John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,121 through 14,140 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #358496
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,02:09)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,20:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,21:27)
    useless answer


    If you want to know you have to ask me.

    wakeup.


    who are you that i should ask YOU ???

    if i need to know I ask my God ;and through his written word he will answer me ;and it will be the truth ,

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
    Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    it seems you do not understand what Paul is saying ??

    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;
    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    those verses will help you to understand why John the Baptist says;

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
    Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
    Jn 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

    but are you going to understand those scriptures ???


    You have not shown to me anything new,
    For I have confirmed that in the past.

    ***The word of God***

    wakeup.

    #358498
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,21:40)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,02:09)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,20:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,21:27)
    useless answer


    If you want to know you have to ask me.

    wakeup.


    who are you that i should ask YOU ???

    if i need to know I ask my God ;and through his written word he will answer me ;and it will be the truth ,

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
    Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    it seems you do not understand what Paul is saying ??

    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;
    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    those verses will help you to understand why John the Baptist says;

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
    Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
    Jn 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

    but are you going to understand those scriptures ???


    You have not shown to me anything new,
    For I have confirmed that in the past.

    ***The word of God***

    wakeup.


    GOOD STICK TO WHAT IS TRUE

    #358500
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,14:49)
    Kerwin.

    Still waiting for your evidence,
    of angels of different flesh.

    Wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat while angels do both. For you to be correct either Jesus is wrong or the accounts about angels being touching or eating are. Neither of them are wrong.

    Angels do not transform to human beings and they are already there and you will see them if God chooses to open your eyes to see them. He has even chosen to allow one creature see them while the second's eyes remain closed to their presence, Balaam and his donkey.

    #358501
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,16:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,08:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,08:05)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,06:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.


    well were do you pick up SPIRITUAL FLESH ???

    NEWS TO ME


    T,

    None of Paul's examples are spirit bodies while his very first example is flesh bodies and he makes the statement “all flesh is not the same”.  In the examples the body of a living creature is a flesh body.  Since the Spiritual body is the body of a living creature then by Paul's words in his examples it is a flesh body. It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.


    Quote
    It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.

    1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    so you don't mind lying in plain day light ???


    T,

    That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.

    An example of the use of Spiritual.

    Quote
    1 Corinthians 2:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    As you see Spiritually about the Spirit.

    #358503
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Sep. 23 2013,08:50][/quote]

    Quote
    We will be like christ; exactly.

    Wakeup,

    DEFINITELY!

    BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS THE UNIQUE BEING WHO OWN A UNIQUE GLORIFIED BODY BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH

    THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD(SPIRIT) AND JESUS CHRIST( FLESH)

    Quote
    There is the **terrestrial** and the **celestial** body.

    EXACTLY:

    NOW JESUS IS THE ONLY BEING WHO POSSESS BOTH!

    THE REASON THAT HE IS IN COMMAND OVERALL THE ENTIRE CREATION SO HE IS IN COMMAND OVER ALL MATTERS, AND SPIRITS!

    THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD(SPIRIT) AND JESUS CHRIST( FLESH)

    Quote
    Quickening spirit; meaning a spirit is quick/fast.

    NOW READ STRONG'S

    2227. zóopoieó
    zóopoieó: to make alive
    Original Word: ζῳοποιέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: zóopoieó
    Phonetic Spelling: (dzo-op-oy-eh'-o)

    Short Definition: I make to live

    Definition: I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

    SATISFIED!

    SO JESUS MADE WHAT WAS DEAD THE FLESH ALIVE !

    Quote
    You have no evidence that angels are of different kinds of flesh; This doctrine is someting that came out of the pit.

    THE ANGELS HAVE NO FLESH AND BONES BODY LIKE JESUS!

    JESUS IS UNIQUE!

    BUT ON THE LAST DAY, ALL INTELLECTUAL BEINGS, INCLUDING ANGELS WOULD EVENTUALLY OWN ALSO A BODY LIKE THAT OF JESUS, BOTH SPIRIT AND MATTER ALTHOUGH THE MATTER WOULD BE DIFFERENT!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY MUST EXPERIENCE THE MATTER PROCESS, IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS!

