John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #358310
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 22 2013,03:50)
    wakeup,

    I wanted to add, that Jesus said those words regarding our condition, that we would be like angels, for the simple reason that we would  be GLORIFIED WITH JESUS' BODY , IN SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD , WHEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL, WHICH MEANS AEONS, AND AEONS OF TIME!

    NOT WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION,

    I MEAN, WHEN OUR SOULS LEAVES THIS CORRUPTED SUBSTANCE AND LIVE ONLY LIKE ANGELS IN SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE ONLY!

    ALSO:

    THE ANGELS WILL ALSO OWN THE SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY ALSO MUST JUSTIFY THEMSELVES AS RIGHTEOUS BEINGS, THROUGH BECOME ALSO MEN!

    PAUL CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE STATED THAT WE WOULD JUDGE ANGELS, OBVIOUS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY MUST BECOME MEN, AN LIVE IN THIS EVIL, TEMPTING, BEGUILING,FASCINATING CARNAL WORLD!


    Hi Carmel.

    QUOTE:
    I wanted to add, that Jesus said those words regarding our condition, that we would be like angels, for the simple reason that we would be GLORIFIED WITH JESUS' BODY , IN SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD , WHEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL, WHICH MEANS AEONS, AND AEONS OF TIME! UNQUOTE:

    —————————————————————-
    *SPIRITUAL FLESH* IS A WORD ADDED TO COVER UP THE ERRORS MADE IN INTERPRETING THE PROPHESIES.;FOR THERE IS NO SUCH AS SPIRITUAL FLESH.
    ITS EITHER FLESH OR SPIRIT.

    THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A LIVING SOUL,AND THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A **QUICKENING SPIRIT**.
    THERE IS A **TERRESTRIAL** BODY AND THERE IS A **CELESTIAL** BODY. NO IN BETWEEN.
    —————————————————————–

    QUOTE:
    NOT WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION,
    I MEAN, WHEN OUR SOULS LEAVES THIS CORRUPTED SUBSTANCE AND LIVE ONLY LIKE ANGELS IN SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE ONLY! UNQUOTE:

    —————————————————————–
    1 COR 15:44 IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY AND IT IS **RAISED** A ***SPIRITUAL BODY**.
    JESUS IS SITTING NEXT TO HIS FATHER IN HIS SPIRITUAL BODY. NOT HIS SPIRITUAL FLESH.
    FOR FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
    —————————————————————–

    QUOTE:
    ALSO:
    THE ANGELS WILL ALSO OWN THE SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY ALSO MUST JUSTIFY THEMSELVES AS RIGHTEOUS BEINGS, THROUGH BECOME ALSO MEN! UNQUOTE:

    —————————————————————–
    WHERE IS THAT IN SCRIPTURE?
    BESIDES,THEY ARE NOW, AND HAVE BEEN WITH GOD FOR
    ALONG LONG TIME. SO WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR THEM TO BE JUDGED? THEY HAVE LEARNED FROM WATCHING MENS WORK ON EARTH. THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS ALREADY.
    THEY ARE CALLED THE HOLY ANGELS.
    —————————————————————–

    QUOTE:
    PAUL CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE STATED THAT WE WOULD JUDGE ANGELS, OBVIOUS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY MUST BECOME MEN, AN LIVE IN THIS EVIL, TEMPTING, BEGUILING,FASCINATING CARNAL WORLD! UNQUOTE:

    —————————————————————–YES, WE WILL JUDGE ANGELS;BUT NOT THE HOLY ANGELS
    BUT ALL THE FALLEN ANGELS.THEY WILL BE JUDGED BY THE HOLY SAINTS.
    —————————————————————–

    wakeup.

    #358316
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,01:13)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,17:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,16:48)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,10:42)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,15:12)
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,

    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,

    THIS IS WHY THE SON WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE CREATION AND MEN ;BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT CREATION BY GOD ,AND THAT IS WHAT HE DID ,

    IT IS OBVIOUS THAT BEING IN THE NATURE OF GOD THEY ARE BOTH SPIRIT BEINGS ;BUT THEIR OWN WORDS ARE NOT THEM BUT OF THEM ,AND YES WHEN THEY TALK THEY ARE MEANINGFUL WORDS ,THEY SAY


    Terra.

