John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,221 through 14,240 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #359100
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,17:58)
    So your chosen teaching is Jesus emptied himself of power and took on the form of a servant; who was not empty of power, as is revealed by the miracles he did.


    Jesus didn't DO the miracles, Kerwin. God performed the miracles THROUGH Jesus. Would you like the scripture?

    #359101
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,06:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 29 2013,07:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,10:58)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 29 2013,04:53)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,09:28)
    Mike,

    Quote
    .. for Jesus to ever empty himself and take on that lowly flesh form again.

    That does not make sense as a body is a vessel and it is the contents of a vessel you empty not the vessel.


    Kerwin.

    Where is understanding?
    The Word of God as a being with wisdom brought forth *OUT OF* God,before the world was. Was *WITH* God.
    And the Word *WAS* God.*This is when he still was *IN* God*.

    He/Word is the *creator* on God's command/will.
    He came to earth as a man.
    He has given away his power as a creator,
    and humbled himself. He emptied all his power.

    Because of his obedience to his Father;now God has given him *ALL* authority;*meaning* He does not have to ask his Father,for he can make his own decisions.
    His authotity will start in his kingdom for a thousand years.
    And after that He will hand it back to his Father.
    And the Father will be all in all.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I was addressing Mike's teaching not yours.  Yours seems to consistently treat God's Word as an actual being and not as something that is spoken, thought, wrote, or expressed in another way.  The Word that is represented with characteristics of a being in order to teach certain things but not to be thought of as a being.

    So your chosen teaching is Jesus emptied himself of power and took on the form of a servant; who was not empty of power, as is revealed by the miracles he did.


    Kerwin.

    You are ignoring jesis words again and again.
    He said that *HE* had glory with the Father
    *before the world was*.

    John 14:10   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak *not of myself*:
    but the Father that dwelleth in me, **he doeth the works**.

    Remember;the *Father* did all the works,not Jesus.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    God lives in Jesus through his Spirit and before the world God possessed Jesus' glory and held it until the time he would come to inherit it. Hence:

    John 17:5
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    and

    Hebrews 1:4
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    4 being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


    [QUOTE]
    God lives in Jesus through his Spirit and before the world God possessed Jesus' glory and held it until the time he would come to inherit it. Hence:(UNQUOTE).

    JESUS IS IN GOD,AND GOD IS IN JESUS.
    THE WORD OF GOD/JESUS IS IN GOD, AND GOD IS IN HIS WORD/JESUS.
    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN ME.

    JESUS IS NOT JUST ANOTHER PERSON BEARING THE SPIRIT OF GOD. JESUS *IS* THE WORD OF GOD IN GOD.

    YOU ARE CREATING TWO ENTITIES: GOD AND THE PERSON JESUS,IN WHOM THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS.
    FOR GOD IS ONE: GOD AND HIS WORD IN GOD.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS *NO* SAVIOUR.

    IF JESUS IS ANOTHER,THEN THERE ARE TWO.
    GOD AND THE SAVIOUR JESUS;THE MAN YOU SO CALLED
    THE REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD;OR THE SPOKES MAN,
    OR THE MAN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD BUT THROUGH HIS WORD.
    AND HIS WORD YOU FIND IN PRINT,FOR US TO SEEK.
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD WITHOUT READING THE SCRIPTURES.

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called ***The Word of God***.

    IT ALWAYS COMES TO THE WORD OF GOD.
    THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD** AND *HIS WORD* INSIDE GOD,THAT HE BROUGHT FORTH IN THE BEGINNING.
    BY THE *WORD* WAS ALL THINGS MADE.

    GOD CALLED JESUS; GOD IN HEB.1:8.

    wakeup.

    #359108
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 28 2013,19:26)
    Kerwin.

    You are ignoring jesis words again and again.
    He said that *HE* had glory with the Father
    *before the world was*.


    Do you hear that, Kerwin? HE had glory with God before the world began.

    I give up. I've been over and over this with Kerwin, and he constantly ALTERS scriptural words to make his own personal wishes be realized.

    Like instead of “the Word was made flesh”, he pretends “a flesh being EMBODIED the qualities of the Word”, or whatever.

    I'm done with this nonsense. I've better things to do than babysit someone who doesn't really want to know what the scriptures teach unless he can FORCE them to teach what he already believes. I'm tired of dealing with “twisters”.

