John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #107127
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Our brother T8 and many others have more than one God here. Father is BIG God and Jesus is small god. I think it is clear for you brother WJ from the view point of T8.

    #107129
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi all,
    Here are some arguements on Jn 1:1 which I have taken from a site. Please gothrough with open mind.

    ” In the beginning was the Word,  
      and the Word was with God,  
      and the Word was God.”        (John 1:1)  
    Perceived by the “man of extraordinary faith”: The verse says;  
    In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

    Explanation:
      The text does not read “In the beginning was Jesus”. John did not write the word Jesus in his original manuscript. If he had meant that, he could have simply used the name Jesus. John wrote what he knew to be the Truth. In the beginning was the “Spoken Word” (i.e. God's Command). “Jesus” happens to be a SUBSTITUTION of the Greek word “Logos” used by the apostle. In reality the bible readers are implying, suggesting, alluding or insinuating the name of Jesus. The concept of SUBSTITUTING the original Greek term 'Logos' with “Jesus” has been the traditional norm for the past many centuries. Hence it is not easy to believe otherwise. Is this “substitution” any where closer to the literal translation of the Greek word “Logos”? The answer is, No.  

       The Greek term 'Logos' is derived from the root word 'Lego' meaning “to speak”.  The literal translation of the word 'Logos' is “something spoken, thought”. A Command that is spoken. A thought that is expressed. The verification of this literal translation is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary also translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.  

    With the traditional “substitution” the verse reads; “and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be “with” God, and “was” God, as well? It defies the logic(the chain of thoughts).

    The literal translation reads:
         In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)  

    The opening of John's Gospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”  
    (Genesis 1:1/ 3).

    The translation of 'Logos' as “Divine” in the last line is based upon the usage of Greek grammar. Here is the brief explanation for those who are interested in the grammar. In the second line, the phrase used by John for “God” is 'ho theo', meaning 'the God'. In the last line it is simply 'theo', the definitive article 'the' is missing. It is not written because here  'Theo' is a predicate of the preceding subject. The predicate is used to denote the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject. In this instance the nature of the God's spoken command happens to be “Divine”.

    In 'New translation of the Bible' (1922) by the famous Dr. James Moffatt, it reads; “the Logos was Divine”. And, the similar translations appear in 'The Complete Bible – An American Translation' (Smith-Goodspeed); 'The Authentic New Testament' by Hugh J. Schonfield and the translations done by; Haenchen, Lyder Brun and Madsen.

    Notes:
    John 1:2 & 3 would also translate perfectly with the literal translation and further compliment the opening passages from the Book Of Genesis.  The Greek word  'houtos' {3778} should be literally translated as “the same” (meaning, the spoken word),  instead of “he”. In the King James Version, it reads; “The same was in the beginning with God”, which supports the above clarification. Hence, John 1:2 & 3 should read:  

    It (the Command) was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through it (the Command) and without it (the Command) not one thing came into being.
    Please read Genesis 1: 3, 6, 11, 14, 20 & 24. It will compel the readers to admit the Truth.  In Isaiah 45:12 God says;
    I made the earth and created humankind upon it;
    it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
    and I commanded all their hosts.
    Those who prefer to substitute the “Logos” with Jesus and read; “All things came into being through him (Jesus)”, are requested to read Mt. 19:4.   While drawing the attention of the Pharisees to the Old Testament passages (e.g. Gen. 1:27, 5:2 and Is. 45:12), Jesus clearly points out that it was God Himself (not he), who created the mankind.
    Notes: John 1: 4  
    With the literal translation John 1:4 would read: In it (the spoken Command) was life, and the life was the light for all people.  

    Notes: John 1: 6 to 9 Here we aretold that John the Baptist was sent into this world in advance.  He himself was not the light. But John was sent as a witness to testify that light, so that all might believe through him in what was to come. This true light, which enlightens everyone , was coming into this world after him. The rest is easy to follow once we understand the most important verse number 14.

    Notes: John 1:14 And the “Logos” (the spoken word, Command, wherein was life and light) became flesh (by entering the womb of Virgin Mary). No Bible reader can deny the fact that whenever God wanted to create anything (e.g. Light, Vegetation, Living Creatures, etc.,) He had been using His Commands to do just that. In this instance, He chose to make His Righteous Messiah through this unique “one of a kind” (John 3:16) Command.  Briefly, it was the Command of God that became flesh (the body of Jesus within Mary). This also explains the Virgin Birth through Mary.  

