John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,501 through 15,520 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #371365
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 17 2014,00:25)
    COMMENT PLEASE! UNLESS I TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT YOU DO AGREE WITH ME!


    Don't ever make that mistake, Charles.  You will be wrong 99% of the time.   :;):

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 17 2014,00:25)
    …….SATAN HAD THE RIGHT TO POSSESS ALL SOULS FROM BIRTH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SELECT DUE TO ADAM'S SIN………


    I have never heard such a thing, nor can I read anything about it in scripture.

    And this is why I often choose not to comment, Charles.  It's not because I agree with you, but because your claims are so far off from what the scriptures actually teach that I often don't know HOW to answer them, or if it's even worth my time to TRY.

    It's like Colter and his Urantia Book.  I like Colter personally, but usually don't converse with him at length because we are speaking different languages.  He doesn't adhere to the scriptures that I consider to be inspired by God. So what's the point?

    Likewise, even though I personally like you, most of the things you preach here are things I've NEVER seen in any scripture – nor are you able to show us which scriptures those teachings came from when asked.  So what's the point?  It's like we are speaking different languages.

    I'm still waiting for an ADEQUATE explanation as to why Jesus would say the Father will GIVE the Holy Spirit to those who ask – if all of us are already filled with the Holy Spirit without asking.

    #371367
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,01:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy


    T,

    Hardly as the man was speaking of David in either his own court or the court of his son Solomon.

    #371368
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2014,06:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2014,09:57)
    You have chosen to remain blind and follow the teachings of men rather than the teachings of God.


    That's YOU, Kerwin.  Here, let me remind you of the things said about “the Word”, which are also said about “Jesus”……

    The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1.  The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.

    1.  And the Word was a god:  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

    2.  He was with God in the beginning:  (John 17:5)

    3.  All things were made through him:  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

    4.  In him was life, and that life was the light of men:  (John 5:26, John 8:12)

    5.  The light shines in the darkness:  (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

    6.  John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light:  (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

    7.  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world:  (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

    8.  Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him:  (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

    9.  He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

    10.  but his own did not receive him:  (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

    11.  to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God:  (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)

    12.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us:  (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)

    13.  We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten:  (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)

    14.  who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.:  (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)

    15.  John testified concerning him.:  (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)

    16.  He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”:  (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)


    Jest bouncing so it is easier to be found.

    #371369
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,08:52)
    According to you the word firstborn means David was born before any creation of earth. including Adam.


    The word “firstborn”, like the word “word”, has more than one meaning in scripture, Kerwin.

    But just because “firstborn” CAN sometimes refer to a high-ranking status instead of to actual childbirth, doesn't mean it HAS TO.

    In the case of David, it is said that God will ASCRIBE to him the title of “firstborn/most exalted” of the KINGS OF THE EARTH.

    So in that case, our common sense tells us that God isn't referring to a LITERAL firstborn. We already know that many humans lived on earth BEFORE David – so that is our first clue. Secondly, a LITERAL firstborn isn't “appointed”, or “granted” that position. And thirdly, David was appointed to be the firstborn (highest status) of “THE KINGS OF THE EARTH”.

    So these three things tell us that the title “firstborn”, in the case of David, is a GIVEN title which represents his high status in the eyes of God.

    On the other hand, in the case of Jesus, he is called the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE. And of course, that still COULD BE a title representing his high status among all created things.

    BUT………… it is also said that he was the “beginning of the creation by God”. So when we take that into consideration, “firstborn of all creation” is looking more and more like a LITERAL title, and not a GIVEN one.

    And by the time we also take into account the fact that all things came FROM God, and THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ, that title is seeming more and more LITERAL.

    And when we add in the fact that ALL THINGS, whether in heaven or on earth, whether visible or invisible, were created THROUGH Jesus, it's beginning to be a no-brainer.

    And when we add in the fact that Jesus' origins were from the ancient past, and that he was existing in the form of God BEFORE emptying himself to be made in the likeness of a human being, we have a slam dunk.

    So do you understand that David can't possibly be the LITERAL firstborn, while all the scriptural facts point to Jesus being the LITERAL firstborn?

    #371370
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,03:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,17:50)
    Mike,

    I already admitted the human kings that sit on the throne of David are called gods.


    Good.  So my point #1 stands as FACT, right?

    On to point #2…….   Can you refute it?