    You are close,but not on target.

    **QUOTE:**
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,
    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,**UNQUOTE:**

    1.In the beginning was the Word; not Jesus/he was not born
      yet.
    2.The Word was not created;but brought forth,from inside of
       God out.
    3.Jesus was born flesh/created.
    4.The spirit Jesus went back into the bosom of his Father.
    5.Is sitting next to his Father.

    John saw God sitting on his throne;then he saw the Lamb
    in the mids of the same throne,because they are one.
    **Again the Word was with God**.

    wakeup.


    You playing with words ,and you thinking that I am as dum as a plank ,
    The word = Jesus Christ ,you just do not understand the scriptures Col:1:15-21

    You try to teach what you do not understand ,but wors you tell me that I do not know the scriptures,insulting


    Terra.

    Be honest,and be a man.

    John1.
    —-And the word was with God.
    Tell me: was that Jesus with God?

    wakeup.


    Yes ;THE WORD ” IN HEAVEN HIS CHRIST ;THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;

    THAT CAME TO DOWN FROM THE FATHER TO SAVE MEN ,THIS IS TOTALLY IN HARMONY WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURES EVEN REVELATION ,


    Terra.

    Concentrate:

    In the BEGINNING was the word.(NOT YET JESUS).
    And the Word(NOT YET JESUS) was *with* God.

    NOT Jesus: because the *WORD* was not yet made flesh.
    After the WORD was made flesh;his name is called Jesus.
    After Jesus went back to heaven; his name is called
    the *Word of God* once more.

    wakeup.

    #358322
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,20:28)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,06:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,03:40)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,18:12)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But it's not like the words that came out of King David's mouth were some living entity that people obeyed, Kerwin

    I agree!


    And the words that come out of God's mouth?  Are THEY living entities that people obey?


    Mike,

    Yes, Poetically.


    But how about King David's words?  Are they also “poetically” living entities that people obeyed?


    Mike,

    Yes, I was speaking poetically there as well.


    Okay. So then ANYONE'S words can POETICALLY be portrayed as entities that go and do what the person who spoke told them to do, right?

    But LITERALLY, nobody's words are really living entities, right?

    #358323
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,20:30)
    Mike,

    Close but he was made in the form of a human which is not consistent with it being the result of him taking on the form of a servant as one is a received action and the other is a performed action.


    Here is the literal Greek translation:

    form of slave having taken

    in likeness of human beings having become

    There is no difference between “received action” and “performed action” in the Greek words. Nor would it mean anything if there was.

    Jesus can easily TAKE ON the form of a servant by BEING MADE in the likeness of a human being. The difference between “performed action” and “received action” doesn't change anything about it.

    #358331
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,04:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,01:13)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,17:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,16:48)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,10:42)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,15:12)
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,

    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,

    THIS IS WHY THE SON WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE CREATION AND MEN ;BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT CREATION BY GOD ,AND THAT IS WHAT HE DID ,

    IT IS OBVIOUS THAT BEING IN THE NATURE OF GOD THEY ARE BOTH SPIRIT BEINGS ;BUT THEIR OWN WORDS ARE NOT THEM BUT OF THEM ,AND YES WHEN THEY TALK THEY ARE MEANINGFUL WORDS ,THEY SAY


    Terra.

    You are close,but not on target.

    **QUOTE:**
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,
    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,**UNQUOTE:**

    1.In the beginning was the Word; not Jesus/he was not born
      yet.
    2.The Word was not created;but brought forth,from inside of
       God out.
    3.Jesus was born flesh/created.
    4.The spirit Jesus went back into the bosom of his Father.
    5.Is sitting next to his Father.

    John saw God sitting on his throne;then he saw the Lamb
    in the mids of the same throne,because they are one.
    **Again the Word was with God**.

    wakeup.


    You playing with words ,and you thinking that I am as dum as a plank ,
    The word = Jesus Christ ,you just do not understand the scriptures Col:1:15-21

    You try to teach what you do not understand ,but wors you tell me that I do not know the scriptures,insulting


    Terra.

    Be honest,and be a man.

    John1.
    —-And the word was with God.
    Tell me: was that Jesus with God?

    wakeup.


