John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,801 through 15,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #372769
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2014,10:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2014,08:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2014,09:59)
    …..the main thing I learned from Wallace is that John wrote 1:1 in a way that keeps us from identifying “the Word” with “God”.


    it is because you do not understand what wallace said.

    Christ is God phil 2.6
    john 1.1
    john 1.18
    john 20.28
    and many many more verses that give us proof about the deity of Christ.


    Phil 2:6 tells us that Jesus was existing in the form OF God.  That eliminates him from BEING the God in whose form he was existing.

    John 1:1 is written in a way that keeps us from identifying the Word with God.  I learned that from Mr. Wallace.  (Actually, Mr. Wallace just added some more scholarly support to something I have known for years.)

    John 1:18 starts off by telling us that no one has seen “God” at any time.  So the very fact that the one who wrote those words had indeed seen “Jesus” many times prohibits us from thinking that John himself believed Jesus was the “God” no man had ever seen.

    And in 20:28, Thomas addresses Jesus as “God” – the same way the writer of Psalm 45 addressed someone other than Jehovah as “O God”.  And just as the fact that the psalm goes on to talk about how the God OF this “O God” person set the “O God” person above his companions, the rest of the gospel of John also explains that Jesus is not the Most High God Himself – but the Son, Servant, Messiah, Prophet, and Priest OF that Most High God.  So if you take the entire context into account, you'll be able to see that just being called “god” does NOT equate you with the Almighty God who created all things.

    jammin, you can't base your entire Biblical beliefs on a couple of scriptures that have the word “theos” in them.  Even Satan is called “theos” in scripture, right?

    The vast majority of scripture distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “God” over and over again.  Start believing those scriptures as well, okay?


    do you exist in the FORM OF MAN?

    yes or no?

    if your answer is YES, you should accept that you are MAN by nature.

    Christ is God by nature. that is the meaning of phil 2.6. paul did not say in phil 2.6 that he was existing in the form of God therefore it eliminates him from being the GOD in whose form he was existing. your words are different from what the bible said.

    you dont understand the meaning of the phil 2.6

    john 1.1 tells us that the Word is not the father but the Word is God by nature (wallace also said that).

    john 1.18 tells us that God (father) has never seen by any man but only JESUS. JEsus is GOD THE ONLY SON and not the GOD THE FATHER.

    john 20.28 thomas did not say O GOD.

    what version is that? hahahha

    thomas said MY LORD AND MY GOD!
    do not fool people mike.

    do not add words that are not written in the bible.

    #372770
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2014,11:08)
    Hi,
    2Cor 4.7
    “but we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves”

    That was the way of Jesus and the apostles and now we too can share this divine blessing


    Nick…………Amen to that brother.

    peace and love. to you and yours…………………gene

    #372771
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……….Love is an action word, what you Love you will keep. All thing boil down to Love and Hate, what you hate you are rejecting, what you Love you are Keeping. Therefore it say “may the LORD bless you and KEEP (love) YOU”.  Jacob have I loved, Esau have i hated.

    God can love and can hate. What he hates he will DESTROY, what he loves he will KEEP.   God so “LOVED” the world that he gave his only begotten Son , that  whosoever believes on him “SHOULD” not parish, but have life everlasting  Love is an ongoing action , just as Hate is an ongoing action.

    Therefore he who Hates his brother will destroy him and he is a Murderer, he who loves his brother will try to keep him. It is all about Love and Hate, we are told to LOVE one another. All of God's Commandments are about LOVE, for God, and our Fellow man. Jesus Said  that all the commandments hinged on these two things, Love for God and Love for man. Paul described Love, These virtues will be in us, if the Love of God has been “shed around in our hearts”, by his spirit. IMO

    peace and love to you all………………………………………gene

    #372784
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 07 2014,09:53][/quote]

    Quote
    Genesis 2:24-25 doesn't support all those other things you claimed…

    Mike,

    HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT SINCE YOU DON'T SEE THINGS THE WAY I DO!

    FOR EXAMPLE FOR YOU, ONLY ADAM AND EVE WERE NAKED, FOR ME NOT!

    Quote
    As for what my “entirety” consists of, there are too many things to mention.

    Nerves, blood cells, skin cells, neurons, legs, hands, eyes, etc.

