John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,481 through 15,500 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #371325
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Feb. 17 2014,01:02][/quote]

    Quote
    One *has to be* baptised with the HS to receive the HS.

    Wakeup,

    NO, NOT EXACTLY!

    A PERSON  BAPTISED IN THE TRUTH, NOT WHEN HIS PARENTS BAPTISE HIM!

    READ AND DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    John3:8 The Spirit breatheth WHERE HE WILL;

    OK? HE DETERMINES WHOM HE WANTS, HE IS RULING, HE IS IN THIS WORLD THROUGH BIRTHS NOW, BY JUSTICE!

    SATAN NOW HAS TO GO AFTER ALL THOSE WHO ARE BORN, BECAUSE HE LOST OWNERSHIP OF ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH! SATAN AND CO ARE RULING IN THE AIR NOW, IN NO OTHER PLACE! HE LOST ALL RIGHTS, ACCEPT ON THOSE WHO COMMIT SINS, SINCE THEY OPTED TO DO SO! EVEN CHRISTIANS COULD BE IN THAT STATE!

    John8:35 Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but THE SON ABIDETH FOREVER

    SO THE SON, THE WORD WHO WAS SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, IS IN ALL SOULS FOREVER!

    36 If therefore the son shall make you free, YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED AND HOW!

    SO THE HOLY SPIRIT, IS WITHIN THE WORD IN ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH! WORKING ALL THE TIME AND HE BREATHS WHERE HE WANTS!

    NOT THROUGH SOMEONE ELSE, LIKE BAPTISM!

    BAPTISM IS ONLY A CONFIRMATION BY THE MOUTH FROM THE BELIEVER, BUT UNLESS HE LIVES IN CHRIST HE WONT BE SAVED,

    and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    SO A PERSON IS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT,WHEN HE HEARS HIM, NOT WHEN HE IS BAPTISED!

    ALSO THAT PERSON WHO HEARS THE HOLY SPIRIT, HE ONLY DO SO DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS WORKING IN HIM ALL THE TIME SINCE BIRTH NOT FROM THE TIME THAT HE WAS BAPTISED!

    YOU STILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS:

    READ AGAIN:

    Matthew 8:9 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel.

    11And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    13And Jesus said to the centurion: Go, and as thou hast believed, so be it done to thee. And the servant was healed at the same hour.

    NOW ANSWER: WHY THOSE WHO COME FROM THE EAST AND THE WEST ARE IN HEAVEN, IN SPITE OF THAT THEY WERE NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM!

    BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM ENDED IN HELL?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371326
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Feb. 17 2014,01:02][/quote]

    Quote
    Only them that are *worshipping* false gods.

    Wakeup,

    MOST CHRISTIANS WORSHIP MODERN FALSE GODS!

    THE STORY THOUGH IS THE OPPOSITE OF HOW IT WAS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT NOW SATAN MUST WORK AND CHASE SOULS TO GRABBED THEM FROM THE WORD'S GRIP! FROM BIRTH,

    NOW THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN
    THE WORD

    ,AND SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM THE AIR ARE BATTLING TO TAKE THEM!

    WHERE BEFORE REDEMPTION SATAN OWNED THEM FROM BIRTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371332
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2014,23:22)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,10:18)
    They called a human king god……….


    So then, even in YOUR understanding of Hebrews 1:8-9, Jesus was called a god?

    So that pretty much substantiates my point #1, right?

    Please say so for the record.


    Mike,

    I already admitted the human kings that sit on the throne of David are called gods. Jesus is the first of those kings as his kingdom includes all things that are in heaven and on earth. He is the firstborn of all creation to David's firstborn of the earth. He is not an angel as you claim when you say he is a god.

    I used Psalm 104:1-4 to point out that other things were created before the angels were created. Are you going to claim, contrary to Scripture” that God “made winds his messengers” before he “stretched out the heavens like a tent” and made “flames of fire his servants” before he laid “the beams of his upper chambers on their waters”?

    #371333
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2014,23:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,10:26)
    Mike,

    Jesus is not an angel of God or of Satan.  The angels were created after the waters, the clouds, the winds, at the least.


