John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,101 through 14,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #358436
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:41)
    In English Jesus took on the form of a servant and God made him in the form of a human.


    In English, Jesus first EMPTIED HIMSELF…………. and then was made in the form of a human.

    One cannot EMPTY HIMSELF before he exists. Therefore, Jesus existed BEFORE he was made in the form of a human.

    #358438
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2013,00:07)
    [quote=Wakeup,Sep. 22 2013,20:50][/quote]

    Quote
    The last man Adam was made a *QUICKENING SPIRIT*

    Wakeup,

    a quickening spirit means:  A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS FLESH BODY IS NOT LIKE OURS A DEAD SUBSTANCE BUT ALIVE SINCE HIS ORIGIN IS FROM THE ETERNAL FATHER,  EVEN IF AFTER HE DIED HIS DEATH!

    HE CONFIRMED THIS FIRST WHEN HE SAID:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF:

    SO TO CLARIFY, IT MEANS THAT AS THE FATHER, SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF,

    THE SON ALTHOUGH HE IS A FLESH BODY, HAS ALSO LIFE IN HIMSELF, SO HIS FLESH BODY CAN NEVER REALLY DIE LIKE OURS! BUT WOULD MAINTAIN ITS LIFE THROUGH DEATH ITSELF!

    HE CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE SAID :

    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, REFERRING TO HIS FLESH BODY, AND I WILL RAISE IT UP IN THREE DAYS

    HE DIDN'T SAY MY FATHER RAISE IT UP BUT I TO MAKE US AWARE THAT HIS FLESH BODY HAS LIFE IN ITSELF, AND TRANSFORMED ITSELF INTO A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    NOW Explain:

    Luke 24:38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    39 SEE MY HANS AND FEET, THAT IT IS I MYSELF; HANDLE, AND SEE: FOR A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES

    SO JESUS HAS NO BLOOD NOW,  BUT FLESH AND BONES!

    JESUS POSSESS BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT ATTRIBUTES AS ONE ENTITY! AND HE CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN ANY WAY HE WANTS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    There is the **terrestrial** and the **celestial** body.
    Quickening spirit; meaning a spirit is quick/fast.
    We will be like christ; exactly.
    He is our holy brother.

    You have no evidence that angels are of different kinds of flesh; This doctrine is someting that came out of the pit.

    Regarding Jesus appearing in the flesh.
    He materialised himself to show/proof to his brethren that he *IS* truly Jesus crucified. For they can not feel nor see a spirit body.

    Dont let this put you off track. You said it yourself; he can
    manifest himself into anything he likes.God can even make the stones glorify him.

    Jesus did not raise himself from the dead,but his *REDEEMER* did. If he did raise himself: that would be telling us that he did not really die. The sriptures are clear: Jesus *DIED* for our sins. Let no one tell you otherwise.

    (THUS SAID THE *KING OF IS REAL*;AND *HIS REDEEMER* THE LORD OF HOST.IS.44:6).

    I will see what post of yours I have missed.

    wakeup.

    #358449
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2013,02:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,02:52)
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.


    Kerwin,

    Listen to Wakeup.  There is no such thing as “spiritual flesh” mentioned in ANY scripture.

    There are flesh bodies, and spirit bodies.


    Mike,

    There is no spirit body mentioned in any passage of Scripture. When Scripture states body in the context of a living creature they are always talking about a flesh body.

    I cannot even say whether angels are an exception but I do know spirits cannot eat or be touched while angels can be touched and eat.

    The human body was not destined to return to the ground until God pronounced that judgement on them, just as it is written:

    Genesis 3:19
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Before this time Adam's flesh was Spiritual and did not return to earth and after this time it became natural and returned to the earth.

    #358452
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.

    #358454
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    Mike,

    There is no spirit body mentioned in any passage of Scripture.  When Scripture states body in the context of a living creature they are always talking about a flesh body.


    Angels have bodies, Kerwin.  They have wings, and some of them have multiple faces.  They have hands and feet.  And they dwell in heaven, which means they are NOT made of flesh.