    I believe Jesus had glory alongside God before the world began, because Jesus is the Word who was with God in the beginning. And although existing alongside God in the form of God, he allowed himself to be emptied and made into a human being so he could die for our sins.

    You all believe whatever you want.

    #359109
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 30 2013,14:56)
    [QUOTE]
    God lives in Jesus through his Spirit and before the world God possessed Jesus' glory and held it until the time he would come to inherit it. Hence:(UNQUOTE).


    Closer, Wakeup. :)

    Now instead of (UNQUOTE) in parenthesis at the end, use [/QUOTE] in brackets. Don't forget the forward slash.

    #359114
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,08:44)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 28 2013,19:26)
    Kerwin.

    You are ignoring jesis words again and again.
    He said that *HE* had glory with the Father
    *before the world was*.


    Do you hear that, Kerwin?  HE had glory with God before the world began.

    I give up.  I've been over and over this with Kerwin, and he constantly ALTERS scriptural words to make his own personal wishes be realized.  

    Like instead of “the Word was made flesh”, he pretends “a flesh being EMBODIED the qualities of the Word”, or whatever.

    I'm done with this nonsense.  I've better things to do than babysit someone who doesn't really want to know what the scriptures teach unless he can FORCE them to teach what he already believes.  I'm tired of dealing with “twisters”.

    I believe Jesus had glory alongside God before the world began, because Jesus is the Word who was with God in the beginning.  And although existing alongside God in the form of God, he allowed himself to be emptied and made into a human being so he could die for our sins.

    You all believe whatever you want.


    MikeB.

    It does not matter how anyone twist or turn the scriptures.
    We know that the scriptures can not be broken.
    If it does not harmonise,it is wrong.

    Thanks for your help.

    wakeup.

    #359139
    kerwin
    Participant

    carmel,

    Quote
    I am afraid you are too far away from the truth, WITH REGARDS TO JESUS CHRIST!

    NOW READ AND REFLECT:
    COLOSSIANS 3:11……………….. BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL

    WHAT IS THE MEANING OF CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL?  

    ISN'T IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT JESUS AS THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR GOD IS  ALL

    THE ENTIRE CREATION,

    AND IN  ALL

    THE ENTIRE CREATION?

    Here is the whole sentence:

    Colossians 3:9-11
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    and it is not saying what you are saying.

    So it appears that you are using a quote from scripture and attempting to apply it to a situation that is already known to be true.  That does not work since I do not agree what you write is true.  Instead I am convinced that Trinitarism is an irrational tenet that requires those that believe in it to either lack knowledge of Scripture or suspend their disbelief.  It is not a teaching that is advanced with true reason as the internal contradictions are many.

    I will use but will you?  That is to be seen.

    Quote
    THE WORD IS LIGHT AS WELL

    I know of nowhere in Scripture where your statement is written.  Since it is not written or derived why should I write it?

    Quote
    AND IF JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD WHICH EMANATED FROM THE FATHER,

    I don't even see that written in the poetic and flowery language that is employed by some parts of Scripture to describe Jesus.  The closest to this statement you write is:

    Hebrews 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote
    THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU, ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE!

    SO JESUS' WORDS ARE SPIRIT, OBVIOUS DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER WITHIN JESUS' SOUL, GOD'S MOUTHPIECE

    God lives in Jesus by his Spirit.  I know of nowhere in Scripture where it states or assumes he is in Jesus' or anyone else's soul.  Replace soul with Spirit and I will agree.

    You have written more but this is all I am answering at this time.  I have no plans to answer the rest though if it should come up again I may address it then.

    #359140
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,03:44)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 28 2013,19:26)
    Kerwin.

    You are ignoring jesis words again and again.
    He said that *HE* had glory with the Father
    *before the world was*.


    Do you hear that, Kerwin?  HE had glory with God before the world began.

    I give up.  I've been over and over this with Kerwin, and he constantly ALTERS scriptural words to make his own personal wishes be realized.  

    Like instead of “the Word was made flesh”, he pretends “a flesh being EMBODIED the qualities of the Word”, or whatever.

    I'm done with this nonsense.  I've better things to do than babysit someone who doesn't really want to know what the scriptures teach unless he can FORCE them to teach what he already believes.  I'm tired of dealing with “twisters”.

    I believe Jesus had glory alongside God before the world began, because Jesus is the Word who was with God in the beginning.  And although existing alongside God in the form of God, he allowed himself to be emptied and made into a human being so he could die for our sins.