    The word that was made flesh has been a god in the sense he was made a human king when he was made lord of all things in heaven and on earth. The Son was not a god before he was conceived in Mary's womb.

    #371371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,16:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,03:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,17:50)
    Mike,

    I already admitted the human kings that sit on the throne of David are called gods.


    Good.  So my point #1 stands as FACT, right?

    On to point #2…….   Can you refute it?


    The word that was made flesh has been a god in the sense he was made a human king when he was made lord of all things in heaven and on earth.   The Son was not a god before he was conceived in Mary's womb.


    We're done with point #1, Kerwin. The Word who was with God in the beginning was also a god.

    And Jesus is called a god in at least one scripture, right?

    End of point #1.

    On to point #2.

    #371375
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    We have discussed John 17:5 before and I simply do not see it as you do.

    #371379
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,04:18)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,01:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy


    T,

    Hardly as the man was speaking of David in either his own court or the court of his son Solomon.


    k

    well ,you tell me how this guy can do this ;???

    Ps 89:1 I will sing of the LORD'S great love forever;
    with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.
    Ps 89:2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
    that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

    show me how he could do that

    #371384
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,17:08)
    Mike,

    We have discussed John 17:5 before and I simply do not see it as you do.


    And that's okay for right now, Kerwin.

    Because I'm wanting you to scripturally REFUTE my points.

    You can't refute #1, because the Greek could be translated as “and the Word was a god” – and we all know that Jesus IS called a god in scripture.

    And you can't refute #2, because the most logical understanding of John 17:5 is that Jesus was physically WITH God before the world began, and had a great amount of glory then and there.

    So you can pretend that it talks about the glory that was with God in the beginning, and not Jesus who was with God in the beginning, but the words “I WAS HAVING” make your objection seem weak and biased.  Because you are arguing for the most illogical and asinine way those words could possibly be construed – just so you don't have to accept the logical and sensible way.

    But no matter how YOU choose to understand 17:5, you can't logically fault the way I understand it. There is no way on earth that you could make a case that it can't be understood as Jesus having glory in God's presence before the world was created.

    Which means you CAN'T scripturally refute my point #2 either. Because “the Word” was with God in the beginning, and 17:5 is most logically understood as “Jesus” being with God in the beginning.

    Shall we try #3?

    #371385
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Btw Kerwin,

    Just the fact that you can't scripturally refute point #1 is enough to make the following words you posted to jammin null and void:

    “Jammin,

    What you says proves nothing and if you were not blind you would see that. You have chosen to remain blind and follow the teachings of men rather than the teachings of God.”

    Let's see how null and void those words become when it turns out that you can't scripturally refute ANY of those points.

    #371388
    jammin
    Participant

    Mike we know that kerwin wants to play and doesnt want to listen to the word of God. Kerwin always deny the truth of the bible. I remember when i told kerwin to make his bible so that he can defend his man made doctrine.

    #371395
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,03:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2014,17:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2014,23:30)

    But in your own understanding, SOMETHING besides “God Himself” was WITH “God Himself” in the beginning, and God created ALL THINGS through that “something other than God”.

    So YOUR OWN understanding contradicts YOUR OWN understanding.


    Mike,

    God's word is not created.  You claim the son was the first creation which is based on you flawed understanding.


    Forget “created”, Kerwin.

    One of your claims is that there couldn't have been anything other than God before God created a “place” for that other thing to be.

    Yet your other claim is that something OTHER THAN God was WITH God before God started to created “places” and other things.

    See how those two claims by you contradict each other?

    Also, despite what exactly you think “the Word” is, it was either ALWAYS right there at God's side – which would mean that God AND something OTHER THAN God existed side by side from eternity……………..

    OR…………..

    God brought this “Word” forth, and caused it to have an existence at some point – which would mean that “the Word” had a BEGINNING to its existence.

    Which one of those two do you believe?


    Mike,

    God is love therefore love was with God before anything was created.
    God's word comes forth from the mouth of God and therefore was not created. By it God created all things that were created.

    #371396
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,04:18)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,01:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy


    T,

    Hardly as the man was speaking of David in either his own court or the court of his son Solomon.


    k

    well ,you tell me how this guy can do this ;???

    Ps 89:1 I will sing of the LORD'S great love forever;
    with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.
    Ps 89:2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
    that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

    show me how he could do that


    T,

    It is the singer saying he will be one of those that sing of the Lord's great love forever. You already know of those who sing before the throne so you know the answer to how he can do that.

