John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,681 through 14,700 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #362256
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,16:49)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 18 2013,06:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2013,15:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 17 2013,06:12)
    Still no answer kerwin?


    Journey,

    I have nothing that I have not answered for you.  You have not answered and stated whether or not you believe God is divine and his word is divine.


    and what version is that?what version that says GOD IS LIKE HIS WORD?


    Jammin,

    Right now the conversation is stalled until you choose to either not respond or to answer the questions I asked.


    The truth is you cant give a version that says God is like his word. That is only your imagination in jn1:1 . Poor kerwin.

    #362259
    Lightenup
    Participant

    David,
    Is the Father a god?
    Wouldn't 'the God' be 'a god?'
    If so, reading the verse, John 1:1c as 'a god' really doesn't tell us that a god who may be spoken about in 1c is not the God. The article is absent when the scripture is speaking about 'the God' many times. The Greek word 'theos' is written with the article at times and the context is speaking of Jesus, and more than once too. The name Jehovah is identified as Jesus also.

    Whether a theos or elohim is identified as Jehovah should really be the quest.
    The absence of the article does not make a clear case one way or the other.

    #362265
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 18 2013,23:02)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,16:49)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 18 2013,06:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2013,15:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 17 2013,06:12)
    Still no answer kerwin?


    Journey,

    I have nothing that I have not answered for you.  You have not answered and stated whether or not you believe God is divine and his word is divine.


    and what version is that?what version that says GOD IS LIKE HIS WORD?


    Jammin,

    Right now the conversation is stalled until you choose to either not respond or to answer the questions I asked.


    The truth is you cant give a version that says God is like his word. That is only your imagination in jn1:1 . Poor kerwin.


    Jammin,

    I already did as you requested and you have failed to prove that the clause “the word is God” does not mean the word and God share the characteristic of being divine. You are not even willing to admit that both God and his word are divine even though I have asked you several times. You are not very skilled at discussing things. Do some research and get you ducks in a row. I am sure you have the ability if you are courageous enough to strive for it. I hope you have the heart.

    #362267
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin………..Are you really so ignorant that you don't know a Man or being is exactly ask his words are. Why do you think scriptures said man shall give an account of “EVERY Word he has spoken. If a persons word is not Him then why should he be held accountable to his words at all. So now you think God and His words are not the same , So when God say something, we shouldn't believe what he says, because his words are not him right. Jammin God and his word are one and the same and when we a line with those words we become One with him just as Jesus did. That is why Jesus said me and my father are one, (in agreement that is), GET IT?

    peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

    #362268
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    Quote
    I already did as you requested and you have failed to prove that the clause “the word is God”

    THE WORD IS NOT GOD ;BUT IS “OF ” GOD ;WE ALL HAVE WORDS TO SPEAK BUT THEY ARE “OF US INDIVIDUALLY ,” NO ONE IS HIS WORDS ;BUT THE WORDS COMES OUT OF OUR MOUTH WHAT IS THE INSTRUMENT OF DOING SO,AND SO BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE ,BUT THEY ARE NOT US NOR GOD ,BUT CAME OUT OF US

    #362273
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Pierre,
    You ought to study the Targums to find out what the Jews thought of as “the Word of the LORD.” The 'Word' meant something significant to the OT Israelites and they equated the “Word of the LORD” with the LORD when He appeared or spoke to humans.

    #362275
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2013,05:28)
    Pierre,
    You ought to study the Targums to find out what the Jews thought of as “the Word of the LORD.” The 'Word' meant something significant to the OT Israelites and they equated the “Word of the LORD” with the LORD when He appeared or spoke to humans.


    Kathy

    NO.I do not need the teachings of men ,

    and what is in scriptures is fine so tell me my answer ;if you cannot well that means I was right ,right ???

    #362277
    david
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,17:11)

    Quote (david @ Nov. 18 2013,00:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,02:50)
    David,

    Quote
    People really don't like talking about this, which is highly weird, given that the very first chance ANYONE had who could put an indefinite article in John 1:1, they did!  They did this at a time when koine Greek was still spoken!  They did this with a language based on the Greek alphabet.

    Pure speculation.   We do not even no which language or languages the individual books of the New Testament were written in, much less if a particular manuscript of Coptic is the first chance that an indefinite article can be inserted in.  We do know that there were mere men who wrote manuscripts that were altered from true.  I am not even sure all Coptic manuscripts agree.  As it sits I have better tools for dealing with Koine Greek and English than coptic though even they fall short of being the perfect number of tools or quality of the tools.


    Which part of my statement was “pure speculation”?

    That it was the first language where a choice (of god or “a god”) had to be made?

    Ok, fine, ITS THE FIRST MOMENT THAT WE KNOW OF where translators had to choose to either insert the indefinite article or not insert it.  