    You all believe whatever you want.


    Mike,

    No you are not done with nonsense as you constantly write it.  You even contradict yourself by claiming you believe two different things that disagree with one another.  

    According to you believe in this creature that is not testified as being part of the creation in the OT, who you say was transformed to a human being, is the same person who came in the flesh.  You also claim death was in the world before it entered through Adam's sin.  

    It is not written that a being called the word transformed to a human.  John 1:14 does not say how the word was made flesh but you assume it does.

    No, I cannot say I am done with you no matter how lacking in reason I find your teaching as that within me always hopes you will come to see reason.

    #359141
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    JESUS IS IN GOD,AND GOD IS IN JESUS.
    THE WORD OF GOD/JESUS IS IN GOD, AND GOD IS IN HIS WORD/JESUS.
    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN ME.

    Yes, and believers are in them and they are in believers. It is called the unity of the Spirit. That is also one reason why I wrote God is in Jesus through his Spirit even though it only explicitly written God is in believers by his Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:3-6

    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    JESUS IS NOT JUST ANOTHER PERSON BEARING THE SPIRIT OF GOD. JESUS *IS* THE WORD OF GOD IN GOD.

    YOU ARE CREATING TWO ENTITIES: GOD AND THE PERSON JESUS,IN WHOM THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS.
    FOR GOD IS ONE: GOD AND HIS WORD IN GOD.

    One Lord and one God sounds like two different beings.
    One Mediator and one God sound like two different beings.
    The Father and God of Jesus Christ sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and The Son sounds like two different beings.

    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    John 17:20-23
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    Quote
    BESIDE ME THERE IS *NO* SAVIOUR.

    IF JESUS IS ANOTHER,THEN THERE ARE TWO.
    GOD AND THE SAVIOUR JESUS;THE MAN YOU SO CALLED
    THE REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD;OR THE SPOKES MAN,
    OR THE MAN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    Without God the watchman watches in vain; so without God the Savior saves in vain. God saves through Jesus Christ just like it is written:

    Romans 5:9
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    and

    Romans 5:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Quote
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD BUT THROUGH HIS WORD.
    AND HIS WORD YOU FIND IN PRINT,FOR US TO SEEK.
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD WITHOUT READING THE SCRIPTURES.

    That is not what is written. In fact there are examples in Scripture where God's Word is preached. It is not those that hear or even read that are blessed by God but those who show it is written in their inward beings by doing it.

    Quote
    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called ***The Word of God***.

    Jesus has been called by the name of the Word ever since the Word was made flesh. He was both predestined and foretold to be the one to be so called since before the world began. Anything beyond that you are reading into Scripture.

    Quote
    IT ALWAYS COMES TO THE WORD OF GOD.
    THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD** AND *HIS WORD* INSIDE GOD,THAT HE BROUGHT FORTH IN THE BEGINNING.
    BY THE *WORD* WAS ALL THINGS MADE.

    Your words are true since God speaks his Word from his heart and he certainly spoke his Word in the beginning to create all things that were created.

    Quote
    GOD CALLED JESUS; GOD IN HEB.1:8.

    And the Hebrews are called gods in Scripture:

    Psalm 82:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 I have said, Ye are gods;
    and all of you are children of the most High.

    The writer of Hebrews was quoting from a wedding song that is even to this day used at Jewish weddings.

    #359144
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,14:16)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    JESUS IS IN GOD,AND GOD IS IN JESUS.
    THE WORD OF GOD/JESUS IS IN GOD, AND GOD IS IN HIS WORD/JESUS.
    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN ME.

    Yes, and believers are in them and they are in believers.  It is called the unity of the Spirit.  That is also one reason why I wrote God is in Jesus through his Spirit even though it only explicitly written God is in believers by his Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:3-6

    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    JESUS IS NOT JUST ANOTHER PERSON BEARING THE SPIRIT OF GOD. JESUS *IS* THE WORD OF GOD IN GOD.

    YOU ARE CREATING TWO ENTITIES: GOD AND THE PERSON JESUS,IN WHOM THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS.
    FOR GOD IS ONE: GOD AND HIS WORD IN GOD.

    One Lord and one God sounds like two different beings.
    One Mediator and one God sound like two different beings.
    The Father and God of Jesus Christ sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and The Son sounds like two different beings.

    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    John 17:20-23
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    Quote
    BESIDE ME THERE IS *NO* SAVIOUR.