    WITH THE ABOVE MIKE, YOU CONFIRMED THAT YOU REALLY ARE INTERESTED IN THE THINGS OF MEN, ALTHOUGH WE ARE DISCUSSING THE THINGS OF GOD, IN RELATION TO MAN!

    THOSE THINGS ARE NOT YOU MIKE,

    THOSE THINGS BELONG TO YOUR TEMPORARY BODY!

    THOSE ARE YOUR PRISON ELEMENTS!

    THOSE THINGS ARE WHAT KEEP YOU DEAD!

    YOU SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, YOU HEAR AND DON'T UNDERSTAND

    Quote
    The “entirety” of Mike Boll would definitely include body, soul, and spirit.

    NOT EXACTLY!

    THE SPIRIT BELONGS TO GOD, SO IT IS NEITHER YOU, NOR YOURS!

    THE BODY AS I SAID IS DEAD MATTER,SIMPLY THE CARRIER OF YOUR SOUL!

    SO! BACK TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION:

    WHEN YOU MAKE USE OF THE FIRST SINGULAR PERSON PRONOUN I,

    ARE YOU REFERRING TO YOUR BODY, TO YOUR SOUL, OR TO BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #372788
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    God is not unique in his righteousness as Jesus and the angels are like him in true holiness and righteousness. In addition believers are called to put on their new selves created like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    #372789
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    If you are a believer and your spirit exists in the form of man then you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    #372797
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 07 2014,00:36)
    the name JESUS was given by GABRIEL!


    Scripture?

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 07 2014,00:36)
    SO JESUS THE SON, SPIRITUALLY, WAS ALWAYS JESUS THE SON FROM ETERNITY IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER!

    HE SIMPLY WAS NOT YET BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER! SPIRITUALLY!


    Sons don't exist from the same moment as their fathers.  The word “son” refers to someone who was brought forth into existence BY their father.

    Also, it is the act of “begetting” that produces a son where there wasn't one before.  A son doesn't exist before he is begotten.

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 07 2014,00:36)
    THEN THIS JESUS BECAME

    THE WORD  HIDDEN WITHIN THE FIRST CREATURE LUCIFER!

    TO SUSTAIN HIM ETERNALLY NO MATTER WHAT!


    See, now you're just spouting silly stuff that isn't supported by any scripture.

    #372798
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 07 2014,15:16)
    WHEN YOU MAKE USE OF THE FIRST SINGULAR PERSON PRONOUN I,

    ARE YOU REFERRING TO YOUR BODY, TO YOUR SOUL, OR TO BOTH?


    My body, my soul, and my spirit, Charles.

    God has given me a spirit to animate me.  I agree that it continues to belong to God, but He has given it to me as my own for a short while.

    That's why Ecclesiastes 12:7 says our spirit will go back to God who gave it. As long as I'm breathing, that spirit is mine.

    Charles, this is the third time I've given you the same basic answer to the same question. How many times must I answer it?

    #372799
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    Your post isn't worthy of a response.  Suffice to say that your Mr. Wallace said it right:  John wrote 1:1 in such a way to keep us from identifying the Word with God.

    Anything else is just your and his additions to what John wrote.

    Btw, if my father is a man, and if I share his nature, then I am also A man.  I am not the SAME man, or the SAME being as my father.

    Neither is Jesus the SAME god, or the SAME being as his own Father and God, Jehovah.

    #372827
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Quite so.
    He is the Son of God by the anointing of the Spirit.
    Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh-holding the treasure in his blessed vessel.

     “..God has spoken to us through His Son”heb1

    Now they are Father and Son in the one Spirit.

    We can share in the same anointing and have eternal life in him..

    #372862
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 08 2014,13:12][/quote]

    Quote
    the name JESUS was given by GABRIEL!

    Scripture?

    Mike,

    Luke 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

    happy?

    Quote
    Sons don't exist from the same moment as their fathers.  The word “son” refers to someone who was brought forth into existence BY their father.

    GOD THE FATHER HAS NO MOMENTS OF EXISTENCE,

    HE IS AN  ETERNAL EXISTENCE AND SO THE SON!