    #371397
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,06:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2014,17:08)
    Mike,

    We have discussed John 17:5 before and I simply do not see it as you do.


    And that's okay for right now, Kerwin.

    Because I'm wanting you to scripturally REFUTE my points.

    You can't refute #1, because the Greek could be translated as “and the Word was a god” – and we all know that Jesus IS called a god in scripture.

    And you can't refute #2, because the most logical understanding of John 17:5 is that Jesus was physically WITH God before the world began, and had a great amount of glory then and there.

    So you can pretend that it talks about the glory that was with God in the beginning, and not Jesus who was with God in the beginning, but the words “I WAS HAVING” make your objection seem weak and biased.  Because you are arguing for the most illogical and asinine way those words could possibly be construed – just so you don't have to accept the logical and sensible way.

    But no matter how YOU choose to understand 17:5, you can't logically fault the way I understand it.  There is no way on earth that you could make a case that it can't be understood as Jesus having glory in God's presence before the world was created.

    Which means you CAN'T scripturally refute my point #2 either.  Because “the Word” was with God in the beginning, and 17:5 is most logically understood as “Jesus” being with God in the beginning.

    Shall we try #3?


    Mike,

    I pointed out your flaw in one because you believe Jesus is an angel and Scriptures attests angels were not created before everything else. It also claims Jesus is a man.

    I pointed out your flaw in two though you refuse to see that it is a flaw. All that passage claims is that Jesus' glory was with God in the beginning. You are reading into what you want to see.

    1 Cor 8:6 does not even mention creation so it seems you believe “all things” literally means “all things” and is neither a general statement or one that apiece to a specific type of all things. An example of the later is that the spirit teaches all things. Of course Paul calls Jesus Lord and he claimed that was made Lord of all things in heaven and on earth after he was resurrected. It seems reasonable Paul was speaking of that.

    #371408
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,20:21)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,04:18)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,01:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy


    T,

    Hardly as the man was speaking of David in either his own court or the court of his son Solomon.


    k

    well ,you tell me how this guy can do this ;???

    Ps 89:1 I will sing of the LORD'S great love forever;
    with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.
    Ps 89:2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
    that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

    show me how he could do that


    T,

    It is the singer saying he will be one of those that sing of the Lord's great love forever.   You already know of those who sing before the throne so you know the answer to how he can do that.


    K

    Ps 89:3 You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
    I have sworn to David my servant,
    Ps 89:4 ‘I will establish your line forever
    and make your throne firm through all generations.’ ”

    AND NOW WHO IS THIS THAT THE GUY TALKS ABOUT ???

    #371415
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 17 2014,20:53)
    Mike we know that kerwin wants to play and doesnt want to listen to the word of God. Kerwin always deny the truth of the bible. I remember when i told kerwin to make his bible so that he can defend his man made doctrine.


    Kerwin is a diligent studier of scriptures.  He searches high and low for the truth of the matter, like I do.  He's not afraid of doing some research to sort things out.

    But many times he takes it too far, because he already knows what he WANTS to believe, and that DESIRE blocks out the most common sense meaning of a particular scripture.

    Here's an example of what he so often does.

    Let's say the scripture is sensibly translated as, The mother took her little girl to the candy store, and the little girl walked back home eating a lollipop.

    Now Kerwin doesn't WANT this scripture to be about a girl eating a lollipop, so he searches tirelessly for other things those Hebrew or Greek words could possibly mean.

    And he finds out that the word translated as “eating” has a rarely-used meaning of “crunching”.  And he finds out that the word translated as “lollipop” can, on very rare occasions, metaphorically refer to “a mountain”.

    So then, loaded with this new information and his desire to NOT have the scripture be about a girl eating a lollipop, he sets out to convince us that the verse is REALLY about a girl “crunching a mountain”. :)

    And all we can say is, “Yes Kerwin, those Hebrew words COULD mean “crunching” and “mountain”, but is that the MOST LOGICAL definitions of those words IN THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT?”

    And at that point, there is no way we can “win” – because Kerwin will insist that a girl leaving a CANDY STORE would most naturally CRUNCH A MOUNTAIN on the way home – instead of EATING A LOLLIPOP.  :D

    In his haste to find alternate definitions, he completely loses sight of the CONTEXT – which in this case involved a CANDY STORE.

    So he opts for his new-found definitions, and just PRETENDS that they make perfect sense in that context.  