    If you know of any earlier languages that had an indefinite article, where they translated the bible, please state it.  

    So, how is it pure speculation?


    David,

    That is better since it is like a Forth Century manuscript.  There may be earlier version but they are versions that may have only ever has one copy.  

    I looked into Coptic, of which there are three language types, I can remember which was one was used but I do know that the indefinite may or may not become an English indefinite.  What you have in both Greek and Coptic is more  like the word is with the theos and the word is theos or the word is the theos and the word is a theos.

    If you look at Trinitaian argument against the common translation of John 1:1 then the word cannot literally be God because the Trinitarian translation of the word theos is either “the Godhead” or “the Father” and Trinitarians do not believe the word is either “the Godhead” or “the Father”.  Those Trinitarians who accept this argument are no opposed to “a god” and view it as support of their Christology.

    Note: the Trinitarians have other definitions but none of which they would be relevant to John 1:1.


    “That is better since it is like a Forth Century manuscript. There may be earlier version but they are versions that may have only ever has one copy. “–kerwin

    Kerwin, I'm not sure you seem to understand why sahedic Coptic is even interesting. Sure, there were manuscripts before the Coptic ones.

    But which of those languages (like English) have an indefinite article?
    NONE.

    I do understand that even having the “a” in there doesn't necessarily mean they meant “a god', but may have meant something more like divine or godlike.
    All we know is that they, who were translating their John 1:1 did so while koine Greek was still spoken, and the ones doing the translating would have been quite familiar with Greek of that time. They based their own alphabet on it, adding a few letters.

    The first people we know of who had the opportunity to do so, had an “a” in there. Maybe it was a mistake on their part, like a copying mistake, since they did make some mistakes, but mathematically, that is remote.

    #362278
    david
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2013,04:43)
    David,
    Is the Father a god?
    Wouldn't 'the God' be 'a god?'
    If so, reading the verse, John 1:1c as 'a god' really doesn't tell us that a god who may be spoken about in 1c is not the God. The article is absent when the scripture is speaking about 'the God' many times. The Greek word 'theos' is written with the article at times and the context is speaking of Jesus, and more than once too. The name Jehovah is identified as Jesus also.

    Whether a theos or elohim is identified as Jehovah should really be the quest.
    The absence of the article does not make a clear case one way or the other.


    LU,

    Howdie

    I agree with almost everything you day. It's not clear. It's only clear once you establish an outside bias one way or the other, and then it seems clear.

    I do t agree that the nam Jehovah is identified as Jesus also, but I don't really feel like going off on that discussion here.

    #362283
    kerwin
    Participant

    David.

    Your wrote:

    Quote
    But which of those languages (like English) have an indefinite article?
    NONE.  

    I do understand that even having the “a” in there doesn't necessarily mean they meant “a god', but may have meant something more like divine or godlike.  
    All we know is that they, who were translating their John 1:1 did so while koine Greek was still spoken, and the ones doing the translating would have been quite familiar with Greek of that time.  They based their own alphabet on it, adding a few letters.  

    The first people we know of who had the opportunity to do so, had an “a” in there.  Maybe it was a mistake on their part, like a copying mistake, since they did make some mistakes, but mathematically, that is remote

    I don't know but I do know that it is unsound to use the word “all” unless you know “all” languages used during that age.  With one example it is more difficult to test if the evidence is sound.  So according to your sources of all the languages they know only this Coptic version has the indefinite article to use and they use it.  

    A certain scholar has recently advanced the hypothesis that the indefinite article as used in John 1:1 on this Coptic language translation has a “qualitative meaning” as if saying the word was a (one) theos.

    Quote
    In a recent issue of The Journal of Theological Studies Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti reason that the indefinite article in the Coptic translation, of John 1:1, has a qualitative meaning. Many such occurrences for qualitative nouns are identified in the Coptic New Testament, including 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Moreover the indefinite article is used to refer to God in Deuteronomy 4:31 and Malachi 2:10.

    I prefer the translation the word was divine or the word was godly even though I suspicion “was” is lousy translation of the Koine Greek verb. From what little I have heard it is the best word to translate the Koine Greek word to.  The inclusion of indefinite does not make a difference to me as I perceive the word as being a possession of God's and John being a poet.

    #362284
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Nov. 02 2013,04:40][/quote]

    Quote
    I clearly do not view humanity as only physical substance.  
    I doubt very much that the Spirit is inside a believer's natural soul.    

    Kerwin,

    Explanation ….