    READ:

    1John 1:2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    THE LIFE ETERNAL,WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER,

    and hath APPEARED to us:

    SO THE SON WAS ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER, AND APPEARED!

    MIKE,

    According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is “pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship.” This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's “only begotten son” (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

    The second definition is “pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind.” This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight

    JESUS AS UNIQUELY GOD'S SON , SHARING THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS GOD AS OPPOSED TO BELIEVERS WHO ARE GOD'S SONS AND DAUGHTERS BY ADOPTION ( EPHESIANS 1:5).

    JESUS IS GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.

    NOW THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU MIKE, MUST GET IT

    INTO YOUR MIND! OK?

    READ:

    Terms such as “Father” and “Son,” descriptive of God and Jesus, are human terms that help us understand the relationship between the different Persons of the Trinity.

    SO IN THE TRUTH, NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON EXCEPT THE FATHER!

    NOW SINCE YOU ARE:

    A DEAD SUBSTANCE, AND LIVING ONLY IN A CORRUPTED HUMAN GARB! LIKE ALL HUMANS!

    SINCE YOU ARE NEVER READY TO ABANDON THE CONCEPT OF PUTTING GOD AND HIS PERSONAL MYSTERIES IN THE SAME BASKET OF FILTHY STINKY HUMANS!

    ANSWER:

    SINCE YOU COMPARED  GOD'S FATHER AND SON CONCEPT IN THE SAME HUMAN TERMS,

    DOES GOD THE FATHER OWNS SEXUAL ORGANS?

    DOES GOD THE FATHER OWNED ALSO FROM ETERNITY A WIFE IN HIMSELF SINCE HE HAD A SON FROM ETERNITY IN HIS BOSOM?

    IF NEITHER HAVE SEXUAL ORGANS, AND NOR A WIFE,

    HOW WAS HIS SON BORN, OF MARY,

    A MALE,

    A FEMALE,

    NEITHER A MALE AND NOR A FEMALE,

    OR BOTH MALE AND FEMALE,

    I REPEAT, SINCE YOU APPLY HUMAN TERMS REGARDING GOD'S PERSONAL THINGS,

    AND THESE THINGS ARE ALL ALSO POSSIBLE IN HUMAN TERMS!

    MIKE, NOT JUST PICK YOUR FAVOURITE, BUT SUPPORT IT WITH SCRIPTURES

    Peace and love inn Jesus

    Charles

    #372864
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Mar. 08 2014,10:34][/quote]

    Quote
    God is not unique in his righteousness as Jesus and the angels are like him in true holiness and righteousness.  In addition believers are called to put on their new selves created like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    Kerwin,

    YOU REALLY ARE IN A BAD STATE!

    UNLESS WITH THE WORD LIKE YOU ARE IN NO WAY UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE ENTIRE CREATION IS IN A WAY PARALLEL WITH IT'S CREATOR!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #372865
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 08 2014,13:22][/quote]

    Quote
    My body, my soul, and my spirit, Charles.

    God has given me a spirit to animate me.  I agree that it continues to belong to God, but He has given it to me as my own for a short while.

    That's why Ecclesiastes 12:7 says our spirit will go back to God who gave it.  As long as I'm breathing, that spirit is mine.

    Charles, this is the third time I've given you the same basic answer to the same question.  How many times must I answer it?

    Mike,

    FIRST OF ALL PATIENCE IF YOU KNOW HOW!

    SECOND TILL YOU ADMIT THE TRUTH!

    Mike, HONESTLY SPEAKING, I DOUBT WHETHER YOU KNOW WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO, WITH THE STATEMENT:

    AS LONG AS I’M BREATHING,THE SPIRIT IS MINE!

    DO YOU MIKE?

    HOW COME THAT YOU ARE NOT JUST ONE SUBSTANCE LIKE YOU BELIEVE GOD IS, IF YOU ALSO BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED YOU IN HIS IMAGE?

    WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ENTIRETY MIKE, WHEN AS YOU SAID:

    GOD'S SPIRIT WILL LEAVE YOU, ALMOST IN THE SAME MOMENT THAT YOUR BODY DIES?

    THEREFORE, IN SIMPLE TERMS:

    YOUR ENTIRETY WOULD BE MASSACRED?

