spirit of GOD, does that make them DIVINE or the word of God themselves also.

    The word “HOLY” SPIRIT means a Special or set aside SPIRIT, and being conceived “by” it does not make you Holy Spirit, God used his Power (holy spirit) to supply a certain DNA in MARY to produce a Son that would “LOOK” Just as he described in Isaiah, He wanted Jesus to have a certain kind of flesh appearance.

    The words, “that which is conceived in her is “OF” the Holy Ghost”, simply means it was brought about by the holy spirit of God. God supplied the Male part of the DNA, Which did make his physical Father God, Just as ADAM and Eves FATHER was GOD in a physical sense . But that has nothing to do with the Spiritual.  Spiritual is a completely different matter.  You can't cross a physical berth to a Spiritual berth, they are different one is from below while the other is from above. Those who have received the holy Spirit are born from above. It worked the the exact same way for Jesus the Anointed or Christ also.

    Also notice the angels said “THAT WHICH” , this shows the angel never had any PREEXISTENCE Knowledge of Jesus in a Past existence either. Or why would he say “THAT” which? Another scripture says as i recall, “IT” shall be. Which shows the “IT” which was the baby never Preexisted either, or why would the angel say “IT, if he had a foreknowledge of Jesus.

    Also Scripture does not say the Spirit that abides on him was “just” for a 'sign', for John alone, you added that part, in fact it does not say it was a Dove either, but it descended “like” it and it abide or remained on him. John was given the ability to see what was taking place at Jesus' baptism is all. And indeed it was a sign for John to see , of what was actually taking place.

    That is when he became the Messiah or anointed one of GOD, and after that he was sent into the Wilderness, to be tried and tested for forty days and nights. And when he came back, he then was sent out into the world, to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God , none of that took place before he was anointed and became the Messiah of GOD.

    It was at his baptism, that a voice came from heaven and said “ thou art my son “THIS DAY” I have BEGOTTEN YOU. God using his spirit to form Jesus appearance in Mary womb, never made Jesus “the word” ,or “divine” nor MORPHED from a preexistence either, It made him look a certain way is all. It was not until He was Baptized and received the holy Spirit in him, He became a Son of God.

    This applies to all mankind also, it is when we are Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit that we become SONS OF GOD. Even though all our flesh existences came from God also.

    John said , Brethren know you not, that   “NOW” you “ARE” the Sons of the Living GOD”

    Wakeup think about this. and quite being on the side of those that are separating Jesus' identity from his human brothers and sisters. The doctrine of the trinity and Preexistence is of Satan, it is not of the truth brother.

    Think about these things and come out of those false teachings while there is time.  Time is short we need to get this right brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

    #373574
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2014,18:38)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2014,10:44)

    ….. and the Word was with God……

    1.  Who is the underlined “God” in part b, Nick?  Is it “Father God”?  YES or NO?

    …….. and the Word was God.

    2.  Who is the underlined “God” in part c?  Is it “Father God”?  YES or NO?


    Hi MB,
    God makes it very plain by saying the WORD WAS GOD that there were not two Gods together despite your urgings from logic to say so.


    Part b makes it plain that the Word was WITH God – which DOES make it sound like there were TWO entities, one of whom was WITH the other.

    But if you give DIRECT answers to the two questions in the quote box above, we can slowly get to the bottom of it.  

    So please do that at this time.

    #373576
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    MAKES IT SOUND LIKE is not useful when speaking of the things of God

    #373577
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 13 2014,19:10)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2014,07:54)

    So you agree that there was ONLY God at first?

    There was no separate “word” who was with God at first, right?


    Mike B.

    1.**Before creation** started there was only God.


    Good.  We agree on that part.

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 13 2014,19:10)
    3.This person's word is not another person.This person's
      mind is not another person.This person's love is not
      another person. **This person's word is not *A* second
      person**.


    Again, I agree with you that a person's love, thoughts, or words are not “a second person”.

    So, is it your understanding that Jesus Christ, the Word of God, was ALWAYS God Himself, and not “a second person”?

    Or do you still claim that when God brought this Word forth, it WAS “a second person” who obeyed God?

    Which one do you now believe, Wakeup?  Because your current statement #3 goes AGAINST the things you've been telling me for months.

    #373581
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 11 2014,11:00][/quote]

    Quote
    No Charles……………

    If I was going to tell you that God is granting me “eternal life”, do you suppose I could say it this way:  Hey Charles!  God said He was going to grant me Jesus! ?  ???

    Mike,

    UNAWARE OF IT, YOU'VE GOT IT RIGHT THIS TIME!