    READ THIS REVELATION:

    People cannot understand the relationship between body, soul and spirit, which makes it difficult to explain to them the working of the spirit. The spirit is in opposition to the body, whereas the soul finds itself between both, thus it effectively has to side with either the body or the spirit but it can never pay attention to both. In the beginning of embodiment as a human being the soul is totally attached to the body. Hence it endeavours to fulfil the body's every desire, that is to say thought, feeling and will. The human soul are wholly focussed on the body which, still consisting of matter itself, also seeks to unite with matter. Thus the person will long for material possessions because they epitomise the body's satisfaction. Therefore the spirit will not come into its own, the soul ignores the spirit's demands, the spirit cannot find acceptance because the body is still stronger and completely occupies the soul, thus dominating its thoughts and aspirations.

    However, the soul can also recognise the worthlessness of earthly things, it can consider its bodily wishes to be unimportant, it can demand more of earthly life than mere material goods, then the spirit comes into its own,Then it will express itself and be listened to by the soul. The soul will start to move in a different direction, it will no longer ask for the body but strive for spiritual values. It will accept being taught, that is, it shall willingly accept what the spirit conveys. Indeed, it will feel happy and pay consistently less attention to the body, or it will try to incline the body to do what the spirit demands of the soul …. to renounce earthly matter in exchange for spiritual knowledge. Now the spirit will be victorious over the body. Both spirit and body try to win the soul for themselves. And as soon as the spirit has succeeded in displacing the desires of the body, it is the stronger ….

    But what is meant by spirit? The spirit is the Divine in the human being;it is that which identifies the human being as God's living creation, the spirit is the bond which connects the human being to the eternal Father- Spirit.

    It is the human being's realisation that he will always be in contact with the Father of eternity. The human being only recognises himself as God's living creation when the spirit becomes active, until then he will merely be conscious of himself as a living being who wants whatever life has to offer. But once the human being recognises himself, the world will no longer mean anything to him. Then he will search for higher values, then his thoughts will be directed towards the  spiritual kingdom, then he will try to make contact with the One Who gave him life, then his thoughts will be right and his  wishes and actions in accordance with divine will. Then the spirit of God will be working within the person. The soul subsequently will give itself to the spirit to be guided and taught so that body, soul and spirit unite at last and seek unity with God, because the human being's spirit constantly strives towards the Father-Spirit to Whom he is, and remains,
    inseparably joined for eternity THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #362290
    terraricca
    Participant

    CHARLES

    there was nothing wrong in God creating men,the problem lays into the choices he made ,taking the right choice would have taken all humanity in a different direction ,but now we are here with the problems we know ,and it is because men are still looking for making the choices that kills them and destroyed the earth ;all of God's creation,

    men his flesh ,and soul ;the fact that he as to breath through his nostrils this is the way he was created just like all the mammals ,

    but his soul as the spirit ,what can stop him from doing what is wrong

    #362291
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    According to Scripture humanity first became a living soul when the breath of life entered his body, Genesis 2:7.  It also tells us that even if the body dies the soul survives for when Rebecca died he soul left he body, Genesis 35:18.  Paul tells us that without our body we are naked and Rebecca's soul was without her body, 2 Corinthians 5:1-3.  Jesus tells us that those that pant for righteousness will receive it, Matthew 5:6,  but those who instead love darkness will not come into the light, John 3:19-21.  It is the soul that pants for God, Psalm 42:1.

    About the Spirit it is written that those who walk by the Spirit have received the righteousness their soul pants for, Galatians 5:22-25.  While those who instead choose to walk by the anti-Spirit fall short of God's glory, Galatians 5:17-21.  It is the soul and body that chooses to walk either by the Spirit or by the Anti-Spirit.

    A human is body and soul and a human walks by a spirit.

    #362294
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 18 2013,19:50)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2013,04:43)
    David,
    Is the Father a god?
    Wouldn't 'the God' be 'a god?'
    If so, reading the verse, John 1:1c as 'a god' really doesn't tell us that a god who may be spoken about in 1c is not the God. The article is absent when the scripture is speaking about 'the God' many times. The Greek word 'theos' is written with the article at times and the context is speaking of Jesus, and more than once too. The name Jehovah is identified as Jesus also.

    Whether a theos or elohim is identified as Jehovah should really be the quest.
    The absence of the article does not make a clear case one way or the other.


    LU,

    Howdie

    I agree with almost everything you day.  It's not clear.  It's only clear once you establish an outside bias one way or the other, and then it seems clear.

    I do t agree that the nam Jehovah is identified as Jesus also, but I don't really feel like going off on that discussion here.


    Howdie David.

    I'm glad we agree on that.

    For the rest, you can take that up here, again, if you are up to it…

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=40

    #362295
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,18:35)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2013,05:28)
    Pierre,
    You ought to study the Targums to find out what the Jews thought of as “the Word of the LORD.” The 'Word' meant something significant to the OT Israelites and they equated the “Word of the LORD” with the LORD when He appeared or spoke to humans.


    Kathy

    NO.I do not need the teachings of men ,

    and what is in scriptures is fine so tell me my answer ;if you cannot well that means I was right ,right ???