    WHAT PRONOUN FOR YOU WOULD BE JUSTIFIED JUST FOR OUR ARGUMENT SAKE, MIKE?

    wouldn't IT be STILL the I WHICH IN FACT IT WOULD BE THE GENUINE TRUTH! ALTHOUGH YOU WOULDN'T BE A BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT BUT JUST

    A SOUL WITH ITS GENUINE INTELLECT FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME!

    SOMETHING WHICH YOU KEPT ON IGNORING AND PREOCCUPIED   TO ADMIT?

    SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE IN PITCH DARKNESS! AND TERRORISED OF THE LIGHT THAT YOU WOULD BE CONVERTED!

    ALL THIS MIKE DERIVED FROM YOUR STATEMENT HEREUNDER:

    Quote
    If God appointed someone as an heir, then it is clear that this “heir” cannot possibly BE the God who appointed him AS an heir.  Again, this is simple common sense.

    WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT,

    NOW IF YOU IN THE BODY COMMIT ENOUGH EVIL DEEDS, AND YOU IN THE SOUL WOULD END UP IN HELL, WOULD YOU SAY TO JESUS, THAT YOUR BODY CANNOT POSSIBLY BE THE ONE WHO COMMITTED THE EVIL DEEDS IN THE SOUL , THEREFORE THE SOUL SHOULD GO TO HEAVEN, AND NOT TO HELL?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #372868
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2014,13:12)
    the name JESUS was given by GABRIEL!

    Scripture?


    Mike,

    Luke 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

    happy?


    The name Jesus was “declared” by Gabriel.  The way you worded your statement, it seemed to me as if you were saying Gabriel is the one who actually named the Son of God.  

    But anyway, there is nothing in Luke 1 that tells us that this flesh being born of Mary wasn't already named Jesus in heaven before he was born of Mary.

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Sons don't exist from the same moment as their fathers.  The word “son” refers to someone who was brought forth into existence BY their father.

    GOD THE FATHER HAS NO MOMENTS OF EXISTENCE,


    Let me rephrase it then:  A father is ALWAYS already in existence BEFORE his son comes into existence. Can you argue against that one?

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)
    THE LIFE ETERNAL,WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER,

    and hath APPEARED to us:

    SO THE SON WAS ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER, AND APPEARED!


    Jesus is metaphorically “our eternal life”.  That means that he is the means by which we can gain eternal life. It doesn't mean Jesus is literally the abstract notion of eternal life itself.  Nor does it say anything about Jesus existing FROM eternity.

    Jesus was the firstborn of every creature.  That means God created him first.  Then Jesus died.  Then his Father and God granted him eternal life so he doesn't have to ever die again.  And through him, we also have the chance to be granted eternal life by his God and our God, Jehovah.  So in that metaphorical sense, Jesus IS “eternal life”.  But he is not literally “eternal life itself”.

    Consider that many of us will also be granted eternal life.  Like Jesus, we will never have to die again.  But the fact that we will be “eternal sons and daughters of God” won't ever mean that any us have existed FROM eternity, right?

    So why do you think the fact that Jesus is NOW eternal means he existed FROM eternity like the God who brought him forth?

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)
    JESUS AS UNIQUELY GOD'S SON , SHARING THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS GOD AS OPPOSED TO BELIEVERS WHO ARE GOD'S SONS AND DAUGHTERS BY ADOPTION ( EPHESIANS 1:5).

    JESUS IS GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.


    The Greek word “monogenes” is a combination of two Greek words.  The first one, “monos”, simply means “alone”, or “only”.  The second part, “genes”, is a form of the word “ginomai”, which has as it's first definition:  to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being.

    It's literal meaning is “only-generated”.

    I also understand the idiomatic use of the word that refers to a UNIQUE individual – different from all others.  This is the meaning in the case of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham in a UNIQUE way.  But Isaac also “received being” from Abraham, right?

    Likewise, Jesus is a Son of God in a UNIQUE way – a way that no one else can ever be a son of God.  But, like Isaac from Abraham, Jesus also “received being” from his Father.

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)
    Terms such as “Father” and “Son,” descriptive of God and Jesus, are human terms that help us understand the relationship between the different Persons of the Trinity.