    IF JESUS IS ANOTHER,THEN THERE ARE TWO.
    GOD AND THE SAVIOUR JESUS;THE MAN YOU SO CALLED
    THE REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD;OR THE SPOKES MAN,
    OR THE MAN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    Without God the watchman watches in vain; so without God the Savior saves in vain.  God saves through Jesus Christ just like it is written:

    Romans 5:9
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    and

    Romans 5:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Quote
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD BUT THROUGH HIS WORD.
    AND HIS WORD YOU FIND IN PRINT,FOR US TO SEEK.
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD WITHOUT READING THE SCRIPTURES.

    That is not what is written. In fact there are examples in Scripture where God's Word is preached.  It is not those that hear or even read that are blessed by God but those who show it is written in their inward beings by doing it.

    Quote
    Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called ***The Word of God***.

    Jesus has been called by the name of the Word ever since the Word was made flesh.  He was both predestined and foretold to be the one to be so called since before the world began.  Anything beyond that you are reading into Scripture.

    Quote
    IT ALWAYS COMES TO THE WORD OF GOD.
    THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD** AND *HIS WORD* INSIDE GOD,THAT HE BROUGHT FORTH IN THE BEGINNING.
    BY THE *WORD* WAS ALL THINGS MADE.

    Your words are true since God speaks his Word from his heart and he certainly spoke his Word in the beginning to create all things that were created.

    Quote
    GOD CALLED JESUS; GOD IN HEB.1:8.

    And the Hebrews are called gods in Scripture:

    Psalm 82:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 I have said, Ye are gods;
    and all of you are children of the most High.

    The writer of Hebrews was quoting from a wedding song that is even to this day used at Jewish weddings.


    [/QUOTE]Yes, and believers are in them and they are in believers. It is called the unity of the Spirit. That is also one reason why I wrote God is in Jesus through his Spirit even though it only explicitly written God is in believers by his Spirit.

    Quote

    Believers are flesh: therfore the *spirit* is in them.
    But Jesus *is spirit*: and therefore he as a spirit is *IN* the father.

    One Lord and one God sounds like two different beings.
    One Mediator and one God sound like two different beings.
    The Father and God of Jesus Christ sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and The Son sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    Quote

    Yes:So it seems to you at the moment, and to the world.
    This is why it's called the great mystery.
    But Jesus is God's word that is in God.(one).

    Yes, the father and the Son are two.
    But only with deeper **spiritual**understanding,you will understand,that the son came from inside God out.
    The Son was the Word that was inside God,and God brought him forth by his will/mind. Just like he brought forth the angels by *his Word*.

    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    Quote

    You did not consider that the believers are **flesh** and Jesus is spirit.
    The spirit dwells in the flesh. In Jesus case; Jesus dwells
    in his Father; is part of his Father.
    The Word was God.


    Without God the watchman watches in vain; so without God the Savior saves in vain. God s
    aves through Jesus Christ just like it is written:

    Quote

    True, all is made by the Word/Jesus.
    and all plans will be done by the Word also.
    **Without him was not anything made that was made**.

    Without him *ALSO*was no plan of God done, and finished off.
    No one can get to know the truth of God
    without seeking the *Word of God* in print today.
    Even teaching word to mouth is still taken from the
    scriptures.

    Your words are true since God speaks his Word from his heart and he certainly spoke his Word in the beginning to create all things that were created.
    And the Hebrews are called gods in Scripture:Psalm 82:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    6 I have said, Ye are gods;
    and all of you are children of the most High.[QUOTE]

    We are gods yes; but we are not the Word of God
    with his throne. thy throne O' God—–

    wakeup.

    #359145
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,12:28)
    carmel,

    Quote
    I am afraid you are too far away from the truth, WITH REGARDS TO JESUS CHRIST!

    NOW READ AND REFLECT:
    COLOSSIANS 3:11……………….. BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL

    WHAT IS THE MEANING OF CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL?  

    ISN'T IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT JESUS AS THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR GOD IS  ALL

    THE ENTIRE CREATION,

    AND IN  ALL

    THE ENTIRE CREATION?

    Here is the whole sentence:

    Colossians 3:9-11
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    and it is not saying what you are saying.

    So it appears that you are using a quote from scripture and attempting to apply it to a situation that is already known to be true.  That does not work since I do not agree what you write is true.  Instead I am convinced that Trinitarism is an irrational tenet that requires those that believe in it to either lack knowledge of Scripture or suspend their disbelief.  It is not a teaching that is advanced with true reason as the internal contradictions are many.