    And all because he simply doesn't WANT to accept the most sensible translation, because it goes against the doctrine he made up in his own mind.

    But what can we do? That's King Kerwin for you…….. and we can't change him. :cool:

    #371416
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,08:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2014,03:51)

    Forget “created”, Kerwin.

    One of your claims is that there couldn't have been anything other than God before God created a “place” for that other thing to be.

    Yet your other claim is that something OTHER THAN God was WITH God before God started to created “places” and other things.

    See how those two claims by you contradict each other?

    Also, despite what exactly you think “the Word” is, it was either ALWAYS right there at God's side – which would mean that God AND something OTHER THAN God existed side by side from eternity……………..

    OR…………..

    God brought this “Word” forth, and caused it to have an existence at some point – which would mean that “the Word” had a BEGINNING to its existence.

    Which one of those two do you believe?


    Mike,

    God's word comes forth from the mouth of God and therefore was not created.   By it God created all things that were created.


    And if this “Word” came forth from the mouth of God, then it was BROUGHT FORTH by God, Kerwin.  That means it wasn't always there, but BEGAN to be at the moment God brought it forth from Himself.

    And let's face it, before God created the heavens and stars and planets, those things didn't exist, right?  So unless the elements those things are made of had already existed from eternity, God also brought those things forth from Himself.  Yet you say those things ARE created.   Hmmm………..

    So here are your choices:  Either “the Word” is the actual BEING of God Almighty Himself, or it is not.

    If it is NOT, then your choices are as follows:

    1.  This thing that is NOT God has existed from eternity along with God, and therefore God was never alone.

    2.  This thing that is NOT God had a beginning.

    Which one, Kerwin?

    #371419
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,08:39)
    Mike,

    I pointed out your flaw in one because you believe Jesus is an angel and Scriptures attests angels were not created before everything else.  It also claims Jesus is a man.

    I pointed out your flaw in two though you refuse to see that it is a flaw.  All that passage claims is that Jesus' glory was with God in the beginning.  You are reading into what you want to see.


    The fact that Jesus was also a human being ISN'T a flaw in my belief – if Jesus was indeed existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being……… like scripture clearly says.  So let's drop that one right now, and never bring it up again, okay?  Because your claim that Jesus was a “man” will NEVER prohibit Jesus from having been something else BEFORE he became flesh.

    Also, even if we were to understand the creation account the way that you ALONE understand it, there is nothing in your understanding that would prohibit God from BRINGING FORTH someone or something from Himself, and THEN creating all other things through that someone or something.  In fact, you believe that's the way it DID happen.  It's just that you believe it was a “something”, and not a “someone”.

    So even if God created “the messengers”, in general, AFTER He created all these other things, like you ALONE believe, is there a scripture that would prohibit God from creating His main Messenger BEFORE He created the universe, and then all the OTHER messengers?  If there is, please show it to me.

    As for point #2, you have shown no flaw whatsoever.  The only flaw is in YOUR understanding that John 17:5 refers to a GLORY that was with God before the world began, when it is clear that Jesus referred to a glory “HE WAS HAVING” with God before the world began.

    So like I've said twice now, you have not, and cannot, scripturally refute #1 or #2.

    It's time for you to try to refute #3.

    #371443
    jammin
    Participant

    a true christian accepts what is written in the bible. he or she never creates his or her own doctrine. their faith is according to the bible. if the bible says the Word is Christ then we should accept that. no more no less

    #371447
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 19 2014,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,20:21)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,04:18)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2014,01:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2014,01:01)
    T,

    Will you please answer my question?


    k

    how could i ,it is a prophecy


    T,

    Hardly as the man was speaking of David in either his own court or the court of his son Solomon.


    k

    well ,you tell me how this guy can do this ;???

    Ps 89:1 I will sing of the LORD'S great love forever;
    with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.
    Ps 89:2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
    that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

    show me how he could do that


    T,

    It is the singer saying he will be one of those that sing of the Lord's great love forever.   You already know of those who sing before the throne so you know the answer to how he can do that.


    K

    Ps 89:3 You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
    I have sworn to David my servant,
    Ps 89:4 ‘I will establish your line forever
    and make your throne firm through all generations.’ ”

    AND NOW WHO IS THIS THAT THE GUY TALKS ABOUT ???


    T,

    “I have sworn to David my servant, “

    Sound like he is speaking to David. What say you?

Viewing 20 posts - 15,501 through 15,520 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account