    Yes ;THE WORD ” IN HEAVEN HIS CHRIST ;THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;

    THAT CAME TO DOWN FROM THE FATHER TO SAVE MEN ,THIS IS TOTALLY IN HARMONY WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURES EVEN REVELATION ,


    Terra.

    Concentrate:

    In the BEGINNING was the word.(NOT YET JESUS).
    And the Word(NOT YET JESUS) was *with* God.

    NOT Jesus:  because the *WORD* was not yet made flesh.
    After the WORD was made flesh;his name is called Jesus.
    After Jesus went back to heaven; his name is called
    the *Word of God* once more.

    wakeup.


    ???

    YOU SURE YOU WANT TO SAY SOME THING ???

    #358344
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,10:37)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,04:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,01:13)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,17:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,16:48)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,10:42)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,15:12)
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,

    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,

    THIS IS WHY THE SON WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE CREATION AND MEN ;BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT CREATION BY GOD ,AND THAT IS WHAT HE DID ,

    IT IS OBVIOUS THAT BEING IN THE NATURE OF GOD THEY ARE BOTH SPIRIT BEINGS ;BUT THEIR OWN WORDS ARE NOT THEM BUT OF THEM ,AND YES WHEN THEY TALK THEY ARE MEANINGFUL WORDS ,THEY SAY


    Terra.

    You are close,but not on target.

    **QUOTE:**
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,
    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,**UNQUOTE:**

    1.In the beginning was the Word; not Jesus/he was not born
      yet.
    2.The Word was not created;but brought forth,from inside of
       God out.
    3.Jesus was born flesh/created.
    4.The spirit Jesus went back into the bosom of his Father.
    5.Is sitting next to his Father.

    John saw God sitting on his throne;then he saw the Lamb
    in the mids of the same throne,because they are one.
    **Again the Word was with God**.

    wakeup.


    You playing with words ,and you thinking that I am as dum as a plank ,
    The word = Jesus Christ ,you just do not understand the scriptures Col:1:15-21

    You try to teach what you do not understand ,but wors you tell me that I do not know the scriptures,insulting


    Terra.

    Be honest,and be a man.

    John1.
    —-And the word was with God.
    Tell me: was that Jesus with God?

    wakeup.


    Yes ;THE WORD ” IN HEAVEN HIS CHRIST ;THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;

    THAT CAME TO DOWN FROM THE FATHER TO SAVE MEN ,THIS IS TOTALLY IN HARMONY WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURES EVEN REVELATION ,


    Terra.

    Concentrate:

    In the BEGINNING was the word.(NOT YET JESUS).
    And the Word(NOT YET JESUS) was *with* God.

    NOT Jesus:  because the *WORD* was not yet made flesh.
    After the WORD was made flesh;his name is called Jesus.
    After Jesus went back to heaven; his name is called
    the *Word of God* once more.

    wakeup.


    ???

    YOU SURE YOU WANT TO SAY SOME THING ???


    Terra.

    Is there a beam lodged in your eyes?

    wakeup.

    #358355
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,07:47)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,10:37)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 22 2013,04:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2013,01:13)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,17:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,16:48)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,10:42)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,15:12)
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,

    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,

    THIS IS WHY THE SON WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE CREATION AND MEN ;BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEGINNING OF THAT CREATION BY GOD ,AND THAT IS WHAT HE DID ,

    IT IS OBVIOUS THAT BEING IN THE NATURE OF GOD THEY ARE BOTH SPIRIT BEINGS ;BUT THEIR OWN WORDS ARE NOT THEM BUT OF THEM ,AND YES WHEN THEY TALK THEY ARE MEANINGFUL WORDS ,THEY SAY


    Terra.

    You are close,but not on target.

    **QUOTE:**
    THE WORD = JESUS CHRIST =THE SON OF GOD ALWAYS WAS SINS HIS CREATION ,
    GOD CREATED ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON ,THE SON WAS CREATED FROM THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER ;ALL OTHER THINGS WERE CREATED FROM THE NATURE OF THE SON ,**UNQUOTE:**

    1.In the beginning was the Word; not Jesus/he was not born
      yet.
    2.The Word was not created;but brought forth,from inside of
       God out.
    3.Jesus was born flesh/created.
    4.The spirit Jesus went back into the bosom of his Father.
    5.Is sitting next to his Father.