    Spiritual bodies ARE mentioned in scriptures.  And one of the definitions of “spiritual” is “of things belonging to a spirit”.  So a “spiritual body” is a body that belongs to a spirit being……. ie: a spirit body.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    I cannot even say whether angels are an exception but I do know spirits cannot eat or be touched while angels can be touched and eat.


    Angels are ministering SPIRITS, Kerwin.  Get it?  Angels are SPIRITS/SPIRIT BEINGS.

    There is no scripture in the Bible that says spirit beings cannot be touched or eat.  These are things you've made up in your own mind.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    Before this time Adam's flesh was Spiritual and did not return to earth………


    Another thing you've made up in your own head.

    These kinds of made up things don't deserve any more attention from me, Kerwin.  I just popped in to support Wakeup.

    #358458
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2013,02:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:41)
    In English Jesus took on the form of a servant and God made him in the form of a human.


    In English, Jesus first EMPTIED HIMSELF…………. and then was made in the form of a human.

    One cannot EMPTY HIMSELF before he exists.  Therefore, Jesus existed BEFORE he was made in the form of a human.


    Mike,

    For that to be clear there would need to be a then in the statement. As it is “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” all appear to have happened at approximately the same time. Nothing indicating time is mentioned except to the extent that that “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant” is an action he took instead of seeing himself as equal to God. The hint it may be a result of him not seeing himself as equal with God is that according to the KJV being made in the likeness of man is listed with those actions even though it is not an action he took.

    #358460
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2013,06:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    Mike,

    There is no spirit body mentioned in any passage of Scripture.  When Scripture states body in the context of a living creature they are always talking about a flesh body.


    Angels have bodies, Kerwin.  They have wings, and some of them have multiple faces.  They have hands and feet.  And they dwell in heaven, which means they are NOT made of flesh.

    Spiritual bodies ARE mentioned in scriptures.  And one of the definitions of “spiritual” is “of things belonging to a spirit”.  So a “spiritual body” is a body that belongs to a spirit being……. ie: a spirit body.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    I cannot even say whether angels are an exception but I do know spirits cannot eat or be touched while angels can be touched and eat.


    Angels are ministering SPIRITS, Kerwin.  Get it?  Angels are SPIRITS/SPIRIT BEINGS.

    There is no scripture in the Bible that says spirit beings cannot be touched or eat.  These are things you've made up in your own mind.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,17:45)
    Before this time Adam's flesh was Spiritual and did not return to earth………


    Another thing you've made up in your own head.

    These kinds of made up things don't deserve any more attention from me, Kerwin.  I just popped in to support Wakeup.


    Mike,

    None of what you say contradicts the fact Jesus proposed two tests to demonstrate he was not a spirit. The first was touching and the second was eating.

    The angels that visited Lot did both things demonstrating they are not spirit beings.

    So do you believe Jesus' tests revealed he was not a spirit?

    There are two ways of interpretation.
    1) Touching reveals that the one being touched is flesh and bone.
    2) Touching reveal that the one being touched is not a spirit.

    I go with the second as I can touch other things than flesh and bone.

    #358463
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,15:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,19:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    Kerwin.

    If you are speaking of physical flesh,yes there are many differnt kinds of flesh.
    One of them is human flesh.
    But all spirit bodies are one; there is no flesh/spirit body.

    The last man Adam was made a *QUICKENING SPIRIT*

    And we will be like him; a quickening spirit.
    The flesh; any flesh perishes.
    You can not name any angel,
    that has different flesh, but spirit.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    This is what is written:

    1 Corinthians 15:38-40
    King James Version (KJV)

    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    There is no mention of a spirit body and the only mention of a body of a living creature is flesh. The rest are physical bodies of non living objects.

    The last Adam is the Spiritual Adam, while the first Adam is the natural Adam. Both are Adam.

    #358468
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,06:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.


    well were do you pick up SPIRITUAL FLESH ???

    NEWS TO ME

    #358471
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,08:05)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,06:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.


    well were do you pick up SPIRITUAL FLESH ???