    First of all, there is no such thing as a “Trinity Godhead”.  This is the imagination of men who were inspired by Satan.

    Secondly, why in the world would God choose to use the human terms “father” and “son” to describe a relationship between two persons in a Godhead who have both existed from eternity?  ???  Why choose THOSE human terms?  Surely God understands how we humans understand a “father/son” relationship, right?  So if God wanted us to know that He and His Son had both existed from eternity, and were both members of some “Godhead”, He could have come up with terms that would explain such a thing to human beings, right?

    Yet God chose to use a “father/son” relationship to explain His own relationship with His own Son, Jesus, right?  So think about WHY God chose to use that particular relationship to explain His relationship with Jesus to us.  Perhaps it was because that particular relationship FITS the situation?

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,00:28)
    SINCE YOU COMPARED  GOD'S FATHER AND SON CONCEPT IN THE SAME HUMAN TERMS,

    DOES GOD THE FATHER OWNS SEXUAL ORGANS


    This part of your post is just more silliness, Charles.  Can God raised up sons for Himself from mere stones?  Yes.  Does He need sexual organs to do it?  No.

    Did God use sexual organs to make His first human son, Adam?  No. Did He use sexual organs to make all of His other spirit sons, the angels? No.

    Listen Charles, it is clear from your post that you truly WANT Jesus to be this or that, and you are willing to accept nonsense to make that come true for you.  

    But the bottom line is that God is the one who chose to explain His relationship with Jesus as a “father/son” relationship – knowing full well how we humans would understand such a thing.  

    And there are many different and easy ways God could have chosen to explain multiple persons in a triune Godhead who have all existed from eternity…….. IF that's what He wanted to explain to us.

    But instead, God CHOSE to explain it as a “father/son” relationship.  Let that sink in for a while.

    #372870
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,09:48)
    Mike,

    FIRST OF ALL PATIENCE IF YOU KNOW HOW!


    My patience has run out, Charles.

    I don't know what you want from me, or what point you're even trying to prove. And more than that, I don't really even care.

    #372880
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    God makes men His sons by sharing His Spirit with them.
    The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God

    #372928
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2014,13:28)
    jammin,

    Your post isn't worthy of a response.  Suffice to say that your Mr. Wallace said it right:  John wrote 1:1 in such a way to keep us from identifying the Word with God.

    Anything else is just your and his additions to what John wrote.

    Btw, if my father is a man, and if I share his nature, then I am also A man.  I am not the SAME man, or the SAME being as my father.

    Neither is Jesus the SAME god, or the SAME being as his own Father and God, Jehovah.


    corrrect mike! you got it. you are a MAN! of course you are not your father but you both have the same nature, MAN!

    christ is not the father. but they have the same nature, God.

    that is whay wallace told us that Christ is God. you can read that on the latter part of his statement.

    it is very clear that you are decieved by satan mike. may God open your eyes.

    #372929
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2014,10:37)
    Jammin,

    If you are a believer and your spirit exists in the form of man then you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.


    i am a believer. i do exist in the form of man.

    what about you? what is your form? are you not MAN by nature? yes or no?

    #372933
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 09 2014,19:22)
    [quote=kerwin,Mar. 08 2014,10:34][/quote]

    Quote
    God is not unique in his righteousness as Jesus and the angels are like him in true holiness and righteousness.  In addition believers are called to put on their new selves created like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    Kerwin,

    YOU REALLY ARE IN A BAD STATE!

    UNLESS WITH THE WORD LIKE YOU ARE IN NO WAY UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE ENTIRE CREATION IS IN A WAY PARALLEL WITH IT'S CREATOR!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    It is not my word but God's word that calls believers to “put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”,Ephesians 4:24 You either choose to believe that or not. That choice is what faith and testing your heart is all about.

    #372934
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 10 2014,19:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2014,10:37)
    Jammin,

    If you are a believer and your spirit exists in the form of man then you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.


    i am a believer. i do exist in the form of man.

    what about you? what is your form? are you not MAN by nature? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    Are you confessing to be a mere man, a man without the Spirit of God. Or do you not understand that the Spirit forms your new self like God in true righteousness and holiness and so your spirit is renewed in his likeness, Ephesians 4:24?

Viewing 20 posts - 15,801 through 15,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account