    John saw God sitting on his throne;then he saw the Lamb
    in the mids of the same throne,because they are one.
    **Again the Word was with God**.

    wakeup.


    You playing with words ,and you thinking that I am as dum as a plank ,
    The word = Jesus Christ ,you just do not understand the scriptures Col:1:15-21

    You try to teach what you do not understand ,but wors you tell me that I do not know the scriptures,insulting


    Terra.

    Be honest,and be a man.

    John1.
    —-And the word was with God.
    Tell me: was that Jesus with God?

    wakeup.


    Yes ;THE WORD ” IN HEAVEN HIS CHRIST ;THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;

    THAT CAME TO DOWN FROM THE FATHER TO SAVE MEN ,THIS IS TOTALLY IN HARMONY WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURES EVEN REVELATION ,


    Terra.

    Concentrate:

    In the BEGINNING was the word.(NOT YET JESUS).
    And the Word(NOT YET JESUS) was *with* God.

    NOT Jesus:  because the *WORD* was not yet made flesh.
    After the WORD was made flesh;his name is called Jesus.
    After Jesus went back to heaven; his name is called
    the *Word of God* once more.

    wakeup.


    ???

    YOU SURE YOU WANT TO SAY SOME THING ???


    Terra.

    Is there a beam lodged in your eyes?

    wakeup.


    no ,sliver in the eye ;but i can not see what you say ;because i told you who they are

    #358370
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2013,04:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,20:28)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,06:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,03:40)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,18:12)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But it's not like the words that came out of King David's mouth were some living entity that people obeyed, Kerwin

    I agree!


    And the words that come out of God's mouth?  Are THEY living entities that people obey?


    Mike,

    Yes, Poetically.


    But how about King David's words?  Are they also “poetically” living entities that people obeyed?


    Mike,

    Yes, I was speaking poetically there as well.


    Okay.  So then ANYONE'S words can POETICALLY be portrayed as entities that go and do what the person who spoke told them to do, right?

    But LITERALLY, nobody's words are really living entities, right?


    Mike,

    Correct, though seldom do the importance or another characteristic of a man's word need emphasizing.

    #358372
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 21 2013,08:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 21 2013,05:32)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 20 2013,18:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,21:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 20 2013,11:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,13:26)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 20 2013,05:21)
    Kerwin.

    Can you elaborate on these scriptures?

    Hebrews 7:1   For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

     Hebrews 7:2   To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

     Hebrews 7:3   Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Hebrews 7
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    … even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    The AKJV does not seem to make a whole lot of sense in that Jesus is a type of Melchisec and Melchisec is a type of the Son.  That probably means I am missing information or misprocessing what I have.  Offhand I would say it is making the case that Melchisec is like unto an angel and Jesus is like unto Melchisec but the definite article is there and that seems to invalidate that interpretation.  Another interpretation is that the writer is talking to the Hebrews as one Jew to another and the Son, according to a Jew named Philo, is the Word by which God preferred the ages.  More research is required.

    Jesus has both a mother and a father, though the later is not a father of his flesh.  He has an end of days.  These things are written about him in Scripture, though not about Melchisec .    He is now like unto an angel, as all that follow him will be.  He is also called the Son of God.   He is both the Priest and the King though Melchisec is the one his order is based on.  He is the King of both peace and righteousness.


    Kerwin.

    The is no need for more research.
    Besides,who is going to do the reseach.

    The Word of God was manifested in the flesh.
    He was translated into flesh. Not born.

    That makes him the *FIRST* king and high priest in jerusalem.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I do research because I do not choose to be ignorant and a plaything of deceivers who prey on my lack of knowledge.  I also choose to armor others against the same fate. In doing such research you must be led by the Spirit of God.

    Quote
    The Word of God was manifested in the flesh.
    He was translated into flesh. Not born.

    Your words are correct.  The Word that preferred the ages was revealed in the flesh and changed from the state of being a thing into being flesh.

    It sounds like you agree follow the idea the Word, though not a being, is the Son of God as Philo teaches.

    Jesus, on the other hand, was born in Bethlehem.

    Matthew 2:1
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


    Kerwin.