    NEWS TO ME


    T,

    None of Paul's examples are spirit bodies while his very first example is flesh bodies and he makes the statement “all flesh is not the same”. In the examples the body of a living creature is a flesh body. Since the Spiritual body is the body of a living creature then by Paul's words in his examples it is a flesh body. It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.

    #358472
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,08:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,08:05)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,06:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.


    well were do you pick up SPIRITUAL FLESH ???

    NEWS TO ME


    T,

    None of Paul's examples are spirit bodies while his very first example is flesh bodies and he makes the statement “all flesh is not the same”.  In the examples the body of a living creature is a flesh body.  Since the Spiritual body is the body of a living creature then by Paul's words in his examples it is a flesh body. It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.


    1Co 15:35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
    1Co 15:36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
    1Co 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
    1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
    1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
    1Co 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
    1Co 15:41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
    1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
    1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
    1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    his the sun also flesh ???

    your logic is in comparison ridicule ,and not covered in Paul description ,

    so we can add those scriptures to those i have quoted previously ,scriptures you do not believe without your personal interpretation

    #358476
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    your logic is in comparison ridicule ,and not covered in Paul description ,

    My reasoning is based on examining Paul's words about bodies and see what that tells us.

    Quote
    is[edit] the sun also flesh

    The Sun is a non-living  object. I am pointing out

    1) Paul does not mention a spirit body when he gives his example
    2) The living bodies Paul does mention are all flesh.

    There is no evidence of a spirit body in those words of his.  Instead the evidence is that at least some living bodies are flesh bodies.

    Quote
    1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

    It is the flesh body that is sown perishable, just as was done with Jesus.  It is the same body that is raised imperishable, as also was the case with Jesus.  This passage only mentions one body that changes while 1 Corinthians 15:35 seems to mention two. The only change mentioned is from perishable to imperishable.  There is no mention of a change from flesh content to spirit content.

    #358477
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2013,12:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2013,04:38)

    But LITERALLY, nobody's words are really living entities, right?


    Mike,

    Correct……….


    So if even God's words aren't LITERALLY living entities, who is the Word of God that became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    Because that doesn't seem “poetic” to me.  It seems as if a literal person dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.


    Mike,

    It is known to be poetic and the term light, if nothing else, herald's that.

    Even one of those that hold that Jesus is the Logos holds that.

    Quote
    In his recent treatment of the Johannine writings, R. Alan Culpepper comments that “By any standard the prologue to the Gospel of John is one of the most profound passages in the Bible. As simple as its language and phrases are, its description of Jesus as the Logos has exerted a lasting influence on Christian theology.” He concludes:

    Quote
    All the prologues…serve to educate or prepare the reader for the rest of the Gospel. Important themes are signalled and the identity of Jesus is established at the very outset by means of Christological titles, divine portents or the manner of Jesus birth…All the prologues therefore are Christological affirmations, but John is the only Gospel to speak of Jesus’ pre-existence as the Logos and the only Gospel to include a poetic prologue.

    Have you considered that you are used to the words of Trinitarians and those who have not yet won completely free of the influence of that erroneous teaching?

    #358478
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Kerwin.

    Still waiting for your evidence,
    of angels of different flesh.

    Wakeup.

    #358480
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,14:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,07:47)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,10:37)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,04:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,01:13)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,17:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,16:48)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,10:42)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,15:12)
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,

    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,

    THIS IS WHY THE SON WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE CREATION AND MEN ;BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT CREATION BY GOD ,AND THAT IS WHAT HE DID ,

    IT IS OBVIOUS THAT BEING IN THE NATURE OF GOD THEY ARE BOTH SPIRIT BEINGS ;BUT THEIR OWN WORDS ARE NOT THEM BUT OF THEM ,AND YES WHEN THEY TALK THEY ARE MEANINGFUL WORDS ,THEY SAY


    Terra.

    You are close,but not on target.

    **QUOTE:**
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,
    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,**UNQUOTE:**

    1.In the beginning was the Word; not Jesus/he was not born
      yet.
    2.The Word was not created;but brought forth,from inside of
       God out.
    3.Jesus was born flesh/created.
    4.The spirit Jesus went back into the bosom of his Father.
    5.Is sitting next to his Father.