    To say that God Himself became flesh (Jesus, upon this earth) is not only a grave blasphemy but has been explicitly and repeatedly negated by Jesus himself, as shown from the beginning of this article. The only other alternative would be to say; the God Incarnate came to this earth and the God made an utterly false statement, concerning the CRUCIAL issue of having “the eternal life”, in John 17:3.  The choice is yours, which to adopt and what to reject.

    Study Supportive Passage:
    If John wanted to write “Jesus”, why would he write “Logos” instead? There is no record of Jesus being ever addressed as “Logos” by any one in the New Testament.
    “…if any one proclaims  to you a Gospel contrary to what you have received, let that one be accursed.” Galatians 1:9.  

    May God bless you
    Adam

    #107130
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    mr adam,
    simply command can't create anything.if so, man's command also should create some or the other little things.therefore, word is a person in/with god (form of God) who created evrything.before genesis 1:1/3 word(jesus) exists with all his glory and lost everything to save you.holy spirit knows the depths of the thoughts of God and word(jesus) is implementor/executor for God's thoughts.
    pulivarthy

    #107131
    gollamudi
    Participant

    God's word is His command

    #107136
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
    No dodging here. It seems you are the one dodging by playing word games with the Greek word “theos”.


    It's only a game to you WJ. Scripture has a variety of ways of using theos. You should know that by now.

    #107137
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

    Why would he make such a claim?


    If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, then it makes perfect sense.

    #107138
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
    Yes I can hear the Apostles saying “(in a sense) you are my Lord and my God”.


    If you cannot hear that, then perhaps you can hear that they are referring to Jesus and his God.

    But please just don't repeat your teaching that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, because for us there is one God the Father and you are only embarrassing yourself by contradicting this in front of everyone.

    #107139
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I have some advice for you WJ.

    If Jesus is the Most High God and your God, then why not listen to what your God has said:

  • “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”.
  • Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
  • Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new  Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    You are obviously not listening to your God are you?

    Doesn't compute, doesn't compute. I can see the smoke coming out of your ears from here WJ.

#107142
GeneBalthrop
Participant

Adam…..you have correctly present John 1:1, brother, if John was meaning Jesus he simply would have written it there instead the word Logos. May God continue to bless you with understanding of the truth.

love to you and yours…………….gene

#107148

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,01:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
No dodging here. It seems you are the one dodging by playing word games with the Greek word “theos”.


It's only a game to you WJ. Scripture has a variety of ways of using theos. You should know that by now.


t8

But like a broken record you keep saying the same thing, yet you show us no examples of such.

Listen closely to the question if you can hear it….

Can you show us one scripture in the NT that ascribes the word “theos” to any other being with “divine” attributes or qualities other than Yeshua?

You cannot even give an example of an Angel of God in the NT that is referred to as “theos”.

If you can't then you should concede to what and who the Apostles claim Yeshua is and that the definition of the word “Theos” is not divine.

as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

Yet you continue to appose these scriptures by imposing your own interpretation of the word “theos” on them.

Is it that you are to proud to admit that these scriptures mean what they say and agree with others like John 1:1, 1:18, Heb 1:8, 1 John 5:20?

Really it is quite amazing how you continue teaching men and woman to see Yeshua as less than the Father in nature therefore causing them to create a false image of the invisible God.

Scary!

If the invisible God makes himself visible then is not what you see God? ???

Quite simple.

WJ

#107149

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,01:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

Why would he make such a claim?


If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, then it makes perfect sense.


Hi t8

If the invisible God makes himself visible then is not what you see God? ???

You insist on reducing the nature of Yeshua to a mere man or a demi-god.

Why is that t8?

Again you have not answered the questions. But I understand that your answers may incriminate against you.

But here they are again just in case you might try.

Again, can you explain to me how Yeshua’s nature is less than the Fathers?

What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn’t?

In which way should I honour Yeshua less than the Father?

Why should I not call him my Lord and my God when the Apostles clearly did?