    I will use but will you?  That is to be seen.

    Quote
    THE WORD IS LIGHT AS WELL

    I know of nowhere in Scripture where your statement is written.  Since it is not written or derived why should I write it?

    Quote
    AND IF JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD WHICH EMANATED FROM THE FATHER,

    I don't even see that written in the poetic and flowery language that is employed by some parts of Scripture to describe Jesus.  The closest to this statement you write is:

    Hebrews 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote
    THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU, ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE!

    SO JESUS' WORDS ARE SPIRIT, OBVIOUS DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER WITHIN JESUS' SOUL, GOD'S MOUTHPIECE

    God lives in Jesus by his Spirit.  I know of nowhere in Scripture where it states or assumes he is in Jesus' or anyone else's soul.  Replace soul with Spirit and I will agree.

    You have written more but this is all I am answering at this time.  I have no plans to answer the rest though if it should come up again I may address it then.


    Quote
    11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    and it is not saying what you are saying.

    Kerwin,

    IT SAYS: but Christ is all, and in all.

    NOW EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS!

    IT'S NO USE TRYING TO EVADE MY QUESTION!

    SO EXPAND ON THAT TEXT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #359149
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 01 2013,15:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,14:16)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    JESUS IS IN GOD,AND GOD IS IN JESUS.
    THE WORD OF GOD/JESUS IS IN GOD, AND GOD IS IN HIS WORD/JESUS.
    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN ME.

    Yes, and believers are in them and they are in believers.  It is called the unity of the Spirit.  That is also one reason why I wrote God is in Jesus through his Spirit even though it only explicitly written God is in believers by his Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:3-6

    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    JESUS IS NOT JUST ANOTHER PERSON BEARING THE SPIRIT OF GOD. JESUS *IS* THE WORD OF GOD IN GOD.

    YOU ARE CREATING TWO ENTITIES: GOD AND THE PERSON JESUS,IN WHOM THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS.
    FOR GOD IS ONE: GOD AND HIS WORD IN GOD.

    One Lord and one God sounds like two different beings.
    One Mediator and one God sound like two different beings.
    The Father and God of Jesus Christ sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and The Son sounds like two different beings.

    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    John 17:20-23
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    Quote
    BESIDE ME THERE IS *NO* SAVIOUR.

    IF JESUS IS ANOTHER,THEN THERE ARE TWO.
    GOD AND THE SAVIOUR JESUS;THE MAN YOU SO CALLED
    THE REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD;OR THE SPOKES MAN,
    OR THE MAN WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    Without God the watchman watches in vain; so without God the Savior saves in vain.  God saves through Jesus Christ just like it is written:

    Romans 5:9
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    and

    Romans 5:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Quote
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD BUT THROUGH HIS WORD.
    AND HIS WORD YOU FIND IN PRINT,FOR US TO SEEK.
    NO MAN CAN COME TO GOD WITHOUT READING THE SCRIPTURES.

    That is not what is written. In fact there are examples in Scripture where God's Word is preached.  It is not those that hear or even read that are blessed by God but those who show it is written in their inward beings by doing it.

    Quote
    Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called ***The Word of God***.

    Jesus has been called by the name of the Word ever since the Word was made flesh.  He was both predestined and foretold to be the one to be so called since before the world began.  Anything beyond that you are reading into Scripture.

    Quote
    IT ALWAYS COMES TO THE WORD OF GOD.
    THERE IS ONLY *ONE GOD** AND *HIS WORD* INSIDE GOD,THAT HE BROUGHT FORTH IN THE BEGINNING.
    BY THE *WORD* WAS ALL THINGS MADE.

    Your words are true since God speaks his Word from his heart and he certainly spoke his Word in the beginning to create all things that were created.

    Quote
    GOD CALLED JESUS; GOD IN HEB.1:8.

    And the Hebrews are called gods in Scripture:

    Psalm 82:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 I have said, Ye are gods;
    and all of you are children of the most High.

    The writer of Hebrews was quoting from a wedding song that is even to this day used at Jewish weddings.


    [/QUOTE]Yes, and believers are in them and they are in believers.  It is called the unity of the Spirit.  That is also one reason why I wrote God is in Jesus through his Spirit even though it only explicitly written God is in believers by his Spirit.