    ALL ANGELS IN THE BEGINNING WERE CREATED GOOD AND PERFECT, BUT PREDESTINED BY GOD TO REMAIN GOOD ONLY TWO THIRDS, AND ONE THIRD WOULD BECOME EVIL!

    SO THEY DIDN'T HAVE A FREE WILL!

    SO PURPOSELY IN ORDER FOR ALL INTELLECTUAL BEINGS TO BE EQUALLY SUBJECT TO THEIR FREE WILL, GOD ESTABLISHED THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH THE EVIL ANGELS AND, GOD HIMSELF, THROUGH JESUS, AS THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD, BECAME HUMAN AND REDEEMED ALL HUMANS, OR RATHER ALL THE ENTIRE ANGELS IN THE FORM OF CARNAL BEINGS, SINCE ALL HAVE SINNED!

    SINCE EVEN JESUS THE SON OF GOD WAS TESTED FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

    JOHN THE BAPTIST HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS SENT BY GOD,AND JESUS ALSO BY HIS STATEMENT MADE US AWARE THAT HE WAS MICHAEL!

    ALL THE ANGELS MUST PROVE THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS, AND GOOD! SINCE THEY WERE PREDESTINED BY GOD TO REMAIN GOOD, THEREFORE NOT ACCORDING TO THEIR FREE WILL!  

    Quote
    He materialised himself to show/proof to his brethren that he *IS* truly Jesus crucified. For they can not feel nor see a spirit body.

    You said it yourself; he can
    manifest himself into anything he likes.God can even make the stones glorify him.

    HE MATERIALIZED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE OWNED HIS  FLESH BODY, HE ENTERED THROUGH WALLS BECAUSE HE ALSO OWNED THE SPIRITUAL BODY!
    AND THAT'S WHY  HE CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN WHATEVER HE LIKES!

    GOD ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD GLORIFIED AND MANIFESTED HIMSELF IN ANY THING HE LIKED ON EARTH!

    John 17:4I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    WHICH WAS THE CREATION OF OUR WORLD,THE REDEMPTION,AND ESTABLISHMENT OF HIS CHURCH, THE BRIDE! ALL SOULS!

    GOD IS THE PUREST SPIRIT AND NOTHING COULD BE HIS ABODE, EXCEPT THE WORD JESUS CHRIST.

    THE WORD WAS GOD'S ABODE FIRST TO CREATE ALL CREATION HIDDEN IN HIM,THEN WHEN THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH! AND BECAME MAN! AND UNIFIED BOTH SUBSTANCES INTO ONE!

    Quote
    Jesus did not raise himself from the dead,but his *REDEEMER* did. If he did raise himself: that would be telling us that he did not really die.

    John 2:19 Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT.

    CONVINCED? SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR IT SAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP! AND THAT IS A REFERENCE TO HIS FLESH BODY!

    YES JESUS DIED BUT HIS KIND OF DEATH!

    NOT LIKE OURS!

    THE MOMENT WE DIE CORROSION START!

    JESUS NEVER CORRODED!

    THE MOMENT WE DIE, WE END!

    BUT JESUS CONTINUED THE  SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF HIS FLESH BODY, WHICH HE STARTED WHILE HE WAS ALIVE THROUGH HIS PERFECT LIVING!

    John 12:24 Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, 25Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE WE ARE AWARE THAT JESUS DIED, BUT IN REALITY HE WAS ACTIVE, LIKE THE SEED WITHIN A SPIRITUAL PROCESS WHICH HE HIMSELF ACCOMPLISHED! SINCE HE HAD LIFE IN HIMSELF!

    IN REALITY THE SEED NEVER DIES WHEN IT IS BURIED IN THE SOIL, BUT MORE ALIVE SINCE IT GROWS AND GIVES FRUIT!

    HEBREWS 1:11 THEY SHALL PERISH,

    BUT YOU SHALL CONTINUE:

    SO CLEAR ENOUGH: WE ALL PERISH, BUT JESUS NEVER PERISHED, ACTUALLY DIED AS WE ALL DO, BUT CONTINUED ………….

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    BUT YOU ARE THE SELFSAME,………….

    AGAIN WE ALL BE CHANGED BUT JESUS REMAINED THE SAME THEREFORE NEVER DIED LIKE WE ALL DO!

    reflect on the process of the caterpillar into butterfly!