    READ YOUR OWN WORDS:

    Hey Charles!  God said

    HE WAS GOING TO GRANT ME JESUS

    FOR SURE MIKE,

    GOD GRANTED YOU JESUS, OBVIOUS NOT AS A REDEEMER  HUMAN BEING ONLY! BUT AS

    THE WORD THE ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD REV13:8 TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN YOU TILL YOU ARE REDEEMED, NO MATTER  HOW MANY MILLIONS OF YEARS IT WOULD TAKE!

    SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR:

    John17:2 As thou hast given him power AUTHORITY over all flesh,  THAT HE MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHOM YOU HAS GIVEN HIM.

    3Now this is eternal life:  CLEAR NO? DECLARED BY JESUS,

    THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    A REFERENCE TO HIMSELF SINCE HE WAS ABOUT TO BE SACRIFICED!

    That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373582
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 14 2014,08:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2014,08:04)

    1.  There exists only one Most High God, jammin.  Do you agree with that?  YES or NO?

    2.  In the beginning, the Word was with that one Most High God.  Do you agree with that?  YES or NO?


    1. if you are talking about the God the father then YES.

    2.YES………


    1.  Which other God would I be talking about?  Of course I'm talking about the Father.  I accept your answer of “YES”.

    2.  So if the Word was WITH the Most High God, and there exists only ONE Most High God, then it is clear that the Word wasn't that Most High God he was WITH.

    You can't just say “YES”, and then offer your imagination and wishes that “Jesus was also God”.  Your wishes and imaginations don't amount to anything but wishes and imaginations.

    You imagine that John 1:1 says that the Word was with “ONE PERSON OF THE GODHEAD” (why you guys say “one person” ,and don't also include “the Holy Spirit person of the Godhead” is beyond me), and the Word was “ONE OF THE OTHER PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD”.

    But that is just your wishful thinking, and cannot be discerned from the words John actually wrote.

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 14 2014,08:24)
    let me post what barclay said about NWT.

    Barclay: Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar of the University of Glasgow, Scotland: “The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '…the Word was a god, ' a translation which is grammatically impossible…It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”

    poor mike. you have no idea about the greek grammar.


    Let's look at what some other people say, jammin:

    1.  Your own source, Daniel Wallace, a Trinitarian, says that John wrote 1:1 in such a way as to keep anyone from identifying “the Word” with “the person of God”.  Who is “the person of God”, jammin?  Doesn't your doctrine say there are THREE “persons of God”?  So why did Wallace only say “the person of God”?   ???

    2.  The 25 scholars from NETNotes, also Trinitarians, say:  Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite.

    This tells us that “a god” IS INDEED one of the possibilities.  They go on to say:  The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)……….

    Again, they mention this mysterious “person of God”.  And again, that confuses me because Trinitarians believe there are THREE “persons of God”.  So what do they mean when they say the Word is not “the person of God”?   ???

    3.  Scholar William Arnold III says, “You could only derive a Trinitarian interpretation from John 1:1 if you come to this passage with an already developed Trinitarian theology.”

    4.  Scholar and Greek professor Jason BeDuhn says, “Translators of the KJV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, New American Standard Bible, AB, Good News Bible and LB all approached the text at John 1:1 already believing certain things about the Word…and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs….

    Ironically, some of these same scholars are quick to charge the New World Translation (NWT) with “doctrinal bias” for translating the verse literally, free of KJV influence, following the sense of the Greek.

    It may very well be that the NW translators came to the task of translating John 1:1 with as much bias as the other translators did. It just so happens that their bias corresponds in this case to a more accurate translation of the Greek.

    “In fact the KIT [Appendix 2A, p.1139] (Kingdom Interlinear Translation) explanation is perfectly correct according to the best scholarship done on this subject..

    5.  Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris wrote, “Accordingly, from the point of view of grammar alone, [QEOS HN hO LOGOS] could be rendered “the Word was a god,….”

    6.  Trinitarian scholar C. H. Dodd says, “……a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.”

    You see, jammin, the Trinitarian scholars USED TO slam the NWT, and claim that there is NO WAY IN HELL that “the Word was a god” was even possible.  But even as they were saying these things, they knew full well that it WAS in fact one of the possible translations of those Greek words.  

    The later Trinitarian scholars also knew that “the Word was a god” was a completely viable translation of the Greek words.  The difference is that these more recent Trinitarian scholars also know that regular people like you and me now have access to that information from the internet – where we DIDN'T have access to it before.  So these later scholars can no longer just flat out LIE about it like the earlier ones did.  They still throw their jabs at the NWT, saying that while it is possible, it is not the “correct” translation.  But they only say that because they are like you, and nonsensically believe that the Son OF God can BE the very God he is the Son OF.  They believe this absurdity, and want other knuckleheads to believe it too.