    Quote

    Believers are flesh: therfore the *spirit* is in them.
    But Jesus *is spirit*: and therefore he as a spirit is *IN* the father.

    One Lord and one God sounds like two different beings.
    One Mediator and one God sound like two different beings.
    The Father and God of Jesus Christ sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and The Son sounds like two different beings.
    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    Quote

    Yes:So it seems to you at the moment, and to the world.
    This is why it's called the great mystery.
    But Jesus is God's word that is in God.(one).

    Yes, the father and the Son are two.
    But only with deeper **spiritual**understanding,you will understand,that the son came from inside God out.
    The Son was the Word that was inside God,and God brought him forth by his will/mind. Just like he brought forth the angels by *his Word*.

    The Father and the Son are one in Spirit and so will all believers come to be.

    Quote

    You did not consider that the believers are **flesh** and Jesus is spirit.
    The spirit dwells in the flesh. In Jesus case; Jesus dwells
    in his Father; is
    part of his Father.
    The Word was God.


    Without God the watchman watches in vain; so without God the Savior saves in vain.  God saves through Jesus Christ just like it is written:

    Quote

    True, all is made by the Word/Jesus.
    and all plans will be done by the Word also.
    **Without him was not anything made that was made**.

    Without him *ALSO*was no plan of God done, and finished off.
    No one can get to know the truth of God
    without seeking the *Word of God* in print today.
    Even teaching word to mouth is still taken from the
    scriptures.

    Your words are true since God speaks his Word from his heart and he certainly spoke his Word in the beginning to create all things that were created.
    And the Hebrews are called gods in Scripture:Psalm 82:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    6 I have said, Ye are gods;
    and all of you are children of the most High.[QUOTE]

    We are gods yes; but we are not the Word of God
    with his throne. thy throne O' God—–

    wakeup.


    Kerwin.

    Dont forget the one key to the mystery.

    In the beginning God brought forth his Word
    and he was made as God's image.

    How come?
    Well Jesus said, that he had glory with his Father before the world was. The living Word brought forth as a Being next to the Father having glory together.

    He was made flesh by the will of God.
    Then back to what he was before; a spirit Being with all authority.He does not have to ask his Father.

    The same Word that came out of God.
    God could take him back inside him again if he wanted too.

    No one can understand, that after all that;
    God is still ONE GOD.

    wakeup.

    #359159
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 01 2013,12:24)

    Quote
    11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    and it is not saying what you are saying.

    Kerwin,

    IT SAYS: but Christ is all, and in all.

    NOW EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS!

    IT'S NO USE TRYING TO EVADE MY QUESTION!

    SO EXPAND ON THAT TEXT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    I think you mean expound on it though all I plan to do is summarize it as I believe I have previously.

    Paul is teaching that Jesus Christ is all to believers and that Jesus Christ is in him. If I remember rightly the whole teaching is made in address against sectarianism in the Church.

    Unbelievers are not in Christ nor is Christ in them. He is not all to them either.

    It looks like expounded some as well.

    #359166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2013,19:43)
    …you believe in this creature that is not testified as being part of the creation in the OT, who you say was transformed to a human being, is the same person who came in the flesh.


    Can you show me where I've contradicted myself?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2013,19:43)
    You also claim death was in the world before it entered through Adam's sin.


    I've never made any such claim.  You believe Adam was created as an immortal being, consisting of something called “spiritual flesh”.  All I've done is tell you that if scripture is silent about it, so should you be.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2013,19:43)
    It is not written that a being called the word transformed to a human.


    Actually it is…….. all throughout the NT.  

    #359169
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    This post will be locked when it reaches 9,999 posts.  You might want to start a new “Who is the WORD – part 2″……… so your name stays with the topic you started.

    Very few threads get that many posts here.  You hit on a pretty hot topic with this one.  :)

    #359186
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Either this creature that you believe in was turned into flesh or he came in the flesh not both. Make up your mind.

    Another is you claim sin entered the word through Adam and death through sin while you also state death was already in the world.

    And you again claim the body could return to the dust it came from before God cursed it to return to the the dust it came from.

    You also claim spirits can eat and be touched while claiming Jesus gave sound tests to prove he was not a spirit.

    In addition you claim Jesus was Lord of all things in heaven and earth before he was made Lord of all things in heaven and earth.

    You claim Jesus is an angels that will rule the world to come and that angels will not rule the world to come.

    You claim Jesus was both conceived in his mother's womb and that he was conceived before the heaven and earth began.