    The Word of God is not a thing.
    He created all things with his wisdom.
    He had glory with God of whom the word
    belongs to.
    God brought forth his Word as a being,full of Gods own wisdom.

    This being emptied himself of all his powers,to become a
    humble human.  And his name is called Jesus.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    It can be hard to understand when God choose to verbally represent a thing as a person to make a point.  One place he does this is Hebrews 11:3.

    Hebrews 11:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    The “worlds” were framed by God and his Word was the device he used to do so.  God chose to give the appearance that his Word was a being and not just a thing.  

    We know it is not but certain men came into the conversation of Christ and spouted deceptions either or both because of their lack of knowledge or corruption that led to us seeing certain passages in light of their deceptions.  

    One of these passages is John 1:3 that paraphrases Hebrews 11:3.  The idea expressed in both passages is the same but these men teach that that in one it is the Word that does the work while in the other it is a being called the Word that does the work.

    The only being explicitly mentioned as doing the work of creation in the Genesis accounts is Jehovah.


    Kerwin.

    It seems that you are depending more on man's wisdom.
    With your research.

    The universe is framed by the Word of God.
    You are picturing it as God holding the universe
    in his arms. That's not the case;it is his spirit
    that's keeping all things together.

    You are bound to Christ; does not mean that Christ
    personally is holding your hand;but it is his spirit.

    Christ is not personally in us;but his spirit is in us.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    My research is one way I obey God's command to seek knowledge. Jesus also taught us to ask, seek, and knock. It is the spirit of the knowledge that tells us whether it is man's or God's and it is the Spirit we use to test it.

    As far as I can see I have no disagreement with what you say. I am not sure my knowledge is great enough to say it is true but it sounds reasonable.

    #358374
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2013,04:38)

    But LITERALLY, nobody's words are really living entities, right?


    Mike,

    Correct……….


    So if even God's words aren't LITERALLY living entities, who is the Word of God that became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    Because that doesn't seem “poetic” to me. It seems as if a literal person dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    #358375
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2013,13:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,06:38)
    T,

    Quote
    no; scriptures are saying that the maiden was called Marry,and that she will be with child ;THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW ;ALL OF YOUR OTHER WORDS YOU HAVE ADDED TO IT BY YOUR IMAGINATION;

    Really!

    Galatians 4:4
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    4 but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Who do you thing God's Son that this passage declares is made of a woman is?

    Are you going to disagree with it and say he was not made of a  woman?  It sure sounds like you are doing just that.

    Romans 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Who is the seed of David Jesus' flesh is made of?

    Are you going to declare that this passage is wrong and you are right?   It sure sounds like it.

    Luke 2:21
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

    You seem to be of the opinion this passage is also wrong as well.

    Are you sure you want to stubbornly cleave to the idea these three witnesses of God are wrong and your chosen devices are right?


    First ,Gal 4:4
    You do not believe that scripture the way it is written,

    Before saying he be born from a women

    You should address the therm ,that God as send him to be born of a women,

    How could God send his only begotten son if he did not existed yet ???

    All the other verses are after the birth, NO,human father ,

    So address Gal:4:4


    T,

    The passage does not state where Jesus was sent from or when he was sent. It does reason that Jesus was made of a woman and made under the law when he was sent.

    #358376
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,20:30)
    Mike,

    Close but he was made in the form of a human which is not consistent with it being the result of him taking on the form of a servant as one is a received action and the other is a performed action.


    Here is the literal Greek translation:

    form     of slave     having taken    

    in     likeness     of human beings     having become

    There is no difference between “received action” and “performed action” in the Greek words.  Nor would it mean anything if there was.

    Jesus can easily TAKE ON the form of a servant by BEING MADE in the likeness of a human being.  The difference between “performed action” and “received action” doesn't change anything about it.


    Mike,

    There are passive and active voice verbs in Greek. From what I know active verbs are performed actions and the passive are received actions. The middle is both.

    In English Jesus took on the form of a servant and God made him in the form of a human. Jesus is a servant during his whole mortal life. He even demonstrates that by washing the feet of his students.

    #358377
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    SPIRITUAL FLESH* IS A WORD ADDED TO  COVER UP THE ERRORS MADE IN INTERPRETING THE PROPHESIES.;FOR THERE IS NO SUCH AS SPIRITUAL FLESH.
    ITS EITHER FLESH OR SPIRIT.  