    DOES THE CATERPILLAR DIES, OR IN REALITY HE CONTINUES HIS PROCESS WHICH HE STARTED WHILE HE WAS A CATERPILLAR, AND THEN EVOLVE INTO A BUTTERFLY!

    BUT WE COULD ALSO CONCLUDE THAT THE CATERPILLAR DIES IN A WAY, SINCE HE IS NO MORE AS A CATERPILLAR!

    SO IN THE SAME WAY JESUS DIED, BUT IN REALITY HE WAS IN HIS OWN PROCESS TO GLORIFY IN A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #358518
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,18:47)
    Mike,

    Jesus proposed two tests to demonstrate he was not a spirit.  The first was touching and the second was eating.


    Like I said before, Kerwin, these things you've concocted in your own mind don't deserve any more of my time.

    #358519
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,18:32)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2013,02:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:41)
    In English Jesus took on the form of a servant and God made him in the form of a human.


    In English, Jesus first EMPTIED HIMSELF…………. and then was made in the form of a human.

    One cannot EMPTY HIMSELF before he exists.  Therefore, Jesus existed BEFORE he was made in the form of a human.


    Mike,

    For that to be clear there would need to be a then in the statement.  As it is “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” all appear to have happened at approximately the same time.  Nothing indicating time is mentioned………….


    Oh yes it is, Kerwin!

    1. Existing in the form of God. Didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped……….

    2. BUT…… emptied himself, took on the form of a servant, was made in the likeness of a human being.

    Do you see the word “BUT”? That means he was existing and considering things (part 1) BEFORE he emptied himself and was made as a man.

    People who don't exist can't be said to be “existing”. Nor can one who doesn't yet exist “consider” anything.

    So now you know that time IS indicated. What do you say?

    #358520
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,02:49)
    Have you considered that you are used to the words of Trinitarians and those who have not yet won completely free of the influence of that erroneous teaching?


    Let me walk you through this once more, Kerwin.

    1.  The word “logos” is personified in John 1:1.  

    That same word “logos” is personified by the same author in Revelation 19:13.  In the latter, the “logos” is personified as Jesus Christ.

    2.  The personified “logos” of John 1 was with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    According to Phil 2 and other scriptures, Jesus Christ was existing with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    3.  The personified “logos” of John 1 is closely associated with “light”.

    Jesus Christ is the “light” that came into the world.

    4.  The personified “logos” of John 1 was testified about by John the Baptist.

    Jesus Christ is the sole person John the Baptist was sent to testify about.

    5.  All things were made through the personified “logos” of John 1.

    All things were made through Jesus – according to at least three other scriptures.

    There are five quick comparisons, Kerwin.  I've drawn you a map.  It will be up to you whether or not you choose to navigate accordingly.

    I suggest you do, because right now you've been reduced to saying that people who believe the Word is Jesus have been manipulated by Trinitarians.  And when you sink so low that you can no longer refute the points, but have to resort to ad hominems instead, you have already lost the battle.

    I am no Trinitarian, Kerwin.  But all the things I listed above are completely scriptural……… because I learned all of them from the scriptures.

    #358521
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.

    #358522
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:58)
    T,

    That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.


    Kerwin,

    Do you accept the fact that “belonging to a spirit” is one of the definitions of “spiritual”?

    #358531
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.

    #358533
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:58)
    T,

    That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.


    Kerwin,

    Do you accept the fact that “belonging to a spirit” is one of the definitions of “spiritual”?


    Mike,

    Yes, it is as belonging to spirit and belonging to the Spirit are basically the same definition.

    In scripture when the context is natural verses spirit the application definition is Spirit. I know of no exception even when taking in account synonyms of natural.

    Paul did not use an example of a spirit body.

    #358536
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,08:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.


    k

    so what would you say the word SPIRIT stands for ???

    #358539
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,02:49)
    Have you considered that you are used to the words of Trinitarians and those who have not yet won completely free of the influence of that erroneous teaching?

    These words are neither an insult or a direct accusation. At the most it is accusing you of basing your teaching on the false knowledge of a preexistence Christ that originates in Trinitarian teachings.

    I did not say or infer you were a Trinitarian. Instead you are one who has not yet won completely free of their teachings. That is a statement of opinion and therefore not libel.