    Yes Kerwin,

    I am well aware that one of the reasons you don't accept the scriptures that say Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation, and the one through whom God created all other things in heaven and on earth, is because you have a backwards understanding of the creation account in Genesis.

    As far as I know, you are the ONLY one who understands the Genesis account the way you do.

    So basically, your FLAWED understanding of one aspect of scriptural teaching is causing you to stumble on a different aspect of scriptural teaching.

    But in your own understanding, SOMETHING besides “God Himself” was WITH “God Himself” in the beginning, and God created ALL THINGS through that “something other than God”.

    So YOUR OWN understanding contradicts YOUR OWN understanding.


    Mike,

    God's word is not created. You claim the son was the first creation which is based on you flawed understanding.

    #371334
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD

    #371335
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 16 2014,23:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,03:03)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 16 2014,09:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,07:23)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 16 2014,01:02)
    Carmel.

    Just as a computer is infected by men,
    So also men did to the bible.
    But God also is a wise God; He knows that.
    Therefore he must have preserved his Word,
    against those viruses, So we can still find the truth.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    No one has infected the Holy Spirit.  Don't you believe God is a living God?


    Kerwin.

    Yes that is true therefore the true Word of God
    is still in tact with us.

    Satan did infect the Word of God in the garden.
    He said the opposite to God's Words.
    He said ; no you will not die,but you will live as gods.

    He has been doing this since then; to now.
    He does not rest;for he knows his time is short.
    Dont be ignorent of this. Satan is working double time today.
    He has INFILTRATED *ALL* things.His main focus is the true Word of God. But God is greater than he.

    Satan can not touch the Word God has preserved
    for His true children.The lovers of God *IN TRUTH*.

    *God will draw them* to the truth. No one can have an excuse,
    for not finding the truth,by saying that the Word has been corruppted by satan.Sorry God not my fault,I am just a man.

    1. He has not been seeking.
    2.He has been seeking, and swallowed what ever is there
      without considering any contradictions.Depending on the
      scribes, instead on the HS.
    3. He should have moved on with prayers,and not stayed
       with a book that is corrupted. He should have moved on;
       untill he has found,the book that has it all in harmony.
       With strong prayers.

    Love the truth above all books or all pride.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Eve did not die when she ate the fruit she became mortal.  Satan speaks like a lawyer and the written word is one of his weapons.  He does the same with Scripture but the Holy Spirit speaks the truth even when the words have been corrupted.  God's word is always preserved in his Holy Spirit.


    Kerwin.

    The HS will not come untill you show a genuine heart.
    A searching Mind will compare scripture with scripture.
    If contradictions occur he will not continue reading that book.
    He will find another book.Knowing that satan has infected
    many translations. A genuine heart can not ignore that.

    It all depends on how genuine the spirit is in searching.
    How hungry the heart is for truth.

    wakeup.


    Wakeuup,

    The Holy Spirit occupies many roles. God uses it to teach those who lack knowledge. It can teach either externally or internally though the later is the only way it can teach all things.

    There is one or more passages that speak of those that are given/drawn to the Son but I am not finding them because I am not remembering the exact words I require to do a search,

    #371336
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.

    #371344
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,

    #371345
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,08:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,


    T,

    According to Scripture David is the firstborn of earth, Psalms 87:27.  Where does that Adam?

    #371346
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,10:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,08:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,


    T,

    According to Scripture David is the firstborn of earth, Psalms 87:27.  Where does that Adam?


    k

    you should reset your scripture it does not support your claim

    #371348
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Feb. 13 2014,23:32][/quote]

    Quote
    There is no such as NEW OR OLD HOLY SPIRIT.
    Jesus promised the apostles the HS, and that promise was fulfilled at pantecost. That's all.

    Wakeup,

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT!

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW WAY!

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW TIMES!

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW PROCESS OF SALVATION!

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW MESSIAH!

    THERE’S OLD AND NEW SPIRIT!

    THER’S OLD AND  NEW GOD!

    HE SAID:

    I WILL BE THEIR GOD! SO THE OLD GOD WAS NOT THEIR GOD, THEREFORE HE CHANGED IN ORDER TO BE THEIR NEW GOD! IN JESUS CHRIST!