    John saw God sitting on his throne;then he saw the Lamb
    in the mids of the same throne,because they are one.
    **Again the Word was with God**.

    wakeup.


    You playing with words ,and you thinking that I am as dum as a plank ,
    The word = Jesus Christ ,you just do not understand the scriptures Col:1:15-21

    You try to teach what you do not understand ,but wors you tell me that I do not know the scriptures,insulting


    Terra.

    Be honest,and be a man.

    John1.
    —-And the word was with God.
    Tell me: was that Jesus with God?

    wakeup.


    Yes ;THE WORD ” IN HEAVEN HIS CHRIST ;THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;

    THAT CAME TO DOWN FROM THE FATHER TO SAVE MEN ,THIS IS TOTALLY IN HARMONY WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURES EVEN REVELATION ,


    Terra.

    Concentrate:

    In the BEGINNING was the word.(NOT YET JESUS).
    And the Word(NOT YET JESUS) was *with* God.

    NOT Jesus:  because the *WORD* was not yet made flesh.
    After the WORD was made flesh;his name is called Jesus.
    After Jesus went back to heaven; his name is called
    the *Word of God* once more.

    wakeup.


    ???

    YOU SURE YOU WANT TO SAY SOME THING ???


    Terra.

    Is there a beam lodged in your eyes?

    wakeup.


    no ,sliver in the eye ;but i can not see what you say ;because i told you who they are


    Terra.

    There a reason why you can not see,
    the simple things.

    wakeup.

    #358482
    terraricca
    Participant

    useless answer

    #358484
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,14:27)
    T,

    Quote
    your logic is in comparison ridicule ,and not covered in Paul description ,

    My reasoning is based on examining Paul's words about bodies and see what that tells us.

    Quote
    is[edit] the sun also flesh

    The Sun is a non-living  object. I am pointing out

    1) Paul does not mention a spirit body when he gives his example
    2) The living bodies Paul does mention are all flesh.

    There is no evidence of a spirit body in those words of his.  Instead the evidence is that at least some living bodies are flesh bodies.

    Quote
    1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

    It is the flesh body that is sown perishable, just as was done with Jesus.  It is the same body that is raised imperishable, as also was the case with Jesus.  This passage only mentions one body that changes while 1 Corinthians 15:35 seems to mention two. The only change mentioned is from perishable to imperishable.  There is no mention of a change from flesh content to spirit content.


    but spiritual flesh comes from your brain ,not from Paul,and

    you bring it because of your false believe ,because you do not believe what Paul is teaching ,

    what Paul says “different flesh ” was regarding fish,birds,mammals' and plants

    you are living out of the scriptures
    i am still waiting for answers to my quotes

    #358485
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,08:50)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,08:05)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,06:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,21:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all


    T,

    I am not the one that changes the meaning of body to mean a non-flesh body when in reference to a living creature.  I am the one that goes by Scripture and believes Jesus' natural body was buried and rose a Spiritual body, the pioneer of the resurrection.


    well were do you pick up SPIRITUAL FLESH ???

    NEWS TO ME


    T,

    None of Paul's examples are spirit bodies while his very first example is flesh bodies and he makes the statement “all flesh is not the same”.  In the examples the body of a living creature is a flesh body.  Since the Spiritual body is the body of a living creature then by Paul's words in his examples it is a flesh body. It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.


    Quote
    It is spirit body that is not in Scripture.

    1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    so you don't mind lying in plain day light ???

    #358491
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,21:27)
    useless answer


    If you want to know you have to ask me.

    wakeup.

    #358493
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,20:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2013,21:27)
    useless answer


    If you want to know you have to ask me.

    wakeup.


    who are you that i should ask YOU ???

    if i need to know I ask my God ;and through his written word he will answer me ;and it will be the truth ,

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
    Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    it seems you do not understand what Paul is saying ??

    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;
    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    those verses will help you to understand why John the Baptist says;

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
    Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
    Jn 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

    but are you going to understand those scriptures ???

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