    John wrote to the Jews about the Word in a way that they could understand. It helps to know what they understood of 'the Word' and that understanding is found in their Targums. The Targums are not necessarily inspired but they do give the Jewish understanding of what was inspired and in that way, it helps explain John 1:1 and 'the Word.'

    #362297
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 20 2013,01:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,18:35)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2013,05:28)
    Pierre,
    You ought to study the Targums to find out what the Jews thought of as “the Word of the LORD.” The 'Word' meant something significant to the OT Israelites and they equated the “Word of the LORD” with the LORD when He appeared or spoke to humans.


    Kathy

    NO.I do not need the teachings of men ,

    and what is in scriptures is fine so tell me my answer ;if you cannot well that means I was right ,right ???


    John wrote to the Jews about the Word in a way that they could understand. It helps to know what they understood of 'the Word' and that understanding is found in their Targums. The Targums are not necessarily inspired but they do give the Jewish understanding of what was inspired and in that way, it helps explain John 1:1 and 'the Word.'


    Kathy

    the gospel account that John the apostle gives, is given to all gentiles and Jew alike , mainly addressed to those that seeks God and his righteousness ,all true believers now in their hearts that John in 1;1 is talking about Christ being the WORD ;just as it talks about Christ in verse 14-18,and the witnessing of John the baptist ,in 29-34,

    and I do not mention the many other scriptures like Rev;19;13

    the rejection of Christ preexistence is equal to rejecting his sacrifice ;because if Christ was not the only son (THE WORD”) OF God then he would not have come from the father and he could not have seen the father as he says ,and he could not save anyone of us not even his own live ,or pay the ransom to God ,according to scriptures ;

    Ps 49:7 No man can redeem the life of another
    or give to God a ransom for him—
    Ps 49:8 the ransom for a life is costly,
    no payment is ever enough—
    Ps 49:9 that he should live on forever
    and not see decay.

    but then who can redeem us ???

    Isa 49:8 This is what the LORD says:
    “In the time of my favor I will answer you,
    and in the day of salvation I will help you;
    I will keep you and will make you
    to be a covenant for the people,
    to restore the land
    and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
    Isa 49:9 to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
    and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’

    Isa 52:3 For this is what the LORD says:
    “You were sold for nothing,
    and without money you will be redeemed.”

    #362307
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Nov. 17 2013,13:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2013,09:25)

    Does John 1:14 tell us that THE WORD made his dwelling among us and was full of grace and truth?  YES or NO?


    No, Mike, it does not state that.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Hmmmm…………. Then what DOES it say, Marty?

    #362308
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,15:24)
    Jammin,

    I already did as you requested and you have failed to prove that the clause “the word is God” does not mean the word and God share the characteristic of being divine.


    Kerwin,

    What if it said, “and the Word was Abraham Lincoln”?

    Would you believe that the Word actually WAS Abraham Lincoln – as was clearly stated?  Or would you pretend that the words, and the Word WAS Abraham Lincoln” only meant that the word “wore a top hat like Abraham Lincoln”?

    Because that's what you're doing here.  You're PRETENDING that  “x WAS y” really means “x WAS LIKE y”, right? As if the word “WAS” really means “WAS LIKE”, or “SHARED ATTRIBUTES WITH”, right?

    Perhaps you could show an example where someone is said to BE a particular entity, but it really means that they are merely LIKE that other entity.

    #362309
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2013,17:28)
    Pierre,
    You ought to study the Targums to find out what the Jews thought of as “the Word of the LORD.” The 'Word' meant something significant to the OT Israelites and they equated the “Word of the LORD” with the LORD when He appeared or spoke to humans.


    Kathi,

    There are SO MANY times that kind of language is used in the OT. Here's one of them:

    Esther 3:15 NET ©
    The messengers scurried forth with the king’s order.

    The bolded words are actually, “with the word of the king”.

    Should we, being intelligent people, believe that these messengers were carrying the literal words of the king in a box or something? Should we believe the word of the king was a living person, who went along with the messengers?

    If not, then why should we believe “the word of YHWH” means anything other than “the word of the king” in the above verse?

    Too many people adding too much crap into the scriptures.

    #362310
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,22:19)
    I don't know but I do know that it is unsound to use the word “all” unless you know “all” languages used during that age.


    Kerwin,

    Unless you actually know of another language of that time period that DID use an indefinite article, and into which the NT was translated – then why bust David's chops?

    He is making the claim that we've both read in many sources.  So unless you know that he, and those sources, are wrong about it, hush.

    Here, let me lawyer up for David:

    Kerwin, according to the currently known and accepted research into the matter, the Coptic language is the first language into which the NT was translated – that made use of an indefinite article.

    Is that better for you?  Can you prove that there was another “indefinite article language” during or before that time?  If not, shhhhhh………..

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