    You have been taught to look at Scripture in general, and John 1 in particular, in a certain way. You have learned to look at some in a new way but you are still influenced by what you were taught.

    I basically told you to watch yourself.

    #358551
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,08:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,08:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.


    k

    so what would you say the word SPIRIT  stands for ???


    T,

    I am not sure what you are saying but I will guess and say the evidence supports the idea Jesus was speaking of immaterial beings.

    Test you teachings about angels.

    Since angels are ministering spirits cannot mean they are creatures composed of spirit as it would cause Scripture to be broken.

    Another definition of spirit that fits the context is required.  In English “the inner quality or nature of a person” would fit the requirement.  

    I saw no other English definition that both seemed significantly different and that can apply.  Perhaps you do.

    Note:
    Spirit at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.

    #358554
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,10:00)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,08:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,08:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.


    k

    so what would you say the word SPIRIT  stands for ???


    T,

    I am not sure what you are saying but I will guess and say the evidence supports the idea Jesus was speaking of immaterial beings.

    Test you teachings about angels.

    Since angels are ministering spirits cannot mean they are creatures composed of spirit as it would cause Scripture to be broken.

    Another definition of spirit that fits the context is required.  In English “the inner quality or nature of a person” would fit the requirement.  

    I saw no other English definition that both seemed significantly different and that can apply.  Perhaps you do.

    Note:
    Spirit at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.


    K

    ok,so what you think PAUL MEANT WHEN HE SAYS “SPIRITUAL BODY” ???

    #358559
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,10:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,10:00)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,08:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,08:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.


    k

    so what would you say the word SPIRIT  stands for ???


    T,

    I am not sure what you are saying but I will guess and say the evidence supports the idea Jesus was speaking of immaterial beings.

    Test you teachings about angels.

    Since angels are ministering spirits cannot mean they are creatures composed of spirit as it would cause Scripture to be broken.

    Another definition of spirit that fits the context is required.  In English “the inner quality or nature of a person” would fit the requirement.  

    I saw no other English definition that both seemed significantly different and that can apply.  Perhaps you do.

    Note:
    Spirit at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.


    K

    ok,so what you think  PAUL MEANT WHEN HE SAYS “SPIRITUAL BODY” ???


    T,

    He means Spiritual body where Spiritual is relating to the Spirit of God.

    #358561
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,05:45)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,14:49)
    Kerwin.

    Still waiting for your evidence,
    of angels of different flesh.

    Wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat while angels do both.  For you to be correct either Jesus is wrong or the accounts about angels being touching or eating are. Neither of them are wrong.

    Angels do not transform to human beings and they are already there and you will see them if God chooses to open your eyes to see them.  He has even chosen to allow one creature see them while the second's eyes remain closed to their presence, Balaam and his donkey.


    Kerwin.

    That's where the word *translate* comes in.
    Why is it not imposible for you to accept that the Word
    is made flesh?

    Do you really think that Jesus will have his nail marks
    and his spear mark,and the stripes on his back for ever and ever? Plus his nose was also broken.

    The two prophets were translated into some other dimension.
    And in in the last days they will be translated back
    into their flesh body.Moses and Elijah.rev11.

    wakeup.

    #358595
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,20:02)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45)
    According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….


    Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.


    Like I said, Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture. What he DID say was that spirits don't have FLESH.

    So not only are you forcing your own imaginations to come out of Jesus' mouth, but in the process you are totally IGNORING the things that actually DID come out of his mouth. ???

    #358596
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,20:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:58)
    T,

    That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.


    Kerwin,

    Do you accept the fact that “belonging to a spirit” is one of the definitions of “spiritual”?


    Mike,

    Yes, it is as belonging to spirit and belonging to the Spirit are basically the same definition.

    In scripture when the context is natural verses spirit the application definition is Spirit.  I know of no exception even when taking in account synonyms of natural.

    Paul did not use an example of a spirit body.


    Kerwin,

    Your ultimate claim is that angels of God exist in heaven within FLESH bodies.

    You might be on your own with that one, partner. But either way, I find the idea ludicrous, and unworthy of further examination.

    I will leave you to your beliefs on this one.

Viewing 20 posts - 14,121 through 14,140 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account