    So they still slam the NWT translation, but they no longer can get away with saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to translate it as “the Word was a god”.  And why they all take aim ONLY at the NWT, is beyond me, since there are many other people and translations that have rendered 1:1 similarly:

    1966, 2001 The Good News Bible reads: “…and he was the same as God.”

    1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “…and what God was, the Word was.”

    1956 The Wuest Expanded Translation reads: “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity”

    1808 “and the Word was a god” – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.

    1864 “and a god was the Word” (left hand column interlinear reading) The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

    1935 “and the Word was divine” – The Bible—An Americ
    an Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

    1955 “so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

    1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

    1822 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);

    1863 “and the Word was a god.” – A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);

    1885 “and the Word was a god.” – Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885);

    1879 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);

    1911 “and the Word was a god.” – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);

    1958 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed” (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);

    1829 “and the Word was a god.” – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);

    1975 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

    1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

    I hope you have learned something from this research I did for you.

    #373583
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2014,19:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 14 2014,20:29)
    kerwin,
    no verse that tells us that MAN HAS NATURE OF GOD.


    Jammin,

    Since you have not answered my question about whether God has a divine nature I am assuming you are afraid it will compromise your position.  

    My question is why do you choose to take a position that you feel can be compromised that easily?


    :)

    #373584
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2014,19:30)

    Quote
    In Christian tradition the Trinity is a mystery of faith revealed in scripture, historically being deemed unknowable by unaided human reason and not capable of logical demonstration once revealed, being above reason without being incompatible with the principles of rational thought.


    Nick and Wakeup,

    Please copy and save the bolded part of that statement Kerwin posted.  That way you can just paste it to your post as a “fancy way” of telling us that your doctrines are nonsensical BECAUSE the “spiritual truth” shouldn't make sense to human beings.

    Here are some more quotes you can copy and save:

    The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”

    Monsignor Eugene Clark says: “God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.”

    Cardinal John O’Connor states: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”

    And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”

    Now all you guys have to do is to substitute “The Trinity Doctrine” with whatever nonsensical doctrine you are currently preaching, and use the rest of the words on us.

    That way, you guys can sound “learned” when telling us that, although your doctrine is ludicrous, it doesn't “have to make sense to us humans”.  :)

    #373585
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2014,21:05)
    Hi,
    The Word WAS God.
    The Word is not God


    So then “God” became something OTHER THAN “God”, Nick?

    #373586
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    So theology is enough for you?

    #373587
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2014,12:12)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2014,18:38)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2014,10:44)

    ….. and the Word was with God……

    1.  Who is the underlined “God” in part b, Nick?  Is it “Father God”?  YES or NO?

    …….. and the Word was God.

    2.  Who is the underlined “God” in part c?  Is it “Father God”?  YES or NO?


    Hi MB,
    God makes it very plain by saying the WORD WAS GOD that there were not two Gods together despite your urgings from logic to say so.


    Part b makes it plain that the Word was WITH God – which MAKES IT PLAIN there were TWO entities, one of whom was WITH the other.

    But if you give DIRECT answers to the two questions in the quote box above, we can slowly get to the bottom of it.  

    So please do that at this time.

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,12:13)
    Hi MB,
    MAKES IT SOUND LIKE is not useful when speaking of the things of God


    Okay, game-player.  I've changed my words to align with the words you used.

    Now answer the two questions with DIRECT answers.

    #373588
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 15 2014,12:40)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 11 2014,11:00][/quote]

    Quote
    No Charles……………

    If I was going to tell you that God is granting me “eternal life”, do you suppose I could say it this way:  Hey Charles!  God said He was going to grant me Jesus! ?  ???


    Mike,

    UNAWARE OF IT, YOU'VE GOT IT RIGHT THIS TIME!


    Okay, let's try this one:

    Satan was originally created with “JESUS”, but God will soon destroy him.

    Can we substitute “JESUS” for “eternal life” in that one? Does the word “JESUS” actually MEAN “eternal life”, Charles?

    #373589
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,13:28)
    Hi MB,
    So theology is enough for you?


    That is nothing but mindless tripe, Nick.

    You have questions waiting for your answers. Better get to it.

    #373595
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Have you always tried to dominate dialogue and demand answers to cover insecurity or is this new?
    Foolish questions do not get answered

    #373607
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Are you unable to answer those easy questions, Nick?

    Should you preach to others a doctrine that you cannot even answer questions about?

    #373610
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Surely we are yet students of scripture not teachers

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