    You claim Jesus had his inheritance before the world began and received it later.

    You seem not to look at what you are saying and how connect to other things you claim to believe.

    #359196
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    I've never made any such claim. You believe Adam was created as an immortal being, consisting of something called “spiritual flesh”. All I've done is tell you that if scripture is silent about it, so should you be.

    I see, you believe a body that does not die is mortal. Try something else as that does not wash.

    #359197
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Actually it is…….. all throughout the NT.

    So according to you God did not mention such a thing to the Prophets and the Patriarchates who were expecting a human Messiah and not an angel one. One that was the Son of David, as for the flesh.

    I don't see it in the NT either but you think it is there.

    #359208
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Believers are flesh: therfore the *spirit* is in them.
    But Jesus *is spirit*: and therefore he as a spirit is *IN* the father.

    That is not what is written. What is written is that we will become one as Jesus and God are one. Those that are one as Jesus is one is those that are in them and they are in those believers. The word that puts the whole thing in conflict with your words is “as”.

    Jesus was mortal flesh when he declared that God was in him and that he was in God.

    It is for this reason is with two to three that have gathered together in his name. He is with them and in them by his Spirit.

    #359210
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2013,20:12)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Believers are flesh: therfore the *spirit* is in them.
    But Jesus *is spirit*: and therefore he as a spirit is *IN* the father.

    That is not what is written.  What is written is that we will become one as Jesus and God are one.  Those that are one as Jesus is one is those that are in them and they are in those believers.  The word that puts the whole thing in conflict with your words is “as”.

    Jesus was mortal flesh when he declared that God was in him and that he was in God.

    It is for this reason is with two to three that have gathered together in his name. He is with them and in them by his Spirit.


    Kerwin.

    This is because you still believe that Jesus
    is still in the flesh.Denying clear scriptures.
    The appearing of Jesus to his apostles is your *stumbling* block. Not understanding,that he *has* to appear in the flesh
    to show them his wounds and touch.That it is not just a dream, or a vision,or some other deceiving spirit.

    At the coming,every eye shall see,they must see him coming
    He can do it at will. Does not mean that He is flesh,for he is made a quickening spirit; a life giving spirit.
    He was born of the spirit, and He is spirit, like the wind.

    Anyone with the spirit of Christ *in them* walk's his path.
    As for Jesus; he came from inside God out,next to him, as God's image. He brough forth his image,which is his Word.
    And they had glory together.God's Word is his will/mind.
    All words starts in the mind.

    And he went back sitting next to his God.
    No person can sit next to God and Jesus,for it is the Father's
    decision,who can.Flesh and bone can not sit next to God,
    For God is a spirit.

    Remember the woman asking Jesus if her sons
    could sit next to Him and God?

    The doctrine of flesh and bone is to cover up isaiah 11. and 65.
    Where the jews are in the flesh in the kingdom.This is where they have come to a corner;so have to invent something.
    watch for the cunning preachers and book writers.

    wakeup.

    #359241
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    This is because you still believe that Jesus
    is still in the flesh.Denying clear scriptures.
    The appearing of Jesus to his apostles is your *stumbling* block. Not understanding,that he *has* to appear in the flesh
    to show them his wounds and touch.That it is not just a dream, or a vision,or some other deceiving spirit.

    No, Scripture states he acted in that way to teach us he is alive after his death.

    Acts 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    Ghosts are spirits and can neither be touched nor eat.
    Angels are not spirits and can both be touched and eat.

    Quote
    This is because you still believe that Jesus
    is still in the flesh.Denying clear scriptures.

    Is:

    Matthew 24:22
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    one clear passage you claim I am denying by claiming flesh will be saved?  Rather you are the one that claims no flesh will be saved whether or not God shortens those days.  

    I am of the opinion that you neither comprehend the use of language in Scripture nor do you seek to learn to understand it at this time.

    Quote
    At the coming,every eye shall see,they must see him coming
    He can do it at will. Does not mean that He is flesh,for he is made a quickening spirit; a life giving spirit.

    He will descend like he ascended, Acts 1:11, and he ascended in the flesh.  He will be the Son of mankind when he comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:30.

    There is nowhere it is written Jesus is made a life giving spirit,  it is written he was made a man. Hebrews 2:6-9.

    I only have a limited time and I see nothing added by directly responding to your other points.  I both quoted and referenced passages in Scripture to let you know where I am coming from.

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