    THE OLD GOD, COULDN’T DIE, THE NEW GOD DIED!  AND BOTH THE OLD AND THE NEW BECAME THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    GO AND TELL MY BRETHREN I WILL BE IN THE GLORY OF MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, IN THE GLORY OF MY GOD AND YOUR GOD!

    Matthew 17:5: And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: HEAR HIM

    NOT IN THE SAME OLD WAY YOU DIDN’T HEAR ME IN THE OLD TIMES, BUT IN THE NEW WAY   IN ORDER TO HEAR YOU! FOR THE NEW TIMES!

    IN RELATION TO  YOUR POST REGARDING GOD NEVER CHANGES, I AGREE, BUT AS I SAID THE DEITY NEVER CHANGES, BUT:

    THE DEITY ESTABLISHED THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO , WHAT HE COULDN’T DO AS THE DEITY !

    SO TO MAKE CLEAR REGARDING THESE CHANGES

    READ REFLECT AND DISCERN THE TRUTH! I CAN SEE QUITE A LOT OF CHANGES IN JOHN'S VERSES HEREUNDER

    1John5: 6 This is he that came by WATER AND BLOOD, Jesus Christ: not by WATER only, but by WATER AND BLOOD. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth.
    And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

    SO TO START WITH:

    JOHN DECLARED THAT THE WORD WHICH LEFT THE FATHER SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD REV 13:8 WAS A TWO SPIRIT FUNCTION:

    THE WATER SIGNIFIES THE HOLY SPIRIT THE BLOOD SIGNIFIES THE SON

    THEREFORE THE SON'S SPIRIT,  AND THE HOLY SPIRIT

    SUPPORTED BY THE FATHER FROM HEAVEN! IS  

    THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD!

    THE WORD

    ALL BY HIM!

    THAT’S ENOUGH FOR NOW!

    I WILL POST QUITE ABREVIATED POSTS, IN ORDER TO CONFIRM AND MAKE CLEAR NOT JUST FOR YOU, THAT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD :

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT CHANGED DRASTICALLY FOR THE SAKE OF GOD’S KINGDOM, AND MANY WERE FIRST AND BECAME LAST, AND MANY WERE LAST AND BECAME FIRST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371349
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Feb. 11 2014,08:46][/quote]

    Quote
    If God's Holy Spirit was automatically given to all creatures already, Jesus' words above would be unnecessary and senseless.

    Mike,

    Since you felt to comment regarding the authority which the Holy Spirit. acquired within THE WORD<

    ARE YOU ALSO  READY TO GIVE YOUR VIEWS, REGARDING WHAT I EXPLAINED THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH REDEMPTION

    BECAME  MORE POWERFUL THEN HE WAS WHEN HE LOST HIS ABODE IN ADAM'S SOUL?

    CAN YOU DISCERN THE FACT THAT SINCE SATAN HAD THE RIGHT TO POSSESS ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT DUE TO ADAM'S SIN,

    THE HOLY SPIRIT TOPPLED SATAN ON THE CROSS IN JESUS AS HIS SOUL, AND NOW HE RETAINED WHAT HE LOST IN ADAM AND OCCUPIES ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH TO DECLARE AS JESUS CHRIST CONFIRMED:

    TO ACHIEVE ALL JUSTICE

    IT WOULDN'T BE JUSTIFIED AT ALL IF THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD NOT BE IN THE SAME POSITION AS SATAN WAS THROUGH SIN, WHEN JESUS CHRIST GAVE HIS LIFE TO ERADICATE NOT ONLY SIN BUT ALSO DEATH

    AND ALSO ALLOW SATAN TO PARTICIPATE ONLY FROM THE AIR, AND NOT WITHIN  THE ENTIRE OF OUR CREATION!

    LIKE HE WAS THROUGH SIN?

    COMMENT PLEASE! UNLESS I TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT YOU DO AGREE WITH ME!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #371353
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,08:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,


    T,

    John 14 teaches us that the word became flesh and so now the word is flesh. Jesus is light. God is love. Flesh is now an attribute of the word though it was not always so. Light is an attribute of Jesus and love is an attribute of God.