WJ

#107152

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,19:39)
Yes I can hear the Apostles saying “(in a sense) you are my Lord and my God”.


Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,01:18)

If you cannot hear that, then perhaps you can hear that they are referring to Jesus and his God.


Cannot hear? There is no “in a sense” Yeshua is God. These are your words and you are making inference and adding to scriptures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (in a sense) God. John 1:1

Right!

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,01:18)

But please just don't repeat your teaching that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, because for us there is one God the Father and you are only embarrassing yourself by contradicting this in front of everyone.


I am not ashamed or embarrassed to call Yeshua my God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

WJ

#107154
charity
Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,14:02)
Hi WJ,
The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
The earth will be a destroyed by fire.


The same fire that destroys the wicked.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Hi Nick and t8
The house of David, executes Judgment, at the end of the Night?
Jer 21:12O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver [him that is] spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

Elijah drew Fire down from Heaven a consumed his wet alter, and those whom he mocked, had no fire.
The days when the earth are to be a consuming fire Malich;4 Elijah is to return, again with his fire, as a earth God, Identified by people as John the baptist, whom begins to Baptize wet again.

A the Judgment started back then for a god the brough the Light of morning into the world, and then returned it darkness cutting his life off?
WHERE ARE WE NOW, THAT FIRE WENT OUT AND WE CAN NOT BE QUENCHED?
innocent IS TO BE MADE TO live IN judgment DAYS THAT ARE PUNISHMENT FOR THE ALREADY DEPARTED perished, FOR THE EVIL THEY created, that has no quenching, WE LIVE THE HELL of their Gospels, HERE AFTER? unless The House of David rise again to abolish the battle of alters?

seriously, I don't want his head on a platter or anything, I just want his Matches and flammables Taken off Him, so he dosen 't start a Judgment fire, the false prophets and beast call down fire from heaven to earth, please hear the mocking birds singing, even going to Heaven in a chariot? spoiling AND STEALING THE FIRST BEGOTTEN SON lime light. if you please????

oh its Saturday night again!!!

charity
:)

#107156
Proclaimer
Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 27 2008,09:23)
I am not ashamed or embarrassed to call Yeshua my God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

WJ


But your God has said the following:

“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”.

Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

What are you going to do about it?

Do you believe your God or not?

#107158

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,01:22)
I have some advice for you WJ.

If Jesus is the Most High God and your God, then why not listen to what your God has said:

  • “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”.
  • Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
  • Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new  Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    You are obviously not listening to your God are you?

    Doesn't compute, doesn't compute. I can see the smoke coming out of your ears from here WJ.


  • Hi t8

    None of the scriptures you mention negates the Deity of Yeshua. The Father also calls Yeshua God.

    My God also inspired the following through his servants…

  • For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6
  • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET
  • No one has ever seen God. “The only one, himself God“, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET
  • And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
  • as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
  • From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
  • but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God“, is forever and ever,24 and a righteous scepte is the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:10

    BTW t8, you keep insisting that the word “theos” can also refer to Angels of God, for which you have no scripture to support that view, yet here we see in Heb 1:8 a contrast with the Angels of God and Yeshua, (theos).

    Here is what the NET says…

    24tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (qeos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ.
    Source!

    But since you are in the habit of contradicting the Scholars and Greek rules, I am quite sure this probably means nothing to you.

  • And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20

    When you can show me that scripturally I am not to refer to Yeshua as my God then you will have a point.

    Scripturally my cofession is sound. How about yours? ???

    WJ

  • #107159
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 27 2008,11:14)
    None of the scriptures you mention negates the Deity of Yeshua. The Father also calls Yeshua God.


    The deity you mention is viewed in this light:

    Colossians 2:9-10
    9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
    10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    Notice how we have fullness in Christ and that doesn't make us Christ? Similarly, in Christ is the fullness of deity and that doesn't make him the Most High God.

    The verses I gave you negate that Jesus is the Most High God.

    Couple that with the following and it is slam dunk:

    John 14:28
    “You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    Mark 10:17-18
    17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
    asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Luke 8:28
    When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!”

    Ask yourself this question WJ.

    Should we believe the above scriptures or your Trinity doctrine?

    #107161

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2008,10:11)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 27 2008,09:23)
    I am not ashamed or embarrassed to call Yeshua my God.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

    WJ


    But your God has said the following:

    “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”.

    Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new  Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    What are you going to do about it?

    Do you believe your God or not?


    t8

    I am going to still believe Yeshua is my God, One with the Father and the Spirit, as the scriptures clearly state of which you deny and white out.

    Your theology does not grasp that oneness that the Father and Yeshua and the Spirit share in nature.

    2:6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, 2:7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.14 2:8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death – even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8

    The Greek term translated form indicates a correspondence with reality. Thus the meaning of this phrase is that Christ was truly God. (NET)

    But you would say that Yeshua emptied himself of his “nature”, (more inference), and that he ceased to be divine.

    The Word/God who is Spirit did not become flesh but came in the flesh and was Tabernacled among us and found in the likeness of men, therefore without diminishing his nature as God was seen and known as God in the flesh.

    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall “call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us“. Matt 1:23

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18

    So Yeshua as a man referred to the Father as his God.

    This is not a contradiction to the Trinitarian view of Yeshua being both man and God.

    But, you on the other hand fail to define who or what Yeshua is. You say he is not just a mere man, yet you say he is not God, so he must be something in between like a demigod.

    Demigod.

    The Father refers to Yeshua as God as well as the Apostles.

    That is not enough for you though, you just ignore those scriptures.

    And you still haven’t answered the questions t8.

    Again, can you explain to me how Yeshua’s nature is less than the Fathers?

    What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn’t?

    In which way should I honour Yeshua less than the Father?

    Why should I not call him my Lord and my God when the Apostles clearly did?

    WJ

    #107163
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    The Father refers to Yeshua as God as well as the Apostles.

    Out of curiosity, where? And, does the Father ever refer to Jesus as “my God” as Jesus did a few times?

    Is Jesus the God of the Father, as the Father is of Jesus?

    Sure, Jesus can be called God, for truly he is a mighty one. But he isn't a mighty one compared to The Father, so he is never called the God of the Father, but rather, it's the other way around.

    #107177
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ Sep. 27 2008,10:01)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:53)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,14:02)
    Hi WJ,
    The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
    The earth will be a destroyed by fire.


    The same fire that destroys the wicked.

    2 Peter 3:7
    By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


    Hi Nick and t8
    The house of David, executes Judgment, at the end of the Night?
    Jer 21:12O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver [him that is] spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

    Elijah drew Fire down from Heaven a consumed his wet alter, and those whom he mocked, had no fire.
    The days when the earth are to be a consuming fire Malich;4 Elijah is to return, again with his fire, as a earth God, Identified by people as John the baptist, whom begins to Baptize wet again.

    A the Judgment started back then for a god the brough the Light of morning into the world, and then returned it darkness cutting his life off?
    WHERE ARE WE NOW, THAT FIRE WENT OUT AND WE CAN NOT BE QUENCHED?
    innocent IS TO BE MADE TO live IN judgment DAYS THAT ARE PUNISHMENT FOR THE ALREADY DEPARTED perished, FOR THE EVIL THEY created, that has no quenching, WE LIVE THE HELL of their Gospels, HERE AFTER? unless The House of David rise again to abolish the battle of alters?

    seriously, I don't want his head on a platter or anything, I just want his Matches and flammables  Taken off Him, so he dosen 't start a Judgment fire, the false prophets and beast call down fire from heaven to earth, please hear the mocking birds singing, even going to Heaven in a chariot?  spoiling AND STEALING THE FIRST BEGOTTEN SON lime light. if you please????

    oh its Saturday night again!!!

    charity
    :)


    Here are the fathers they listened too, Father Elijah, returned and was John the Baptist. and many are waiting for Jesus to return? he is not the pledged first?

    seriously, I don't want his head on a platter or anything, I just want his Matches and flammables  Taken off Him, so he dosen 't start a Judgment fire, the false prophets and beast call down fire from heaven to earth, please hear the mocking birds singing, even going to Heaven in a chariot?  spoiling AND STEALING THE FIRST BEGOTTEN SON lime light. if you please????

    oh its Saturday night again!!! I'm No scholar but can you guys add this up and see it dose not add in Maths? John@bull&co

    charity

    #107179
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi charity,
    Are you relying on gnostic ideas?

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