    Wakeup,

    Do you want me to believe your corrupted opinion LIKE WE ALL ARE, and IGNORE THIS:

    After resurrection, Jesus Christ's body no longer opposed its soul; it demanded nothing for itself than the soul wanted, which had completely united with the spirit ….This was the state of Jesus, the man, when He had accomplished His act …. It was a state of utter dedication to God and total renouncement of everything belonging to the world …. His body, being entirely spiritualised, was totally independent from the earth and its laws, i.e. the spiritual substances of His human body had merged with those of the soul and effectively subordinated themselves to the spirit's will, which was most closely united with the Father-Spirit, and thus the earthly body together with the soul became one with the eternal Deity; His fusion was so extraordinarily significant and entails such far-reaching consequences which the soul is incapable of understanding as long as it hasn't found the union with God itself. It was an
    act of immense self-denial, profoundest love and boundless dedication to God …. ;The soul of Jesus, the man, simultaneously drew its external shell,the body, into the sphere of God's emanation of love, and both His soul andHis body were permeated by God's spirit of love, by His strength and His light …. Jesus, the man, was full of strength and light …. He was powerful and wise, and every creature obeyed Him, the whole of Creation complied with Him, for God was in Him in all fullness since neither the soul nor the body offered Him resistance any longer, and this boundless dedication also resulted in God's boundless activity; …. Now it was God Himself Who manifested Himself in everything Jesus did and said. God's love takes hold of everything that hands itself over to Him, it permeates every creation as soon as its inherent spirit does not offer any resistance to the divine love …. Wherever this resistance is removed there can only be the love of God, therefore …. since God is love …. God can only be where He finds no opposition resisting Him …. Everything of God is divine as long as it offers no resistance. Only resistance turns God's creation into something external to Him until it relinquishes its resistance of its own accord …. Jesus, the
    man, was utterly devoted to God and thus no longer external to God but fused with Him, thus One with God …. and therefore totally transfigured, because the union with God is a state of bright light …. And when Jesus Christ passed away from this world He took His body along with His soul
    into eternity, for nothing adhered to Him any more which required further development, both body and soul were perfect; every spiritual substance was so inclined towards God that it was permeated by God's light and love,that it was like God, because it had completely united with the eternal Deity; ….

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #358378
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 22 2013,18:09)

    Quote
    SPIRITUAL FLESH* IS A WORD ADDED TO  COVER UP THE ERRORS MADE IN INTERPRETING THE PROPHESIES.;FOR THERE IS NO SUCH AS SPIRITUAL FLESH.
    ITS EITHER FLESH OR SPIRIT.  

    Wakeup,

    Do you want me to believe your corrupted opinion LIKE WE ALL ARE, and IGNORE THIS:

    After resurrection, Jesus Christ's body no longer opposed its soul; it demanded nothing for itself than the soul wanted, which had completely united with the spirit ….This was the state of Jesus, the man, when He had accomplished His act …. It was a state of utter dedication to God and total renouncement of everything belonging to the world …. His body, being entirely spiritualised, was totally independent from the earth and its laws, i.e. the spiritual substances of His human body had merged with those of the soul and effectively subordinated themselves to the spirit's will, which was most closely united with the Father-Spirit, and thus the earthly body together with the soul became one with the eternal Deity; His fusion was so extraordinarily significant and entails such far-reaching consequences which the soul is incapable of understanding as long as it hasn't found the union with God itself. It was an
    act of immense self-denial, profoundest love and boundless dedication to God …. ;The soul of Jesus, the man, simultaneously drew its external shell,the body, into the sphere of God's emanation of love, and both His soul andHis body were permeated by God's spirit of love, by His strength and His light …. Jesus, the man, was full of strength and light …. He was powerful and wise, and every creature obeyed Him, the whole of Creation complied with Him, for God was in Him in all fullness since neither the soul nor the body offered Him resistance any longer, and this boundless dedication also resulted in God's boundless activity; …. Now it was God Himself Who manifested Himself in everything Jesus did and said. God's love takes hold of everything that hands itself over to Him, it permeates every creation as soon as its inherent spirit does not offer any resistance to the divine love …. Wherever this resistance is removed there can only be the love of God, therefore …. since God is love …. God can only be where He finds no opposition resisting Him …. Everything of God is divine as long as it offers no resistance. Only resistance turns God's creation into something external to Him until it relinquishes its resistance of its own accord …. Jesus, the
    man, was utterly devoted to God and thus no longer external to God but fused with Him, thus One with God …. and therefore totally transfigured, because the union with God is a state of bright light …. And when Jesus Christ passed away from this world He took His body along with His soul
    into eternity, for nothing adhered to Him any more which required further development, both body and soul were perfect; every spiritual substance was so inclined towards God that it was permeated by God's light and love,that it was like God, because it had completely united with the eternal Deity; ….