    #371354
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,11:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,10:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,08:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,


    T,

    According to Scripture David is the firstborn of earth, Psalms 87:27.  Where does that Adam?


    k

    you should reset your scripture it does not support your claim


    T,

    There is no Psalms 87:27 as I misrepresented the address. Psalms 89:27 is where God states he appointed David the firstborn of the earth. According to you the word firstborn means David was born before any creation of earth. including Adam. If it does not then what does it mean?

    #371356
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,20:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,11:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,10:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,08:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,06:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2014,06:07)
    k

    not God's word ,but THE WORD


    T,

    God's word is the word.


    k

    you are not with your words ;THE WORD is a being as per John 1;14

    do really not understand that God created millions of angels being that work for him night and day ,

    and that as per Col;1;15-21 Christ is the first born of all creation ,

    even Satan was created and working for God until he start to work for himself ,


    T,

    According to Scripture David is the firstborn of earth, Psalms 87:27.  Where does that Adam?


    k

    you should reset your scripture it does not support your claim


    T,

    There is no Psalms 87:27 as I misrepresented the address.  Psalms 89:27 is where God states he appointed David the firstborn of the earth. According to you the word firstborn means David was born before any creation of earth. including Adam.  If it does not then what does it mean?


    k

    I have exalted a young man from among the people.
    Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant;
    with my sacred oil I have anointed him.
    Ps 89:21 My hand will sustain him;
    surely my arm will strengthen him.
    Ps 89:22 No enemy will subject him to tribute;
    no wicked man will oppress him.
    Ps 89:23 I will crush his foes before him
    and strike down his adversaries.
    Ps 89:24 My faithful love will be with him,
    and through my name his horn will be exalted.
    Ps 89:25 I will set his hand over the sea,
    his right hand over the rivers.
    Ps 89:26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father,
    my God, the Rock my Savior.’
    Ps 89:27 I will also appoint him my firstborn,
    the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
    Ps 89:28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
    and my covenant with him will never fail.
    Ps 89:29 I will establish his line forever,
    his throne as long as the heavens endure.

    Ps 89:30 “If his sons forsake my law
    and do not follow my statutes,
    Ps 89:31 if they violate my decrees
    and fail to keep my commands,
    Ps 89:32 I will punish their sin with the rod,
    their iniquity with flogging;
    Ps 89:33 but I will not take my love from him,
    nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
    Ps 89:34 I will not violate my covenant
    or alter what my lips have uttered.
    Ps 89:35 Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
    and I will not lie to David—

    do you understand those scriptures ???

    #371357
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    I believe I do. It is a Psalm about David written in the voice of God. It is a maskil, a song/poem of contemplation, It is of Ethan the Ezrahite. The author is mentioned in 1 Kings 4:31 as being one of the wise. Solomon is said to be wiser than him.

    #371358
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Will you please answer my question?

    #371359
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy

    #371363
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,17:50)
    Mike,

    I already admitted the human kings that sit on the throne of David are called gods.


    Good. So my point #1 stands as FACT, right?

    On to point #2……. Can you refute it?

    #371364
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,17:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2014,23:30)

    But in your own understanding, SOMETHING besides “God Himself” was WITH “God Himself” in the beginning, and God created ALL THINGS through that “something other than God”.

    So YOUR OWN understanding contradicts YOUR OWN understanding.


    Mike,

    God's word is not created.  You claim the son was the first creation which is based on you flawed understanding.


    Forget “created”, Kerwin.

    One of your claims is that there couldn't have been anything other than God before God created a “place” for that other thing to be.

    Yet your other claim is that something OTHER THAN God was WITH God before God started to created “places” and other things.

    See how those two claims by you contradict each other?

    Also, despite what exactly you think “the Word” is, it was either ALWAYS right there at God's side – which would mean that God AND something OTHER THAN God existed side by side from eternity……………..

    OR…………..

    God brought this “Word” forth, and caused it to have an existence at some point – which would mean that “the Word” had a BEGINNING to its existence.

    Which one of those two do you believe?

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