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi carmel.

    So much said,but I can not correlate it with any scripture.
    It seems to be a new age philosophy.

    wakeup.

    #358380
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body. That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh. Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.

    #358381
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,19:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    Kerwin.

    If you are speaking of physical flesh,yes there are many differnt kinds of flesh.
    One of them is human flesh.
    But all spirit bodies are one; there is no flesh/spirit body.

    The last man Adam was made a *QUICKENING SPIRIT*

    And we will be like him; a quickening spirit.
    The flesh; any flesh perishes.
    You can not name any angel,
    that has different flesh, but spirit.

    wakeup.

    #358382
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Sep. 22 2013,18:34][/quote]

    Quote
    So much said,but I can not correlate it with any scripture.
    It seems to be  a new age philosophy.

    Wakeup,

    From my side entirely according to scripture!

    Also:

    The Holy Spirit blows wherever He wants, and no one knows where He comes from and where He goes!

    It would be INTERESTING TO POST SOMETHING WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU IS NOT SCRIPTURAL, SO I CAN CONTRADICT YOU!

    By the way, I am still waiting for your answer to the other longer post previous to this one, and also for the one in the other thread under the topic:

    Quran proven 100% true

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #358389
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Sep. 22 2013,20:50][/quote]

    Quote
    The last man Adam was made a *QUICKENING SPIRIT*

    Wakeup,

    a quickening spirit means:  A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS FLESH BODY IS NOT LIKE OURS A DEAD SUBSTANCE BUT ALIVE SINCE HIS ORIGIN IS FROM THE ETERNAL FATHER,  EVEN IF AFTER HE DIED HIS DEATH!

    HE CONFIRMED THIS FIRST WHEN HE SAID:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF:

    SO TO CLARIFY, IT MEANS THAT AS THE FATHER, SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF,

    THE SON ALTHOUGH HE IS A FLESH BODY, HAS ALSO LIFE IN HIMSELF, SO HIS FLESH BODY CAN NEVER REALLY DIE LIKE OURS! BUT WOULD MAINTAIN ITS LIFE THROUGH DEATH ITSELF!

    HE CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE SAID :

    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, REFERRING TO HIS FLESH BODY, AND I WILL RAISE IT UP IN THREE DAYS

    HE DIDN'T SAY MY FATHER RAISE IT UP BUT I TO MAKE US AWARE THAT HIS FLESH BODY HAS LIFE IN ITSELF, AND TRANSFORMED ITSELF INTO A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    NOW Explain:

    Luke 24:38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    39 SEE MY HANS AND FEET, THAT IT IS I MYSELF; HANDLE, AND SEE: FOR A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES

    SO JESUS HAS NO BLOOD NOW,  BUT FLESH AND BONES!

    JESUS POSSESS BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT ATTRIBUTES AS ONE ENTITY! AND HE CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN ANY WAY HE WANTS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #358397
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,14:52)
    Wakeup,

    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body.  That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.  Don't you believe all flesh is not the same and that:

    That some man will say, How was Jesus raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that flesh that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a flesh as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own flesh.

    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    There is no spirit body in Scripture, it is a teaching of men.


    k

    Quote
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body. That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.

    that is stretching the scriptures to the extreme ,it does not say that or mean that at all

    #358435
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,02:52)
    You told Carmel that there is no spiritual flesh in Scripture and yet Scripture speaks of a natural body and a spiritual body. That is to say a natural flesh and a spiritual flesh.


    Kerwin,

    Listen to Wakeup. There is no such thing as “spiritual flesh” mentioned in ANY scripture.

    There are flesh bodies, and spirit bodies.

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